128 Surfing Etiquette & the Evolution of Surf Culture with Holly Beck

Is the surfer catching the most waves always the best surfer in the lineup - or just the loudest?

Surfing is more crowded than ever, and the line between etiquette and entitlement in the lineup is getting blurry. Whether you're new to surfing or a seasoned local, understanding the evolving ethics of surf culture can make or break your session - and everyone else’s.

• Hear Holly Beck share how her transformation from competitive surfer to retreat leader changed her perspective on surf etiquette.

• Learn why the unspoken “rules” of the lineup are more complex than just "who's deepest," and how understanding nuance can lead to a better surf experience.

• Discover how surf culture can shift towards empathy and inclusivity without sacrificing skill, tradition, or respect. 

Tune in to hear a refreshingly real and nuanced conversation that will challenge how you think about surfing, sharing waves, and what it truly means to be the best surfer in the water.

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Transcript:

Michael Frampton: . That's a good segue into what we're gonna talk about today, but there's another thing that's, , for those listening, we're gonna talk about etiquette today, soon, but let me ask you, here's a question that I've been asking guests recently, which I think ties into the, the broader topic of what we're gonna discuss today is, is surfing a sport or is it an art?

Holly Beck: I think it depends. I think it could be either, depending on the participant. I think that for me, when I was a competitive surfer, then it was sport. And now that I'm not a competitive surfer, then for me it's more of an art. But I think that different people can, can make that choice and be right.

You know, that both, both answers could be right, depending on the person and how they approach it.

Michael Frampton: Okay.

Holly Beck: What do you think?

Michael Frampton: I, I agree with that. I, I I, I think it's a, well, I think it's a sport, obviously if you're in a surfing competition and you're being judged, you know, it's a sporting competition.

And in those situations, surfing is a sport. However, when you were to watch the replay of John John surfing his final winning wave, it's pretty hard to argue how artistic and dance like the way he moves is, and I would, he hesitate to, to guess that he's just in the zone at trying to be one with the wave and express himself through surfing rather than, oh, I gotta hit the lip three times to get to the beach, to score a, an 8.7 that I need.

Maybe sometimes he thinks like that, but I just think the, the, the best in the world, they treat competitive surfing like a sport, except when they're actually surfing, when they're actually standing up on the wave. That's when they're performing an art form. They just, all the competitive stuff, all the rules and regulations of , paddling around priority, all that jazz.

The sporting stuff seems to sort of get, it should be forgotten about once you're up on the wave and then you're an artist essentially. Um, there's no finish. I wonder

Holly Beck: if you could say the same thing about the greats in things that I think most of us would say are a sport like soccer or football, , my son is really into soccer and so I've been learning about soccer.

I didn't play soccer growing up, but we've been watching messy, you know, videos of messy and all of, you know, the compilation on YouTube of the amazing goals that he's able to score and the different ways that he's able to do it. And I think when you mentioned Jonjo on his winning wave, I kind of had that same thought of like, if you are so great.

At whatever it is that you're doing and you're in the flow, like the different ways of scoring a goal or even shooting a basket, you know, with the hang time and the style of the way that your arm is , at that point it's going beyond just, I need to get this ball into the goal, or I need to get this ball into the basket.

And it's like the flare of how you do it that makes it into an art.

Michael Frampton: I totally agree. I think messy is an artist. I think the difference is though, a football game, the score, if the ball goes in the goal, you know, there's a hard line you win. Like, like a running race is a great, like there's no arguing. You either won the race or you didn't.

It doesn't matter whether the second place looked more beautiful doing it, this, they still came second. Whereas in surfing, we're almost judged on how artistic we look when we are actually surfing. The fastest surfer doesn't necessarily win. It's the most beautiful way that you surf with the wave that you've been given.

So I'd almost argue that the sport of surfing is judged from an artistic perspective far more similar to gym gymnastics in the Olympics, for example.

Holly Beck: Yeah, for sure. That makes sense. Mm-hmm.

Michael Frampton: But

Holly Beck: I, again, I feel like the, the difference in, well, at least the, the way that I interpreted your initial question is like how you are approaching it.

You know, if there's like a, a sporting mindset of like my fitness and my training, and I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna perform a certain, I guess even using the word perform kind of messes it up. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna achieve a certain set of things versus I'm going to maintain my flexibility so that I can go out and perform my.

Stance with the wave. So maybe it's just, I, I just noticed that my relationship to surfing has definitely changed. And, you know, 10 years ago I would answer your question differently than I answer it now. And I don't think that surfing has changed. I'm the one that's changed.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, I guess my argument is that for most of my listeners, I, if you wanna get better at surfing, I think it's better to think of it as an art form rather than a sport.

'cause it sort of takes the competitiveness away from it. 'cause often when we think of sport, we think of competition, whereas surfing outside of competition, 99% of people listening to this probably more have no, um, have never competed in a surfing competition and have no desire to.

However, they do want to get better at surfing and I like to sort of think of, , surfing as more like music than it is tennis.

Holly Beck: Well, and then I guess you have to ask the question like, what does it mean to be better at surfing? Is it better because you're able to catch more waves, you're able to ride bigger waves, you are able to perform more advanced maneuvers?

Or is it because you're able to go out there and connect with the ocean and feel the glide and have fun? Because for some people it might be really good at at the first and really bad at the second. And are they really better surfers because they can do Hess, but they're getting angry and they're making enemies and everybody in the lineup hates them.

Does that make them a better surfer than somebody that's just paddling out and enjoying the experience and connecting with the other surfers and the water and ride standing up and having a beautiful long ride where they kick out of control of their board? Is that a better surfer?

Michael Frampton: Well, exactly.

And you hit on my point. I think that a lot of people, especially young beginners, , the way that they think about surfing is bastardized by the surf industry and the surfing media where they think, oh, a good surfer is someone who surfs a shortboard and does three to the beach. Whereas actually, if you think about surfing as not a, not a sport, but more of an art form, more like music, then you can actually sit down and go, actually, what does good surfing mean to me?

And then there's such a broad spectrum of what that means. Maybe it is. Yeah. I do it actually. Damn it. I do want to show off and do three to beach and owning that and doing it is gonna make you better. Or I think for most of us listening, it's actually, you know, I just maybe surfing a bigger board and catching.

Waves over here away from the crowd that aren't, don't peel as much, but I get more of them and it's just more about me adventure, surfing and connecting with the ocean. Actually, maybe that's more getting better at doing that, getting better at surfing that wave over there that no one else surfs or whatever it is.

If you think of surfing as an art form, then you get to choose your genre of surfing and dive into that and decide what it is more rather than just, I would need to get the latest pop out shortboard model that so-and-so's riding and the wetsuit that he but, and the clothes or whatever. I just think so many people have been blindsided by the surf industry and the surf media as to what surfing is and when you change your whole philosophy.

Define what your own surfing is and what you want out of it, then not only are you gonna be better at surfing, you're gonna be, you're gonna have a better attitude in the water. You're gonna be more fun to surf with. Um, blah blah blah. Which kind of leads us into the etiquette side of things. 'cause I think that ties into it quite nicely.

Like if you are literally paddling out at a crowded surf break in a short, on a shortboard, and you want to just catch lots of waves and pretend that you're John John, there's a time and a place to do it. And if you're gonna do it at trestles, there's a different etiquette than if you were going to, you know, paddle a longboard out at, at Noosa on a, on a Kneehigh windless day.

You know, the, the, those are two completely different situations and I think the etiquette needs to be, I don't think there's any one way of thinking about surf etiquette.

Holly Beck: Well, I, I like what you said about it being specific to the, the situation and the different spot that you're in and, and that etiquette is like, there is a general set of like rules and also there's a lot of gray area, and also the rules change based on the situation.

