131 Why You’re Missing Waves (and What the Pros See That You Don’t)
Are you truly reading the wave, or just watching water move? Discover how paying attention to the ocean’s smallest details could completely transform your surfing.
If you’ve ever felt stuck in your surf progression, unsure why better technique isn’t getting better results, this episode is your wake-up call. It’s not just about turning sharper or paddling harder, it’s about changing how you see the ocean. Whether you’re an intermediate surfer or decades in, understanding how to focus and read the wave can be the game-changer you’ve been missing.
Learn how world-class surfers like Tom Carroll gain a massive edge by spotting secondary swells, backwashes, and subtle refractions that most surfers miss.
Discover why your technique won’t matter if you can’t focus and how mindfulness and meditation off the board can level up your performance on it.
Shift your entire relationship with surfing by embracing a personal surfing philosophy rooted in joy, longevity, and self-defined progression - not surf industry hype.
Press play to learn how changing your mindset and mastering wave reading can unlock deeper flow, better waves, and more fulfilling sessions in any surf condition.
131
Michael Frampton: [00:00:00] What helped my surfing the most was looking for the details in the wave because I think it's so easy to get lost while you're surfing. A lot of the time you spend either paddling or just sitting there waiting. If you don't have the ability to read the wave properly, technique's not gonna help you.
That is the hardest part of surfing, knowing where to go. 99% of your time surfing. Is not spent surfing. It's paddling around and looking for waves and sitting there staring at the ocean. Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast, education and Inspiration for Better Surfing. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and that was a quote from when I was interviewed for the surf.
Basis podcast. A podcast very similar to this one. I interviewed Van who hosts and produces the podcast, uh, back in episode 1, 2, 3, and he interviewed me for his show. So today I am releasing that conversation, which originally appeared. On the Surf basis podcast.
Van Vu: Alright, welcome to the Basis Surf [00:01:00] podcast.
Very excited because today we got Michael Frampton of the Surf Mastery Podcast. He is one of the OGs in this space. I think you've interviewed over 120 guests at this point. You were one of the original inspirations when I started my podcast as well. 'cause there's just a, a wealth of knowledge in your podcast and in you, yourself as a coach.
Um, and I know you have. Courses as well. But, uh, very excited to get into it, try to extract all the little nuggets that you've picked up over talking to all these people and yeah, so thanks for joining. Thank you so much, fan. It's, it's an honor. Cool. Well, why don't we just dive straight in. I mean, you know, there's a million angles that we could take from this, but I, I think where the place I want to start is, you know, you've interviewed over 120 guests at this point.
What have been kind of the best nuggets, best pieces of wisdom, best pieces of advice that you've, you've been able to get over all these interviews
Michael Frampton: at this point? Yeah. Straight into it. Okay. The thing, what helped my surfing the most was I immediately think [00:02:00] of Tom Carroll. I was lucky enough to be. When I started the podcast, I was actually training Tom Carroll as a personal trainer in the gym, and he was the second guest, number two.
And one of the things he was talking about in that original interview was looking for the details in the wave, and that stuck with me back then back in 2015, as something that I'm constantly trying to improve on is looking for the details and the wave and what Tom meant by that. What I'm still learning is when you're looking at the wave, most people think that there's a wave coming in or there's a, you know, there's a, a one meter swell at 15 seconds and that when that wave hits the beach or the point and it breaks along, that's what we surf.
Yes, that's the main wave. But there back washes, there are secondary and tertiary swells. There's wind chop. There's refractions coming off headlands, even [00:03:00] from miles away, that interact with that main wave. And when we start to see, when we look for, and we start to see those smaller details in the waves, then that's what allows, I mean, surf what and what, um, what fascinated me the most was Tom would've been.
This is, you know, 10 years ago, so I was what, 34? And Tom, Tom would've been like 52 probably. And we went surfing and he's on a smaller surfboard than me, just on these probably waist high waves. At a soft beach break. I was struggling to paddle into the waves. I couldn't even catch these waves, and he's doing full roundhouse cutbacks, just going a hundred miles an hour.
I just couldn't work it out. Like, how are you doing that? Mm-hmm. Obviously, he's a pro and he's been doing it a long time, but. We got to break it down and it was because he's looking for the [00:04:00] details.
Van Vu: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: He, he's looking at how the, that wind chop, that's where I'm gonna put the rail on my surfboard, right inside that wind chop or that refracted wave.
And I'm gonna choose the wave that's meeting. The main swell and kind of wedging up a little bit. That's where I'm gonna chip in and paddle into the wave in the first place. And I wasn't even aware that that's what was going on in surfing until he, he pointed that out. So that was definitely a, a huge nugget and something that I'm always looking for as those real, those just minor little details.
Sometimes when the, at, uh, when the sun's low on the horizon, it's really easy to see. But when the sun's straight up in the sky and the water's murky, it's so hard to see the multiple swells and the wind chops and the water, et cetera. Also, just the way the water moves, like especially in the, some of the beaches in Australia at the time, you get little, they call it a rip bowl, where there's a rip running sort of alongside the, the, the beach break.
The [00:05:00] beach break, and then as the wave's coming in, there's also water drawing. Underneath the wave two. So your board speed is actually faster than the wave's actually going. It's almost acting like a, a wave moving towards the beach as well as a standing wave. So looking for the waves that are doing that more in the set.
So the first wave of the set at a rip bowl is gonna, that's, that's gonna be more powerful 'cause there's actually more water drawing back out from the previous set. There's so many of those little details in surfing. We just don't see as beginners and even as intermediates. Gosh, even, you know, I, I coach a lot of surfers that just have never even thought they've been surfing for 20 years and never even thought or realized it and what.
Part of the reason Tom learned that is because he grew up in a surfing rich culture where his dad surfed and his uncle surfed and his best mates, they all surfed. So they were constantly talking about all this stuff and analyzing each other and surfing different waves. [00:06:00] So, as. Me, I didn't start surfing until I was 17 and I was completely self-taught and we went, when we went to the beach, there was no one else there, there was no one to learn from.
All I had was the magazines, which was all, you know, glorified, glorified performance surfing. So that that little nugget, looking for the details in the wave, that that helped a lot. And I often use the analogy of imagine a mountain biker cruising down a. Down a hill, down a track that's say a meter wide, well, an amateur mountain biker just trying to get down the track using that meter wide track.
But the pro mountain biker is looking, where is the center of my tire going on that track? And what's the fastest way? With the least amount of resistance, the track within the track. So that's what I'm constantly trying to look for when I'm surfing. It does another thing, which I think is really important, which segues into the second point, which is it, it allows you to be more present.
So I remember interviewing [00:07:00] Matt Griggs, who was Mick Fanning's original trainer, uh, with the Rip Curl team, and he was big on meditation. Uh, the mindfulness meditation was kely meditation side of things, and then also interviewing Dr. Michael Vet. Who's the sports psychologist for the Red Bull team, who's also big on the meditation side of things and focusing, focusing on one thing, like your life depends on, it is a, a, not quite the word for word, but it's a quote from him.
So. When you start looking for the details in the wave, it helps you to do that as well. 'cause I think it's so easy to get lost while while you're surfing. You, a lot of the time you spend either paddling or just sitting there waiting, so you kind of get lost and then all of a sudden a wave comes and you're expected to just all of a sudden focus in on all this craziness that's going on.
So learning to to, to meditate outside of the water helped a actually helped a lot. 'cause that's just a [00:08:00] refocusing every time you see your mind sort of drifting off, you, you refocus the ability to, to do that. And then when you're in the ocean, you're focusing on the details in the water. And I think it's, you know, 'cause when you're sitting there waiting for a set to come, another big thing, I remember interviewing Nathan Hedge.