Michael Frampton: Definitely. We can agree on that.

You, you, you do. You know, um, this came up because of some, there's been an article on Stab and Surfline and then there's been a bit of back and forth through Instagram, some of your posts, and then you reached out to me with an email. And I think we agree on in a lot of ways, but I think we also disagree in a lot of ways too.

But let's hear some more of your extreme, not extreme. Um, some

Holly Beck: call them extreme views. All right, I'll, I'll tell you where they came from.

Michael Frampton: Yeah.

Holly Beck: If that's how, that's what I'm trying to ask. So I, I, I grew up in the, and started surfing in the mid nineties in Palos Verdes, California. And Palos Verdes is really well known for having like intense, like old school etiquette.

Like if you don't live here, you can't surf here. One of the things that creates the conditions for that is that the waves there are very infrequently good. The waves get amazing, they get world class. There's awesome waves, but you need a really specific type of swell to make them work. So all summer long it's completely flat and in the springtime when you get wind swells, it's junky.

So the only time that makes those waves really good is when you get like a strong northwest long period swell. And then there's all of these points that light up and Palos Verdes is located in between Los Angeles and LA County. It's this little peninsula that sticks out. The freeways are really far away.

Nobody's passing through Palos. You have to go there. And it's also a upper middle class location and the along the coast in Palos, because it's so beautiful and it's right in between LA and Orange County, it's really expensive to live there. So there's a lot of. Trust fund kids and very wealthy, you know, adults that live there that feel this sense of entitlement and privilege.

And also the fact that the waves don't get good very often when they are good, there's this feeling of like, these are our waves, these are our waves in our backyard that we've waited all year to surf and we are gotta, we've gotta stop the outsiders for coming in, right? This is localism at its peak and that's what I grew up in.

And, and so when I was young and getting indoctrinated into that, you know, I thought that was the way to do it. And you know, if you're a grom, you sit, you start at the beaches or you sit on the very inside and you don't get set waves and you have to like play all the different games of ingratiating yourself to the guys at the top of the pecking order and pay your dues and be out there on the sloppy days.

And make friends. And then also, you know, it's like a pack of dogs. The, if the alpha is barking at outsiders and you want to be accepted by the alpha, then you have to also bark at the outsiders. So I got pulled into that pact of thinking that that was the right way to be and that was the cool way to be.

And I also want, you know, to claim my share of this limited resource. And so if I saw, , people from out of town that I didn't know, I was a jerk to them, just like everybody else was paddling circles around them, dropping in on them, telling them to beat it. Like I had a friend who would, you know, on a crowded day, he would call out and he'd be like, who knows the zip code?

If you don't know the zip code, turn and paddle in right now. Right. And, and so I thought that was normal and that was right. And I defended that. And then I eventually moved to, to Central America and was surfing very uncrowded spots and kind of started to develop a different perspective. And I started to surf with a big group of women and recognize that just because I lived there, you know, and here's these clients coming in for a week, does it mean that I get more right to waves than they do because I live there?

And at first I said, yes. Yeah, maybe not my clients, but when I was out surfing this break, that is now my new home break. And then, you know, there's the local kids that are true locals, and then there's me who's lived there for 10 years. And then there's the guy from Florida who's been there a week. And so I kind of took that same mindset that said.

I deserve more than you from Florida because I live here and continued it. And, and then, you know, I have progressed as a human and through the counseling degree and, and everything else. And, and I had been teaching to our clients. 'cause we teach etiquette, right? I believe that everybody needs to know etiquette.

And if I'm teaching surfers how to surf, part of my responsibility as a surf instructor is to teach them etiquette so that I'm not just pushing him into waves, but I'm teaching them to become a surfer. So that means educating them on the history and how to be a surfer in the lineup. And I used to teach, okay, here it is, you know, the surfer closest to the breaking part of the wave has priority.

And as you paddle out, you know, you make sure to paddle around into the channel if you can. And if you're paddling out and somebody's on the wave, it's your job to get outta the way and sacrifice yourself to the whitewash. And don't drop in and surface spot that's appropriate to your ability level and all of the basic.

Rules that I think us as surfers don't argue about. Like we all agree that those are the rules of surfing. And then I used to say too, like we are not all equal. There's the guy who has been surfing here before you were born. There's the person who is an exceptional surfer that's lived there a long time.

And then there's you as the visiting advanced beginner or beginner on a long board. And you're not all equal If you all paddle out at the same time and the set wave comes, probably the guy who's been surfing here before you're born is gonna take the first good wave and then the aspiring pro surfer is gonna take the next good wave and then it's your turn.

And that was what I would teach. And I started to adjust my mindset and I gotta give credit where it's due. Part of it was from a good friend of mine who is a woman of color, and she had created this organization, co-founded an organization called, um, color the Water that was all about taking people from communities that traditionally didn't have access to surfing and help bring them into surfing.

And, and she had this like, we'll call it like woke, but like, you know, uh, evolved. Vision of equality that I didn't agree with. 'cause I was like, no, if you don't live here and you're a beginner or you know you haven't grown up there, then you need to give extra respect to the locals. And we got in these big arguments and over time I started to change my mindset because a lot of the things that she was saying was like, why is it that Just because, let's use me as an example.

I came from a privileged background of having the opportunity to grow up in this beautiful surfing paradise. And I am, came from a family with money. So I didn't have to work when I was in, I mean, I did work in high school, but like not in the sense that stopped me from going to the beach. I didn't have to like help provide for my family.

And then. I was able to continue to live that lifestyle that was able to spend a lot of time to become a good surfer and to spend a lot of time at a certain break. That was a lot of privilege and luck that I had. And why does that make me more worthy of set weights? Like it shouldn't, right? The ocean is for everyone.

So if I paddle out into the water, just because I grew up surfing and I live close to this break, if somebody didn't grow up by the beach, they grew up inland and they've moved to the coast and they have to work to support their family, so they only get to surf one day a week. So they're still, you know, learning to surf.

Why does that person not have a right to catch a set wave? And, and like, I didn't have a good answer for that.

Michael Frampton: Do you? I the, the way that you grew up in surfing partly answers it. I, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think it's specific to where you're surfing.

Like this, this person, if this person took that attitude out to uh, uh, head high day at first point Malibu,

Holly Beck: well, what's the attitude? Good, good. What's the attitude?

Michael Frampton: What do you mean?

Holly Beck: You said if this person takes that attitude, what attitude? Define the attitude.

Michael Frampton: Thinking that they should just get their turn because they paddled out at a surf spot and that everyone should have turns.

Is that what you're sort of getting at?

Holly Beck: I, that's, I think that's what we're getting at. But let's, let's remove Malibu or Lenta Bay from it and let's just think about average. Average surf spot. Any surf spot, random surf spot, not famous, intense. We're not talking about pipeline or Malibu or raglin. We're just talking about a, a beach break.

Mm. Crappy, crappy beach break. And three of us are going surfing and one of us lives there and one of us is a pro surfer and one of us is, they're ca capable of surfing those waves. I'm not saying somebody in their first day ever, that's gonna be a danger to anyone. I think a lot of times in this conversation, the argument becomes you're advocating for beginners at the peak.

No, no, no. I'm not saying that. Saying that we're all capable surfers. Mm-hmm. But one of us has been surfing at that spot since before we were born, and the other one has been surfing there for 10 years and somebody else, it's maybe their first time there.

Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. Okay. So in that, in that situation.

Yes. I, I, I see what you're saying. Like if, if we all three went out surfing together at a spot and it would be, there's enough waves for us to take turns and still get our fix, and each person is going to respect each other as from a human level, not just a surfing level. It, it sounds awesome. And in that situation, I, I agree with you.