I don't think he talked about it specifically, but I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge. It on the, on the Sydney beaches. And we'd be sitting, everyone would be sitting there waiting for a set, and then all of a sudden you see Nathan start paddling. It's like, wow. Why is he paddling? There's no set coming, and then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set coming and starts paddling.
But Nathan's already, not only has he seen the set before us, he's paddling to where that first wave of the set is going to break because he's just seen it before everyone else. So what has he seen? Well, he is been looking, he's been staring at that little sliver of horizon, right? And when you're sitting there at, you know, you're just above water level, it literally [00:09:00] is like a tiny little sliver of horizon that you're looking at.
Nathan's looking at the tiniest little details. If he sees a, this little, like a, you imagine a a 20 cent coin reflecting three kilometers away, he see, he's seen that or he is seen that slight lump. Right on the horizon. And he's, because of his experience combined with, he's actually focused on looking, he's so hungry.
I want that wave. I want the next set. I want to be first. He's so hungry for it and so focused that he sees it coming first. And again, it's looking for the details, not just in the wave that you're surfing, but while you're waiting, like can you see that set coming before anyone else? Is it an indicator on the headland and the distance?
Is it a shimmer of a, of a chop being lifted by a set coming further than further out than you imagined? Is it a shadow of a set hitting a, a slightly shallower part of the, [00:10:00] of the top, uh, of the oceanography? You know, further out all these little finer details that not only help us to predict 'cause it's a game of what predicting when and where.
To catch a wave that's the best surfer. That's what the best surfers do, right? They predict when and where the wave is gonna break before anyone else, and on a finer detail than anyone else. You can't do that if you can't focus. So looking for the details in the wave and in the ocean as those sets come in combined with increasing.
One's ability to focus and stay present. Those are the two biggest things that come to mind when you ask that question, because that's the, the basis, the foundation of surfing. Right. Is can I see? The wave coming, can I get to where it's going to start break before anyone else ideally. 'cause it's usually crowded and even if it's not crowded, you know the earlier and the better po you are positioning, the more you're gonna get outta that wave.
So yeah, that, that was, [00:11:00] those are two, the two things that come to mind. Yeah,
Van Vu: no, those are, those are great. You know, I think it's so interesting that you mentioned that. I was interviewing Isaac Stanton. He is from the Northshore, uh, no, he is from Maui, big wave surfer over there and competitive surfer. And he talks about how surfing is just advanced basics.
And what does that mean though? Like surfing. And I was talking to Marcello Castellano, like Olympic surf coach and he is like, people get so obsessed with doing a turn, you're just changing direction on a surfboard. But to actually change direction on a surfboard at high speed, you know, on rail is this incredibly intricate, difficult thing to do, but it's simple at the same time.
There's just so many deeper, it just gets deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper The further you go into it, even though on its surface it seems like this very simple thing, and that's exactly what you're talking about, right? Most people look at a wave like you were sitting on that beach with Tom Carroll, and you're looking at that wave and you're like, oh, that's a wave.
And then Tom Carroll sees like a [00:12:00] million things going on in that wave, you know? And. Whoever can interpret and understand all these little subtleties, they're just gonna, they're just gonna have this advantage. And I think it's so true. I mean, I think that that is actually why I was inspired by your podcast, because there wasn't much in terms of surf.
Really granular surf knowledge out there. Um, and that's the reason why I ask such detailed questions as well. It's because you have to get into like the nitty gritty of things to really get the juice and get the value right. And so what you're saying makes so much sense. And it's funny that you also balance it at the same time with that, that need to focus it, right?
Because there is so much, it's this weird, you know, dynamic that you're constantly trying to manage. Where it's incredibly complicated and dense and nuanced, but that can be so overwhelming that that can inhibit people from doing the next best thing that they should be [00:13:00] doing, and they can get overwhelmed.
And then that leads to like analysis paralysis. So you need to both have all that knowledge. But then also be able to focus and use that knowledge when necessary at the right moment in time. And so your focus as well, that other pieces that you mentioned about knowing how to focus, knowing how to quiet your mind becomes like so instrumental when you're also combining it with.
Having all this huge, you know, having so much knowledge and trying to find all these details, but they kind of go together, right? It's like meditation, like, you know, when you meditate you're actually trying to feel as much sensation and observe as much fine details as you can, and that process allows you to focus.
But that's, that's, so that's really interesting that you brought those two up. You know, most of the time when, if. I was gonna ask that question. You know, it would probably be something technical, but instead, this is much more of like this philosophical, deeper, broader approach that really sets you on your journey.
Huh. Oh,
Michael Frampton: yeah, yeah, yeah. It's you. I agree. You gotta get the [00:14:00] fundamentals right and the great, the best surfers in the world, even good surfers. The fundamental skill is reading and predicting the ocean and reading the way that water moves and the way that waves interact. Because if, like, don't get me wrong, you know, I also think of a, you know, the first interview with Clayton.
From Obi, you know, talking about how the surfboard actually works and the basic techniques of a bottom turn and a a top turn. The way he simplifies it is great. But if you don't have the ability to stay focused and present, and if you don't have the ability to read the wave properly, technique's not gonna help you because you can't implement it and you don't know where to implement it.
That's simple. And a lot of times people. The only thing people often when I, I do a lot of online surf coaching is doing a session yesterday and the surfer was doing everything right. He was just doing it about [00:15:00] half a second too early because he wasn't reading the wave properly. He wasn't present, he was just rushing ahead of himself.
His body position was good. His technique was, was good. He was just doing it all. He just had bad timing essentially because he didn't know what to look for. He didn't know he wasn't reading the way the water was moving and, and, and knowing where to put his surfboard. So it's a very holistic thing, but I think it is the foundation.
Like there's no point working on your bottom turn technique if you don't have the wherewithal and awareness to know where to put that bottom turn and to know and to be. Calm and present enough to know to implement that technique in the moment. 'cause a lot of the times surfing almost feels like, like you're, you're dancing in a disco and the strobe light's going.
It's like these quick little flashes of what goes on. You pull off a wave and you're not really sure what happened 'cause you were so excited and maybe a little bit scared or feeling a little bit of shame or how do I look? [00:16:00] Or that sort of thing. So, and that. You know, for me that sort of being focused encompasses all of that.
It's not as simple as just, you know, meditate for five minutes a day. It's, you know, there's a lot that goes behind that. When I work with someone, you know, we we're talking about developing your own personal surfing philosophy, like are, are you actually just a puppet of the surf industry? You're out there on a shortboard trying to rip a turn, or have you actually sat down and thought about.
Where do you want to see yourself in 10 years time? Who actually do you wanna surf? Like would you wouldn't, you would, maybe you'd rather surf like Devin Howard than Kelly Slater, or maybe you'd just be happy just out there on a long board, just gliding along. A lot of people haven't even thought that through, and a lot of people approach.
Their relationship with surfing in a very short term, hedonistic way. Whereas I'm, I'm here to say, no, no, no. Look, look at skip fry. He's in his eighties. He's still surfing like you. This is a long term relationship. Everything you do now [00:17:00] is, is compounding over time. It's compound interest. So when people sort of just 'cause I see surfing as more of an art really than, than a sport and it's.
How do you wanna surf a wave? What kind of board do you wanna surf? Let's get outta that mentality of letting the surf industry decide for you. 'cause we go on Instagram, we're just fed whatever the surf, the latest surfboard that everyone shortboard, that everyone wants to buy, and. So-and-so did this air or whatever.
It's fun to watch, don't get me wrong, but I, so, so yeah, developing your own personal surfing philosophy and then, you know, understanding that surfing is a relationship and how you want to interact with the ocean and, and surfboards, et cetera. So there's a lot of mindset, psychology and philosophy that goes in behind that as well, which I think is something.