How, however, during that same surf if, because I've been surfing there all my life and I see it's let, let's say it's, , Janet's turn and she's the first time she's a capable surfer, but it's the first time she's surfed there. And we've been sharing waves all the time. But I see, I see something on the horizon that indicates to me, oh, there's a rogue set coming.

I know where these ones break and I paddle out, it's her turn and I paddle out a little bit further. She follows me, but. My experience out at this break has told me no, there's a wave that there's a rogue wave that's gonna break there. I don't care if it's her turn. This is my experience coming through.

I'm taking that wave no matter what. That's where we get into the nuance and the, because my, my I, I'm more competent to that break. I understand that wave more. 'cause I've spent more time out there. I think I should be able to catch that wave of the day and not necessarily give it to her unless I felt generous in the time and I wanted her to catch that wave.

'cause I wanted to share the stoke. Maybe I'm a little bit older and more mature and I've, damn, I've had my fix for today. So I think there's a lot of nuance there. And that decision was like, do I, do I use my. Experience as a surfer in this break to get that the best wave of the day? Or do I share it with someone else because, not just because it's their turn, but maybe that's the a nice thing to do in the moment.

That's where I think the nuance exists in this situation. However, there's not many situations like that. Usually when you go surfing, no matter where you go, whether it's first point Malibu or some closeout beach. So in between there and Trestles or anywhere on the along the coast, there's people everywhere and it's so hard to get away from people.

And I would say most people under 45 have the old school mentality of surfing. So you are, you're in this sort of gray area of like, do I be nice area? No one else is taking turns. Why should I?

Holly Beck: Well, that's the problem. And I, and I think that, that, that is where it comes in. And, and to like, to go back to your example, like yeah, the local, that is a good surfer, that knows that break is gonna get more waves and you probably will get the best wave of the day that comes in.

And as you should, that is your, that is your benefit, that is your reward for having put that time in and studied that spot. Right? So I'm not saying that like, if there's three of you, you should all have the exact same number of ways. My, my point would be that you see that lump coming and you know where it's gonna be and you paddle over and, and maybe she follows you, but you've initiated it and you've taken it.

Like, I think that's fine. The problem is that if you take it here. And then she goes, okay. Right. I'm gonna, I've noticed I'm learning from him and I'm noticing that there might be a good one there. And she paddles over it. There's not a second wave in the set, unfortunately. But she sits there and waits and you go, oh, right.

She's kind of in my spot, but I'm gonna paddle back around her and sit a little deeper that way. The next one that comes, I'm gonna take that one too, because that's my right as a local at this spot, because that is the attitude that I see happen. Mm-hmm. So I agree with your, your nuance. I think that there is, there is nuance and it does break down when too many people are fighting. So, but I think it's important to start with what would we do if there were just a few of us? What would be the right thing to do?

Throw away the old rules and think about what would be the right thing to do? What would be the human thing to do? It's never gonna be completely equal, but if you think about what would happen if there were just a few of us, how would I behave? How would I act? What, you know how it is when just like you and your friends go surfing.

Like if you do get one of those lucky days where there's just four or five of you and you're cheering for each other and yeah, maybe somebody catches a few more than others, just happens to be in the flow and those waves just come right to them, you know? But they're gonna, you're gonna recognize if you're out surfing with your friends, right?

You're gonna recognize, Ooh, I've kind of gotten really lucky and I've just got three good ones in a row. And even though this other good one is kind of coming right to me, I noticed my friend hasn't had one. So you're gonna most likely back off and be like, go. This one's yours, right? Like that's how you would behave in a small group of surfers that you knew, or even a smaller group of surfers that you didn't know.

Like most humans are gonna respond like that. So my point is, if we were teaching that as the right way to do it, even in a giant group of surfers at Malibu, if that was the norm. Then I feel like surfing culture would change a little bit. And instead what I've noticed is that as it gets more crowded, people are holding even tighter to the old ways and also they just don't know.

So part of what has made me think about this more lately, yes, my, that conversation with my friend kind of opened my eyes to, wow, I have experienced a lot of privilege and maybe I should be using my privilege to be nicer in the water instead of just putting the blinders on. But lately I've been surfing a point break that used to be a secret spot that now is becoming more and more known and more and more crowded and.

I've been frustrated by it. There's like a top of the point where like the very tippy top where all the aggressive surfers paddle each other too deep to be the deepest. But the actual best part of the wave in my experience is a little wider. Like the ones I sit a little further down the point and the waves that swing wide, the wave that they break on the point is actually where I prefer to sit.

So I generally sit there and so I watch the aggressive surfers do laps. And there was this one day, there was this surfer. He was kind of darker skinned, but it wasn't obvious that he was local. I was, I'm in Costa Rica, so he, it wasn't obvious that he was a local Costa Rican, but he did have a little darker skin and he was wearing these bright red board shorts and I'd never seen him before.

And I've spent a lot of time at this break. So I feel like I know most of the true locals. I'd never seen him before. And he was just doing laps. He was a good surfer and he would catch a set wave. He would catch a little wave. It wasn't like he was just waiting for the best waves of the day. He was paddling for any wave he could catch, and he was riding them and bee lining it straight back to the top of the point and going again.

And he was really irritating. A lot of the people in the water were irritated with this guy and some people were grumbling to each other, but no one was really saying anything. And probably third day of seeing him during the swell, I had a friend paddle out, a girl on a longboard. She was having a hard day, she just needed to get a couple waves.

We were kind of, we started chatting, we sort of floated down to the very bottom of the wave and she was like, uh, I'm so frustrated. I just need a wave. And I see red shorts up and riding again. And he has already traversed, you know, like 50 meters. This is a real long point break. We're at the very, very end of the wave where most people just kick out.

Anyways, she's on a long board and I tell her, oh, it, it's just red shorts go. You go drop in on it. Which, you know, may have, may not been the right thing to do. But in that moment, I'm trying to look out for my friend. This guy's not caring about anyone else. So I tell her to go, she's like, really, really the guy?

And I'm like, don't worry. He's been, he's been taking too many, everybody's annoyed with this guy. So she drops in on him and he is racing down the line. And what most I think of us would've done would've been like, Ugh, and kicked out, whatever. I've had a hundred waves today. Let let the girl on the long board go.

But he didn't. He forced it and yelled at her and she got flustered and she fell off. And I'm like, oh my God, I've caused this. So I'm sitting there preparing my apology. I'm thinking to myself, when he paddles back out, I'm gonna apologize to him and I'm gonna say, Hey, I'm, that was my fault. I'm so sorry I told my friend to go, but this is why I've noticed that you've been catching a ton of waves.

Maybe you should let a, a few go. Before I got a chance to say that to him, he paddles up angrily. And my friend, who's already had a bad day, she just releases her anger on him. And instead of apologizing, she goes, I heard that you've been taking all the waves, and that's not cool. And now we're all yelling at each other, just the opposite of the vibe I'm trying to create in the water.

But I got kind of sucked in. And, and he doesn't understand because in his mind, he got dropped in on and yelled at. And now I'm, instead of calmly apologizing and having an opening to this conversation, I'm now yelling back at him and we have this whole thing. And, and he paddles away. And now all three of us and the, uh, the bystanders in the water, everybody's nervous system is activated.

And I was like, Ugh. And eventually he paddled over to another one of our friends and said, what? I don't understand what just happened. So she told me that. So I paddled up to him and in a much calmer way, I explained what happened and he told me he thought he was following the rules. He was like, but I was deepest, so that means I have priority.

And, and I, that was the realization that, you know, everybody in the water is annoyed with this guy, but he doesn't realize it because in his mind he's a hundred percent justified. He's following the rules. And you know, we eventually, we explained, we, you know, Pura Vida High five, we respected each other's surfing.

And I think it was only because I am a very competent surfer that he would even hear me out because that is surfing, right? We as surfers respect other talented surfers. And you know, he had, he commented like he had seen me, , catching waves. And I said, yeah, I also respect your surfing , so we can have this conversation.