That definitely comes through in, in my podcast o over time, and obviously the technique stuff is really [00:18:00] important, but I think that's actually secondary because it's really, really hard to implement, implement the way that you do a turn and change the way you turn if you don't have all that other stuff sorted out first.
And it just allows you to be calm. And have a lot less anxiety. 'cause anxiety in the surf, surf shame, we've all felt it. That just robs us of the present moment in the flow state, which is when time slows down and we actually, so when time is slowing down and you feel like, oh man, that wave was in slow motion.
I knew, I knew what my little finger was doing. That's 'cause you didn't care what you looked like. You're, you got a good relationship with surfing. You were focused. On the ocean. You weren't focused on what other people were looking at or what's happening. You know that section way down there, you were present and you were focused.
Time slowed down. Now we can look at changing your, the way you surf your technique and we can start looking at footage. And so I see surfing surfing's a very holistic
Van Vu: Yeah, that's very interesting.[00:19:00]
That's, it is actually making me think like, this is interesting. Usually when I have podcasts, we don't get into these kinds of philosophical discussions, but this, this, this point that you're making about, you know, the stress. That every surfer goes through, regardless of your ability level. You know, I remember I was viewing Ridge Lenny and he was talking about how like bummed he would get like, because he was working on his turns and he was trying to do, I mean this guy surfs a hundred foot waves at Nazare, right?
He absolutely rips. He does airs and he was telling me about how like bummed he would get just when he's trying to tweak his turns, you know? So even surfers at the highest of, highest of elite levels still. Struggle with what you're talking about. You know? And I guess the interesting thing though is I like how you're approaching it from this like broader philosophical approach.
'cause I think that that mindset can just make, can make approaching [00:20:00] surfing and dealing with your setbacks much gentler. You know, and, and I, I would imagine that that is such an, especially in such a judgemental. The, the way surfing can be kind of culture. I think having that, like knowing how to reframe things, knowing how to focus and, and quiet your mind, knowing how to define your own standards of surfing and not measure it against why am I not doing errors or why am I, you know, comparing yourself to Kelly s slate.
I think that is really important. Right. So it's, it is, it makes a lot of sense. But it's interesting. I also, when I think about it, 'cause when you were describing that, it just made me think. About my own process. You know, and it's interesting 'cause I've actually personally done a ton of meditation. I used to do like, there were like five years I was meditating, two hours a day.
I was really focused in on it. And you know, I feel like I've done a lot of that work, but for me, this is just personal. Maybe you can give me some coaching here for me, even though I will. [00:21:00] I think it's both sides. I, I think if, if I, you know, 'cause I'm, I'm sure other people are having this question, so maybe you can help other people.
They're like, they might have the same question I do. So that, 'cause I, I find this discussion interesting, right? Because I can approach a situation where. It's an intense packed lineup. Right. And you know, everybody's being watched, everybody's being judged. One of the spots I surf, there's like, it's a small town and you know, it's somewhere in Central America.
I know. I know. Most of the guys in the lineups, they're all tons of locals. Like everybody on the beach is just sitting there watching you surfing. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So, and then that determines your pecking order. That determines so many things. You know, there's a lot that, that's the interesting thing about surfing is it's actually intensely social.
Right. So it's a situation where you can get really in your head. Oh, yeah. Now the thing is, for me personally, like when I'm paddling out there, I will say. Those like affirming things to myself, you know what I'm saying? I'll be like, you're, [00:22:00] you know, it's not about other people. You don't need to compare yourself to other people.
You know, all these things and which I think are, are healthy, but you still have that little thing, that little voice in the back of your head. And for me, the only way that I shut that off is if I put in the work and I put in the volume and I actually like do so much work that I have the confidence I actually will.