And a few days later I saw a very similar thing happen with a, like a beginner surfer. This guy could barely surf, but he was doing the same thing. He was paddling up to the top of the point. He was going on waves, he was falling, he was doing it over again. And I went to him and had a nice conversation. I was like, Hey, I noticed you're catching a lot of waves and even dropping in on, or not dropping on people, but like dropping in too deep.

You know, like he was taking waves that if he had let them go, other surfers could ride. So he was blocking people from catching waves in that way. And I'm like, but you know, you should really sit down the way or let some waves go. And he's like, but I was deepest. And so that is what made me realize that this is the problem, is that when we as surfer culture are having these conversations, we're telling people these are the rules closest to the breaking part has priority.

Don't drop in, paddle around, but there's no mention of and look out for other surfers. Keep in mind that just because you can sit deepest and take waves, that doesn't, there's more to it. And soon after I'd been having these conversations, I was scrolling Instagram as you do. And I saw that, I think it was Surfline had this really cool feature that they had clearly invested money in.

And there was these animated graphics and it was all like the rules of surfing. And I was so interested. So like, so what are they gonna have? And, and it was all of those rules. It was like surf at a spot appropriate to your level, you know, all the things that we already listed, no mention of, and look out for the other surfers and take turns.

And just because your deepest doesn't mean that you should have priority forever. Like it, like similar to your, I listened to your podcast of, uh, Laird, you know, the, when you had the, you told the story of Laird. Yeah. Where I was like. Laird thinks he's Laird, so he gets to go, you know, and it, it's like, why aren't we having this conversation more that it isn't just if you're the best surfer and you can take off the deepest that you get more waves.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Uh, it's so nuanced. And to take that lad story, I think the lad story and your story of red shorts are quite similar in a way. Do you know the only, the only reason that LAD was getting so many waves off me. Is because I let him, and the only reason Red Shorts was doing what he did is 'cause he was acting like a kook and no one was pulling him up on it now until you calmly spoke to him.

And he's like, oh. So I describe a kook as someone who's with a lack of awareness. It doesn't matter whether you're a good surfer or not. You, if you're out there just running rings around everyone else and with a complete lack of awareness, just think, oh, just 'cause I'm just, 'cause I can drop in, you know, more than earlier than you.

I get all the waves. You're acting like a kook and it's up to one of the elders. Now, maybe it's one of the elders drops in on him, pushes him deep, and then the guy comes at him and starts yelling at him and he just looks him in the eye and says, nah, man, you're going in. That's the old school way of way of doing it.

And that's how it used to get sorted out. But nowadays it's more like, actually, we'll let you vent and calm down and then I'm gonna have a logical conversation with you. And if you're still gonna act like that, well you know what you're gonna get dropped in on. And everyone's on my side. And I, I, I think, so in my, the situation with lead, I didn't speak up early enough and I mean, of course part of it's lead Lead is who lead is because of what lead does.

That's part of it too. But at the same time, when I did stick up for myself, he was, he kind of more appreciated it than anything else. And just like with red shorts guy, I, I'm assuming he did change his attitude or he paddled in that day, or, I mean, what ha have you seen him since? Like what, what's the follow on from No, I,

Holly Beck: I never saw him again.

It was, it ended up being the last day of his. Of his trip. He, he turned out to be Costa Rican and which is something he like, let made sure to let me know and that, but he lived in a different part of Costa Rica and, and when we finally had that conversation, it was like, at the very end of this, we'd both gone in, we we're both on the beach and had the conversation on the beach.

So I never got a chance, but I, I, I hoped that he thought about it because that, like, that was the realization was that to me it seemed like he just didn't realize, like he, like I think Laird realizes, like Laird knows, right? Like, I wanna think that Laird knows that. It would be nicer to share waves, but because he is layered, nobody's gonna say anything.

Where in this case, both red shorts and the beginner guy that I mentioned, they just literally didn't know. Like they looked at me like there was some, like they were shocked that I was calling them out because they thought they were in the right. Because even when you, you know, you go to a surf break and you see the like signs now that they have at places mm-hmm.

That are like the rules of surfing. You know, again, the rules are surfer deepest and don't drop in. And that, that, that's the conversation that I wanna have. Like I recognize that there's nuance and you get to a certain level of certain number of people in the water and it's just like, it's becomes chaos.

But I wish that there was more conversation around and let's look out for each other in the water. Because sometimes I think that that person that is catching so many waves, obviously everybody's different, but a lot of times they think that they're crushing it. They think they're showing off. Mm-hmm.

They think that the other surfers in the water are like in awe of all the waves they're catching and how they're ripping. And if we, as a surfing culture, were adjusting what we felt like was good surfing and that included was pleasant to surf with. Then I think that the lineup would be nicer for everyone.

And then the shredder, because that's how I try to surf now. You know, like, don't get me wrong, I like to be the best surfer in the water when I, when I'm having a good day. And I love it when I do a big turn and someone comments, and I love it when I get the best set wave of the day. Like I still have that.

But I have now recognized that if I have that, but everybody's annoyed with me, then I'm not actually the best surfer in the water. And that that's the part that I wish was more a part of surf culture. Because I think that still, there are people, a lot of them like that believe that part of being the best surfer in the water is also getting the most or the best waves.

And it's aside from just their enjoyment of those waves, but they actually think that that is them, you know, winning. Winning the surf session.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. . And I think . Pre CCTV, that person would've been showing the door through old school passive aggressive localism, which I agree with you, but not if they

Holly Beck: were local.

Michael Frampton: No, it depends if, if he, if he, it depends on who he's snaking. You know, if he's, if he's out, if there's a bunch of plumbers that want to get their three waves before work and they're older than him, well, you know, he's not gonna get away with it back in the day. Nowadays with CCTV, no one wants to say anything.

No one wants any, no one wants conflict. People just ignore these sorts of people and just. Like, I mean, ld LD is gonna go out and catch as many waves as LD can catch. He's, there's no etiquette in Laird's mind. It's a dog eat dog world. I'm the best. It's a hierarchy of confidence. I'm dropping in deepest, I'm on a standup foil board.

I don't give a shit until someone looks him in the eye and says something to him and says, actually, I'm gonna then let Mike go. You know what? You made the effort to actually say something to me and make a conversation and prove to me that you can catch a wave on the peak. Yeah. Okay. We'll, we'll go wave for wave now.

I, I think the, the problem in the culture is no one says anything, therefore narcissistic and kooks like red shorts guy and lead Hamilton will do whatever they want to catch as many as waves as they can. Now I, I agree. I don't think you should go dropping in on someone and pushing them into the reef and being passive aggressive about it.

But neither should you just say nothing. Paddle up to him, look him in the eye. If he's not willing to have a conversation, he keeps doing what he's doing well hey, maybe, maybe then drop in on him 'cause he is not listening and he, so I, I think I, I agree with you. I just think that the, the rule surfing has no rules.

You know, I think that's the beauty about surfing. But yes, there are ethical practices to make sure that lineups are safe. 'cause at the end of the day, it's a safety issue, right? If someone's gonna be like that, people are gonna get frustrated, they're gonna make bad decisions, they're gonna drop in on some, on him, on a long board, someone's gonna get hurt, whether it's a wave of consequence or not.

So it does come back to a safety issue. So if, if, if someone like red shorts is, is being a dick and at a, at a surf break where there's no real shallow reef or anything, the consequences are people are gonna get frustrated with him and a long board's gonna get in somewhere. So maybe it's up to one of the elders to actually pull this guy aside and say, Hey look.