Perform well and then that's when I feel like I have true confidence. 'cause otherwise there's still always this disconnect of where I feel like I should be versus where I'm actually, where I actually am. Regardless of like what kind of like mental framework. I think the mental framework helps like soften that.
But I feel like if I haven't put the work in, then if I haven't gotten the volume in, if I hadn't caught enough waves, then I still. Maybe that's just my ego. Maybe that's just me not having evolved to a certain place, you know? But what would you say to that?
Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, it's common and it's understandable.
I don't necessarily think that [00:23:00] feeling ever disappears. Yeah. But when, when you really sit down and, and decide what is it that you want to get outta surfing and you question yourself. Like, oh, may, maybe, let me, let me put it this way. Have you ever been sitting on the beach and seen a good surfer mess up a wave and not surf to their potential?
Van Vu: Oh, of
Michael Frampton: course. Did you think less of that person?
Van Vu: No. I mean, well, the, the thing is that you, it, it, it's pattern recognition. That's the way human beings are wired. Right? If they consistently blow it, then you're gonna be like, oh, you know. But if they're, if they blow every once in a while, then you're like, okay, you know?
Michael Frampton: Yeah, but e, E, even if said person consistently blew it for a period of time, would you stop being friends with them?
Van Vu: Yeah,
Michael Frampton: of course you wouldn't. No, of course not. Right? Would they maybe potentially go down the pecking order a little bit in terms of getting set waves? Of course surfing, there's a hierarchy of competence in [00:24:00] surfing, and there's nothing worse than surfers wasting waves.
So understanding the surf culture. Part of it as well.
Van Vu: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: And then that makes you think, oh gosh, maybe, maybe I don't wanna be fighting for set waves because of the pressure. So maybe I'm gonna, maybe I'm gonna buy an 11 foot glider and surf over there where no one else is surfing. Yeah. And just enjoy the pure joy of just gliding along a wave.
Van Vu: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: So it's sort of thinking deeper. Where do those pressures. Come from, whether they're external pressures from a crowd or internal pressures against how you surfed last week 'cause you were surfing more or where you think you should be again, it can, what, what do you want to get out of today's surf?
And there's nothing you can do of, you know, if you're, if you live somewhere and it's always crowded, there's nothing you can do about that usually. [00:25:00] However, I always find there's always. Somewhere where a different kind of surfboard would be surfing different kind of waves up the beach or around the corner where there's far less people.
That's reminds me of another episode with Aaron James, a philosopher. He calls it adventure surfing, where he is just choosing the type of board and the to suit a different kind of wave that no one else surfs, which is what I was doing for a long time when I was living in California. Everywhere is crowded except when you're buying an 11 foot glider and just.
You can surf over there where the waves are kind of breaking, but no one else is surfing. You just paddle over there and catch 20 waves in half an hour and you didn't rip a big turn or anything, but you still connected with surfing, connected with nature. Went through the process and that sort of, oh, I should be surfing like said surfer.
On the on, on the tour. That just disappears and. That's what's cool about surfing is there's [00:26:00] so many different ways to surf. That's why I like to think of surfing as far more of an art form than it is a sport. 'cause obviously when you think of a sport and in another individual sport like tennis, you know, you, there's.
There's far more restrictions if you turn up to play tennis with some weird looking ball and some oversized racket. I mean, people might not wanna play with you, right? But in surfing you can choose where you surf, what waves you surf, what surfboard, the style of surfing you wanna do. It's more like music, you know what I mean?
Whereas you can be an amazing jazz musician and know all of the theory and be a technical virtuoso as a jazz musician, but no one ever hires you. They just don't really like your music. Or you can be some teenage punk band that's just playing bar chords, but you are, you're so confident in what you are playing and your style and people actually like it.
And then obviously everything in between. So with surfing, you get to choose your style of surfing [00:27:00] and. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can think of the, the teenage punk band. They don't feel the pressure. Oh, I'm not a, I'm not a classical jazz musician with perfect technique. They don't care because they just love getting on stage or sitting at home in their bedroom, just practicing bar chords.