You're active, this is the way you're acting, this is the way people in the lineup are seeing you. Just letting you know, yes you are, you're a good surfer. You can paddle deeper than everyone else, but this is how people are experiencing you

Holly Beck: just to, and, and I think that having, having these conversations helps spread that idea because I think that a lot of people, like in, in this particular case, there's not really elders at this spot.

You know? Like this is a, the spot that you kind of used to be a secret spot. And now a lot of people that surf there, like they're just that, that doesn't really like, I guess I'm the elder in this case, like I was, I find myself at this spot a lot. Like I don't feel like I normally would count as an elder, but I'm kind of filling that role as someone that surfs there a long time, has the surfing skill to kind of back it up and feels like I can speak up.

But there's plenty of other people in the water who are surf there a lot longer than this guy. But I think they don't feel empowered. To stick up because that isn't what they've been taught. Like, I think it goes back to this thing like the, to popularize the idea that if someone is taking too many waves, like that isn't okay.

Like we should be taking turns. And that doesn't mean that the actual, you know, old man that's been serving there forever, that's 70 years old that doesn't catch that many waves and he's finally gonna go and not look. Of course I'm gonna say, yeah, you go, you know, there's some element of, you know, respecting these certain individuals, but with the idea that the respect goes both ways.

Right. I, I think a, a lot of times also when I have this conversation, or at least when, when I was having it on the keyboard through Instagram and I was getting so frustrated because I couldn't actually have a conversation. A lot of the keyboard warriors were saying, if, if people sitting on the shoulder wanna catch more waves, they should just sit deeper.

And, and I feel like that goes against it because it's like, if. At this break, again, as I say, like there's the, the steeper top takeoff and then it's a really long wave with a nice sloping shoulder. And there are a lot of kind of advanced beginners or lower intermediate surfers that ride fishes and mid lengths and even long boards sitting at this break.

And if the only way to tell them, the only way they can catch a wave is by being deepest, then that invites all of them to have to go sit at the top of the point. But they don't wanna sit at the top of the point. And if we said you on the long board, that's really better off sitting on the shoulder. The only way that you can get in position to have your turn come up is to sit at the top of the point.

That's actually what's endangering people. So the better practice is for the surfers at the top of the point to occasionally let some waves go. Have it not always be the surfer at the very top of the points priority, just because they're capable of sitting deepest. Because the alternative is to have these surfers have to sit further up and then they're not as competent.

And if they do wipe out, they're right in the thick of things. Like I would rather that surfer sit further down the shoulder and after I've had a few waves and here I am on another wave and I see this beginner surfer on the shoulder that still hasn't had one, like I should kick out and be like, you go, I'm not gonna do it on the very best wave that comes in.

Right. But like, it should be their turn, it should be their priority. Hmm. And, and, and I feel like that's you, you don't agree. How are they ever gonna be good enough to sit at the top of the point if they're never allowed to catch a wave?

Michael Frampton: Yeah, no. Uh. I see your point of view. However, it it, it makes me think of, uh, , I, I haven't surfed in this place.

I haven't surfed in this culture. It's hard for me to comment. So let me give you an, like, I surfed first Point Malibu a lot and yeah, nowadays there's a handful of surf instructors on the inside pushing kooks into wave cos like people with lack of awareness, people there for the tourist experience, quite frankly, people that should be practicing how to stand up on a surfboard in the whitewash at Zuma Beach where there's no one else around.

Now if I, now, if I spend an hour sitting on the peak waiting for my turn for a set wave at Malibu first point, and I finally get one of these waves. And I managed to surf it most of the way through. And this is at the end of the section. I wanna finish off with a nice nose right and glide out. But no, so-and-so's pushing soft top in my way.

I'm no, I I should have been allowed to do two more turns on that wave and you should actually be at a different break learning how, even though this wave is catchable here, it's still actually quite a rippable wave for good surfers. Just 'cause it's harder to catch further up doesn't mean that you get to catch the last part of the wave.

So

Holly Beck: I agree with you a hundred percent and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm, I'm talking about, let's say.

You, I'm sure you're very capable of sitting steep and deep in Malibu. And Malibu is maybe not the best example, but let's just use it. I know how Malibu at sitting at the top. It can be a little steeper and then it's a little easier to get in on the shoulder, right? And we're not talking about like the a plus day where all the pros are out and it's, it's crazy.

Just an average day at Malibu, and I'm not talking about the beginner on the soft top, getting pushed in by an instructor. We're not talking about that guy. Talking about the maybe one level down and skill from you, however you would define that. Not as good as you, but like aspiring to be as good as you, almost as good as you.

Not quite as good at taking off steep and deep, not quite as able to sit late underneath all the crowd. Little bit more nervous about sitting there, wants to sit a little further over to have a little bit more time on their popup, but they're capable of getting up and riding down the wave. Without such a pressure situation.

Mm-hmm. It's more like that person. It's that person that is, is also paying their dues, is also waiting their turn has watched you get a few good ones. Okay. You've been sitting for an hour and you haven't had one. No, please don't give your wave away for this person, but I'm talking after you've had a few and everyone else sitting with you has had a few, and you've paddled past this person that's just sitting like 10 feet over, 15 feet over because they just don't have the, whatever, the confidence, the experience mm-hmm.

To sit. As steep and deep. That's the person I'm talking about.

Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. I've been that person. Yep. I've, I'm there. I'm there. There's no way. When I, when I was that person, there's no part of me that would paddle out to halfway up the point at first point Malibu and expect someone to pull off after having caught the wave at the peak and give me a wave.

No, I'm there to get the scraps. I'm there to get the wide sets that do come through that the other, that the guys sitting at the point don't want. And I will sit up into the point and I'll watch them and I'll learn from, and I'll put hours upon hours into that wave to learn how that wave breaks before.

Now I, now you've, and now

Holly Beck: you've gotten a little closer and that, that's good.

Michael Frampton: Yep.

Holly Beck: Good job doing that. And now you've gotten a little closer. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and the idea that what if there's a guy that can take off four feet deeper than you and every single time he paddles past you Every time.

Michael Frampton: Yep.

Holly Beck: Because he is like, I live here. I live right here on the point.

Michael Frampton: That's not why, but he's just more skillful and knows the wave better.

Holly Beck: Or, or maybe he's, maybe you guys are equal. Maybe he's actually an equal server, but the fact that he lives there gives him a certain amount of entitlement and knows everyone else in the water.

Mm-hmm. Like, wouldn't it be nice, wouldn't it be more enjoyable for you if he didn't paddle past you every single time?

Michael Frampton: So I, and just said,

Holly Beck: I'm going,

Michael Frampton: I, I also lived in Sydney and I used to surf a slab, like quite a difficult wave. And the takeoff zone is very small. Only about five people can even sit there.

So, and I spent, gosh, it was, I, I surfed there for hours every single day for at least a year before I was allowed to get a set wave. And there is no part of me that thought, oh my God, I wish you had just given me a turn. Or, you know what I mean? Now, partly 'cause it's a safety issue as like I, they knew whether consciously or not, I didn't have the skill to take off right at the deepest part of the wave.

'cause I might've got dragged along the reef and I, I certainly wasn't a local. And so I got the scraps and I caught the ones on the shoulders for years. And then every now and then I paddle out early in the morning and there's no one out. And I got to paddle. I got to take a few from the takeoff point, and I, I worked my way up.

So I've, I've been in these situations. I can understand why people new to surfing think that, oh no, shouldn't I just be allowed a turn? How do I, how else am I gonna get good at taking off deep without, unless you give me a turn at doing it. So I, I see your point, and I see newcomers coming at this from this perspective, but I also see the tradition and I, I, okay, some locals take it to the extreme and aren't necessarily doing it for reasons of safety and culture and ethics and stuff.

They just want their waves. But we also have to deal with those people 'cause they're not gonna change their ways either. So. Well,

Holly Beck: I think it's sometimes it's hard to, when we've grown up in this culture and, and we like, it's like that. I, I hear you and I can relate to the fact that I paid my dues. Now you have to pay your dues.

It's, it's almost like that the whole culture of like hazing, you know, like the seniors beat up on the freshmen and, and then those freshmen grow up and be seniors and then they beat up on the freshmen and, and it just like the cycle or I know in the fire service my partners of was, is a retired firefighter and talks about like in the fire services the same way like the young guys have to do the grunt jobs because that is how it's always been.

But if you take a moment to separate from that and think, but should it be that way? It's like, yes, we had to deal with that. We got yelled at and kept on the inside and forced to sit on the shoulder, you know? And because, and now because we survived through that and got to the other side, now we're gonna expect that everybody else has to do it too.

Like, I, I get that, but it's just the question of, and, and I think again, like. When you're talking about pipeline or this slab or first point Malibu, it's a harder conversation to have. But what I see is that even at inconsequential waves, you know, and we're not, again, we're not talking about like the beginner getting pushed in on the soft top.

I agree with that too, but what I'm talking about is the more like the middle ground, the average surf session, the e similar inability levels, but maybe this one's a little better than that one and, and it still happens. There's still this idea that like, if I surf better than you, or if I'm more from this spot.

Then I get more and, and it the only, I just don't think that it's like, you know, you go to the grocery store and you wait in line. And even if it's really crowded and there's only one checkout counter for like so many grocery shoppers, like nobody's expecting that if you live next door to the grocery store or you've been surf or checking out at that grocery store for 20 years, that you get to cut the line.

You know? And it's like, why in surfing do we decide that if you're really good at grocery shopping and you live right next door and you've been shopping at that grocery store since you were a little tiny kid, that you get to go to the front of the line and nope, sorry, you just gotta pay your dues. And then one day when you put in the time, you'll get to where I am.

And, and I understand when it's a safety issue. A hundred percent agree. And yes, a beginner that should be writing whitewash should not be taken to the top of the point. I see that at this wave too. I see surf instructor, we, we don't bring our clients to the top of the point. We have them sit at the bottom of the point because they don't need to be riding those waves.

But if we get a guest that is a competent surfer that knows those how to surf, we're not pushing them in, we're just sort of guiding or coaching them, then they should be able to go out to show respect, to wait their turn. And then when they've done all those things and the set wave comes, not have somebody that's lived there longer back paddle them or drop in on them or tell them that they should be sitting down the beach just 'cause they're not from there.

And, and I feel like whenever we have this conversation, it always goes to the extremes. In the extreme, I agree with you. But just to start moving in that direction. Because even in the extremes, if, if I think that if part of culture, surfing culture was this idea that if we're all catching waves, the lineup is a healthier, happier place.

And, and yeah, if you are being dangerous, then please go down the line. But like if we're all out there together, then the locals and the better surfs, they're gonna get more waves, they're gonna get more set waves. But that doesn't mean that they have more right to those set waves. Like the other person should have the opportunity to try for a set wave and if they fall, they fall, that's okay.

That was their turn. There's no such thing as a wasted wave. Whether I caught the wave and rode it all the way to the beach, or I caught the wave and blew my popup and fell, that was my turn. I could do whatever I want with my turn. If I'm riding a thin looks board and I blow it. That's, but

Michael Frampton: the, well, with the irony, the irony there is depending on the break, but in a lot of places, if you don't get, if you stuff up your turn, you don't get another turn.

Right. Not that, not that day anyway. I, I, I see what you're saying in terms of the, I don't disagree with you.

But it's so hard for me to comment having never surfed this specific place,

Holly Beck: and I'm just using this spot as an example. Like I, today I surfed a whatever beach break right out front. But I noticed the same factors at play. The, the locals that all knew each other, that are speaking each other in Spanish, and they see me as the blonde girl and they think that I don't live here and I don't speak Spanish, and they paddle straight past me to the top of the point, you know, I'm sitting there waiting for it, not the point, the peak where I'm at a beach break.

I'm sitting here waiting for my wave. I know exactly the wave I'm looking for. I know how to surf. And the guy just paddles right around the side of me, you know? And I'm just like, you didn't need to do that. We're at a beach break. It's not even very good. There's plenty of ways coming in, like just because you live here, you don't need to assert your dominance and paddle around the other side of me.

Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yep. Yeah. No, I, I I, I, I do agree with you. It's just so nuanced and so, um, I mean, surfing has a hierarchy of competence. There's no, and yeah, I'm using extreme waves like Malibu and pipeline to, and we all always seem to go there, but I think sometimes when you're trying to make a point, it's good to talk about the extremes because what's on the other side of it, like, okay, let's say go to ATU and there's an 18 second swell coming in.

And have you, have you surfed, I'm assuming you've surfed ATU before?

Holly Beck: Yeah, not a ton, but I have.

Michael Frampton: But even just walking down the stairs to get to paddle out is tough. But the amount of people that I saw out surfing. ATU on soft tops and just having no idea what they're doing. And there's locals up on the cliff whistling at them 'cause they've gone too far and they come reef cuts.

It's just like, I can see why, like if you're a good Aussie surfer and you want to go to ATU to surf in 18 seconds swell, and then you try and catch one of these crazy waves and there's just a bunch of people flailing in front of you. It's really frustrating. Can, can they manage to catch one of these waves and ride along?

Yeah, sure they can, but they're putting themselves and other people at risk in doing it. So when I read, we see articles coming at it from the other extreme on stab where Aussie surfers are sick of these tourist kooks getting in the way and hurting themselves. And you see that that's another extreme right.

People are taking this entitlement. It's my turn.

Holly Beck: That's, but that's not what we're talking about.

Michael Frampton: No, I know, but it feeds, it does feed into it a little bit. Because you can see if you've, there's

Holly Beck: always based on the idea that you are capable of surfing this spot if you are a beginner, and yeah, you could take off on a wave and go straight, but like you're dangerous to yourself and others.

You shouldn't be out there. I'm not saying that,

Michael Frampton: but that's why

Holly Beck: the extremes. I agree with you a hundred percent.

Michael Frampton: But that, that's what I'm saying is that a wave like ATU is a very tricky takeoff spot.

Holly Beck: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: You can sit a bit further down and get into one of those waves a lot easier, but if someone has put the time and effort in to become a a surfer, good enough to take off.

At the spot at ATU and they finally get one and they get barreled and they come out and they're like, come out to the softer part of the wave and they wanna rip a few turns as well. And then there's some person, oh, it's my turn to go. 'cause this is the easier part of the wave. I would say to that person, you're surfing the wrong spot.

If you can't take off at the deepest gnarliest part of that point, break that peels all the way through, go somewhere else. So if I'm a local and I've negotiated the, the barrel section of a point break, and yes it's sections, but I wanna do some cutbacks as well on that wave and someone thinks, oh, but it's my turn.

First of all, I, I'm surfing 50 meters up the line. I don't know whether you've just caught eight waves or not. I don't know whether it's your turn or not. So whilst I see it's frustrating for the, the beginner intermediate to sit on the shoulder and catch some good waves at a point break. I'm also thinking, shit, maybe you should be at a point break where it's not as tricky to negotiate or at a beach break practicing to get good enough to actually sit closer to the point.

Maybe not to fight for the set waves right at the point, but to at least be seen to be competent by that group that are doing it. So maybe they will, you know, okay, that's not a great set wave. You, you go on the shoulder. Do you see what I'm saying? The the, the, I do

Holly Beck: and I agree with you and I agree and that's where I feel like there's so much nuance because what I think what I'm saying is, yeah, you're the guy and you've gotten the sick barrel and the wave is still going and you wanna do like five round house cutbacks.