There's no, whereas. That's the beautiful thing about music, I think is it's accepted that there's different genres and you can be a great musician in a very simple way, whereas in surfing, it's sort of the, I think the industry has got a lot to answer for in terms of the pressure it puts on on us. Oh, you need to be surfing the latest shortboard.
Doing top to bottom surfing, or you need to be surfing a mid length like Devon Howard, or a long board like Joel Tudor with, well, you don't, you could just be like skip fry and just stand there looking right. Graceful and in tune with the wave. As long as you are not getting in people's way, it doesn't really matter.
I think obviously there's some rules in surfing. You don't wanna annoy people or get in their way and there's ethics you've [00:28:00] gotta respond to, but apart from that, you know, you get to choose what you want to get out of your relationship with the
Van Vu: ocean. Yeah. It's so interesting. I like this. It's like, it's really a question of values.
Like what do you. What do you wanna take outta your surfing? What kind of surfing do you find aesthetic and beautiful? Like what do you aspire to? You know? And that's really gonna drive your approach to it, which makes a lot of sense. You know, I'm definitely guilty of that. I'm just obsessed with progression, you know, so I don't even question it.
But I do think that there is a lot of, I mean, and when I say progression, like I, I think all of that is beautiful, you know, but I'm the kind of person that's always obsessed, like, okay, how can I do a better turn? Whereas your decision might not even be like, I don't even care about turns. I just wanna like take the most beautiful line.
And you're right. That has just as much, that has just as much. Kind of value and, and is just as valid a form of surfing as all the other ones. You [00:29:00] know?
Michael Frampton: Definitely I've been there. I've, you know, I wanted to, that's what got me in, that's what was the birth of the podcast. I wanted to know what surfing's so amazing, but what does it feel like to do a cutback like that?
Oh my goodness. And the, the progression is obvious and there's a. A well-formed line in terms of performance in the surf coaches that do video analysis everywhere, and it's a great pursuit to do. I think now I'm a bit older. It's sort of. It's not like I've let go of progression, it's just I've defined it in a different way.
So trying to maneuver a a giant surfboard through small waves is really challenging. It's really hard to do. I challenge anyone to go out there and try and surf a, a massive surfboard at a novelty surf, breakthrough. A crowd, I think is. It is a different kind of challenge. It's not easy. People make it look easy or I, or maybe the challenge is I'm just gonna sit out the back and catch that one big set that comes in 40 [00:30:00] every 40 minutes.
You know, you can think, think of the old salt salty dogs who that's their goal. Yeah. So there's, I I, I guess it depends on how you define progression. I think also maintaining a, a level of surfing ability as you age is a pro, is a progression in itself. And don't get me wrong, if, if it's. You know, if it's, if it's six foot clean and barreling, I wanna be on a shortboard.
Right. It just so happens it's not often like that.
Van Vu: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: So true.
Van Vu: No, it, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, when I interviewed Chris from Pilgrim here in, in New York, you know, he, he, he talked a lot about just getting on a, a glider and just the, the sensations and the feelings that he would get from riding. An 11 foot skip fry in like the tiniest of tiny waves.
And that's exactly how you described it, is like, it's not easy, it's its own kind of challenge. Right. And that's often those challenges are, are oftentimes your, your greatest teachers. And so do you think, you know, as somebody that probably just deserves surfs, like a large variety of craft, [00:31:00] like what has riding an 11 foot glider, how has that informed your, you know, surfing on smaller boards?
Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Huge. That was an interview I did probably five years ago with Bud Freis in Santa Cruz. He said, just get on a log. It's the best thing you can do for your shortboarding. I didn't really believe it at the time, but every, after every interview, I'd always try and implement at least one main takeaway from each interview.
So I, I bought a log and started long boarding and. It forces you, you have to predict the wave in a very different way. When you're surfing a big surfboard, you read the wave differently, you interact with the