You should absolutely do that. But maybe on the next wave that you get, you come out of the barrel and now you're like, you know what, I already, I just rode that last one all the way to the beach and did five cutbacks. But actually the part of the wave I'm enjoying the most is the top with the barrel and.

I could do five more cutbacks on this wave again. But I also see this long borderer really wanting to have one. And you know what? I, I'm just gonna kick out and let them go. It's not because you have to, it's because that is what's actually gonna make you a better surfer in the water and the long boarder paddles back out and you've made their, that got the best wave of their trip.

Right. You're not gonna do it every single time, and you're a hundred percent entitled to ride that wave all the way through. But I think again, like it just, the, the guy that's done the barrel and wants to do the cutbacks, he doesn't need to do that on 15 waves. Right. But, but like, that's not what we're teaching.

We are teaching them. Yeah, I'm the guy and I can do that on every single wave because I have more right to surfing than you because I'm a better surfer and I live here and you're a danger, go somewhere else. You know, and, and I, and I feel like it might not be that person's fault. Like they might be there with their better surfing partner who's also up at the top of the wave.

They would love to go somewhere else. They don't wanna be there, but for whatever reason, this is where they are. This is where they happen to be, and they're trying their best to stay out of their way. They don't wanna hurt you. They don't wanna mess up your wave, you know? And, and I think that's the conversation.

And it is so nuanced, you know, because I don't think that they have the right to drop in on you just because it's their turn. I'm not saying that. Mm-hmm. But I feel like if I, as the good surfer, have now changed my mindset, believe me, I wanna go out there and get mine. I'm a busy mom. I don't get to surf as much as I used to.

I have sessions when I go out there and I just need to get a couple waves and I'm gonna go get those waves. But after I've had a couple, I'm way more likely with this change of mindset to be like, if I give a wave away. Like, call it karma or just line up good vibes or whatever. Like, I'm gonna stoke this person out.

I don't need, I don't need to do three more cutbacks on this wave. I really don't need to, I'm gonna be seen as a better surfer. I'm gonna be more enjoyable to surf with. I'm gonna be more respected in the water. I, if I do kick outta this one, you know, if I go to paddle for Wave, I'm deepest. It's a fun shoulder, high wave, but here's this competent, lesser skilled surfer sitting nearby that I know I've paddled around three times already, because they can't sit as deep.

They don't wanna sit as deep, like, maybe I am just gonna let this wave go. I don't need it. You know? Mm-hmm. I don't have to do that. That's the choice I'm making. But that's the Right, that's the ethical thing. If we're talking about ethics, surfing ethics, like that would be the more ethical thing to do.

And if more people surf like that, better surfers than me, surf like that, then when I'm at a spot that's like in my challenge zone. And if there was someone in the water that has had four waves, that I'm sitting a little bit on the shoulder 'cause I'm kind of feeling nervous and I'm learning from them and I'm trying to figure out the positioning and I'm kind of nervous to go.

And they look at me and they're like, Hey, go. I'm gonna be so stoked. It's like that paying it forward, like we were all beginners. And I think that now the culture is, I was a beginner and I suffered, and therefore you have to suffer. But imagine that you could go back and be that beginner and the more experienced surfer was there to kind of support you and lend you a hand, and then you were the one paying that forward.

Like, I don't know, it's such a utopian vision that doesn't exist. But we can create that if that's the conversation that starts happening. And you're right that there's gonna be people that are not gonna change. But you know, I'm 45, those people are getting older. Eventually they're gonna need knee replacements and hip replacements, and they're gonna be on a long board sitting on the shoulder.

And it, it's the surfers that are learning to surf now that are gonna make the culture going forward. So can we shift the conversation at least a little bit?

Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. We definitely can. And again, I don't disagree. I think, you know, I'm, now that I'm older and I'm more inclined to, to surf the way you describe, like Yeah.

But it would be silly of me to expect others younger than me and hungrier than me to surf that way is my point. And so, so yeah, I don't disagree with you at all. I think the problem is people don't talk enough in the water. . There's too many surfers nowadays and there's not an, the passive aggressive sort of old school way isn't gonna work.

There's just too many surfers for that to work. And,, it's just better to talk to people. If, if someone is, is acting like an idiot in the water, then it's up to one of the elder surfers to say something to them rather than just drop in and threaten to bust their fins out or whatever. I agree with that, but it is also up to the, the beginner surfers and the average surfers to have a little bit of, um, re respect for the history and the way that surf culture did evolve.

We can't change that and that some surf breaks, no matter how much you want them to change, they're just unlikely to change. So if you wanna surf there, you just better be looking out for the scraps and working your way up to the point. Whereas there's gonna be other, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there are places in, maybe even in Costa Rica where it's, there's nothing but surf schools and there's nothing but it's your turn.

No, you go and polite and long boards and soft. I'm sure there are places like that too. And it would be silly for a short, even though the, there are some waves coming through that are very short, portable for some short border to come through and try and rip through a bunch of long borders. Learning that, that would be silly of that person as well.

Just like it would be silly of a, a learner to, to try and go out to first point Malibu just 'cause they could surf it. 'cause it's an easy wave to catch. It's silly for them to expect. Gosh, first point, Malibu is an incredible shortboarding wave. It was one of the most funnest waves to surf on a shortboard.

That doesn't mean that you can go out there and sit at the peak e even if you lived there. Even if you surf a longboard there every single day, you, you're not just gonna grab a shortboard and go and catch a wave. You're gonna get laughed out of the lineup, even though logically, you know, you're a local and you're surfing.

It's just sort of, it's just the way that the history and the culture of that break is, and there's no disregarding that. So I think we're far more in agreement than maybe this conversation's alluded to. I think just the nuance of every single break and every single swell is something that that beginner surfers need to be more aware of.

And maybe as surf coaches, we need to sort of. Talk about more. , I, and I always say, look, paddling up to someone looking in, in the eye and talking about it is the way to go. No matter how angry they look or whatever, may, if they have a couple of teardrop tattoos under their eye, maybe just, maybe don't, 'cause you might get your tires stabbed, but other, otherwise it's, you know, I think in, in a lot, surfing brings out the worst in people, especially when it's crowded.

But I always find if you can be calm and look someone in the eye and have a conversation with them, maybe they get angry and paddle away from you, but then they actually might see you in the car park and come up and say, sorry, you know what? Hey, you know what it was, it was hectic out there. I'm sorry. I just ignored you and you tried to talk to me.

Or what I, I think you'll find most people give them the benefit of the doubt. And even if they're angry in the moment, they might disrespect for you, but the next day you see them in the water, they might apologize and people were willing to hear you out or. It could backfire on you, and they might go, actually, you've been sitting on the inside just getting in everyone's way.

It would be far better if you just went down there and practiced your popups and you might actually end up with some, and then there's everything in in between. So yeah, it's a, it's a good conversation to have. I, I always tell people to dive, as much as you want to dive into surfing and getting better at surfing, dive into the surf culture and listen to, ain't That Swell podcast.

Listen to Surf Splendor podcast. Follow the Ragland Surf Report and John Wayne Freeman on Instagram and just really get a feel for how, man, don't screaming.

Holly Beck: Come on. Well, I don't

Michael Frampton: the extremes. You're getting the extremes of surf culture. I know what you

Holly Beck: mean, but I, I also think that the way it, to me it's okay to surf culture to change because if you just listen to what surf culture was from the beginning.

Back in when women didn't surf and it was so like women shouldn't be in the lineup. You know, surf culture can change and that's okay. Like I, when we teach it, I always teach, look, this is the history of surfing. These are where these rules came from. There's a lot, most of the people in the lineup are operating from these rules, but that doesn't mean that these are gonna be the rules forever.

And we can start in our own, in our own little world, our own little group, we can surf differently. And the more we surf differently and infect other people with surfing differently, then surf culture can change. Yeah, agree. You know, I agree. I do think it's important to know what came before, but I also don't think that that's the way that it should be forever.

Michael Frampton: I totally, I totally agree. And I, it's. , Let's have the listeners out there. Chime in.

Holly Beck: Yes. Get ready for the comments.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Um, when I release this, there will be an Instagram post that goes along with it. So feel free to comment there. Um, write an email to myself, mike, at surf mastery.com. Um, you can go to Holly's Instagram page and chime in there.

But I think it's important that the nuance of this conversation is had. I think that's the most important thing. Um, whether who, whoever's right or wrong, that's gonna be nuanced to this specific surfing situation, I think. But the more we talk around it, the better informed you are to negotiate those situations.

Um, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's etiquette. At the end of the day, etiquette is sort of like a politeness. Thing. Right? And some, some, there's always gonna be some people that do not give a shit about et etiquette at all. So you can, some of them will have teardrop tattoos stay away from them. And some of them are, are, will be people that maybe they're, it's not just their catching a wave experience that's driving it, you know, that maybe they're trying to make the world tour and they, it, there's no standing in a talented surfer who is driven because that's how they, um, support their family financially.

Yeah. You're not gonna having a conversation with them about catching or,

Holly Beck: or maybe they just had a family member that pass away in a car accident or maybe they just lost their job. You never know. They just had a breakup. I, the way that I try to deal with. You know, we'll call it a, something that appears to be a jerk in the water is Yeah.

If you feel like your nervous system is up for the task and you feel safe to have a conversation, then do, and otherwise, I try to have compassion for that person because I, I, at one point I was at, I was postpartum and I had 30 minutes to surf and I hadn't surfed, and I would go out there and be a complete jerk and catch too many waves for 30 minutes.

So you never know what someone is going through and why they're being driven, but if you have a conversation with them and they tell you that they're more deserving of waves than you because of this, this, and this, like, that's where I'm like, okay, let's, let's discuss.

Michael Frampton: Mm mm Well, no, that, that's an interesting point too.

You know, if you've got, if you've only, like, if you're a, if you've been surfing a place for 20 years and you surf between eight and 9:00 AM before your job, maybe it is okay if you catch more waves. During that hour than the people that are there on holiday that can potentially surf that break for four hours a day.

This

Holly Beck: for sure.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. And it happened. One

Holly Beck: of, one of my friends that I made in the water, I, we made friends because I had to get out of the, it was six in the morning and I'd paddled out in the dark and I'd only had 40 minutes and I had to get out of the water to take my daughter to school. And I'd been trying to get one, and here comes this like amazing set wave.

And I dropped in on him and I looked back and I was like, I'm so sorry. I have to get out and take my daughter from school. I know this is not okay, but goodbye. And we're like great friends now. And we laugh about it and you know, the next time I saw him in the water I'm like, Hey, I think I owe you one. So you never know.

You never know what's going on. And like you said, there's always gonna be nuance, but if I just said, screw you, I live here and that's why I am taking the wave. I think that that's where it's, it's not okay. Not cool.

Michael Frampton: Yep. I a hundred percent agree with that. , And it is up to us to talk and,, yeah, just to confront people with words in the water rather than passive aggressive surfing antics.

I think we're in agreement with that. , And I think it's good that we have these conversations. 'cause like you said, you know, we're, as surf coaches, we are kind of informing the new, the new, new ones coming in or the ones that are interested in learning more. So it's important that we have these conversations.

So anyone else out there who's listening as a surf coach or an experienced surfer, please chime in.

Holly Beck: Yeah. And then also teaching the kids, like my kids are learning to surf My son's nine and, you know, we're having these conversations and it's hard 'cause he's a frothy little guy. He wants to catch every wave that comes in.

Mm-hmm. And I'm like, all right, if you catch every wave that comes in, then people aren't gonna like surfing with you. And when the good one comes, somebody's gonna drop in on you. So go ahead and catch all the scraps. But that doesn't mean you also get the set wave. You either get to wait for the set waves or you catch all the scraps.

You can't have both. Yeah. And so, you know, I, I think that I understand that energy from the young surfers, but I, I do still think that there's an opportunity to teach this other way of thinking. I could be like, no, I was a pro surfer and like, you're my boy and you know, you were born in Costa Rica and you surf here.

You've been surfing here since you were like in my womb. And that means that screw the tourists, you get to go. But that's not what I'm teaching it. And so it's like, it is that opportunity to, you know, teach a different way.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. It kind of comes back to how we. Initiated this conversation a little bit is your perspective on surfing and what you want and what you want outta surfing If you want to be the next Kelly Slater and you're gonna be very isolated in your surfing experience 'cause people won't want to surf with you.

, And so like you said, if you're teaching kids to hey, surf in a way where people want to surf with you, it's that simple really. Like my kids are quite good at, , sports and sometimes they get, uh, alienated at school because no one wants to play with them 'cause they're too good. And I say to them, well you need to play competitive sport in a way so that you get invited back to play again.

So sometimes you wanna pass the ball and instead of score the goal. And I think that was

Holly Beck: such a good analogy

Michael Frampton: that that kind of sums it up. If surf in a way where other people would like to surf with you.

Holly Beck: Now,

Michael Frampton: now when I go surfing and I, and there's a really good surfer in the water and they catch twice the amount of waves as me, that's okay.

'cause I love watching them surf and the way that they negotiate the takeoff zone and the, now if they're catching 10 times the amount of waves as me, then I'm like, nah, okay, come on champ. I'm gonna, I'm gonna push this issue a little bit. So there is a, there is a certain, um, amount of nuance there again, but yeah, I think it's, it's awesome that we have the conversation.

, Yeah. Thanks

Holly Beck: for being willing.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, of course. And hopefully we get some feedback and we can, uh, we can come at it again.

Holly Beck: Sounds good. Um, '

Michael Frampton: cause I mean, etiquette is one thing, but then ethics, that's a whole nother, that is a whole nother conversation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, re remind us of your website, Holly,

Holly Beck: uh, surf with amiga.com.

Michael Frampton: And what do you guys specialize in there?

Holly Beck: Well, we're doing primarily women's, but we have all gender and family retreats, so it's like week long experiences that are all over the world. Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Mexico, Morocco, Panama, Peru, Indonesia. And it, it's definitely kind of from, even when we have the all gender retreats, it's coming from like a female perspective of like encouragement and support and whether it's your first day surfing or you've been surfing your whole life and you just wanna like dial in your tube riding with video feedback, everybody, everybody gets met at the level that they're at with the idea that they have.

They're worthy of catching waves and we'll support them to achieve their goals. It's really fun.

Michael Frampton: Awesome. Can you spell the website for us?

Holly Beck: Yeah. Surf. With Amiga. So Amiga means friends in Spanish. It's A-M-I-G-A-S.

Michael Frampton: Perfect. And I'll have links to that website in the show notes, and of course links to your Instagram where people can chime into this etiquette conversation.

, Go and check out Holly's website and her Instagram. Holly, thank you so much for coming back on the show. Appreciate it.

Holly Beck: Yeah, that's, I, I really enjoyed our first conversation, so I knew that you were the right person to have this one with.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a good conversation and thank you for, , you know, ask, bringing it up really and having the, the no to openly talk about it on Instagram, despite the, the black and white, uh, feedback that everyone loves to give on social media.

It's not easy.

Holly Beck: Yeah. It's fun though. Yes. Even I get like so irritated at one point when I was like aging in the conversation, I was like, I was traveling and I was like, at the airport, the baggage claim. My ride was there and I was like, no, I gotta finish this, like, response to this comment. So yeah, look forward to another round.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Thanks, Holly.

Holly Beck: All right. Cool.

The Surf Mastery Podcast: 

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced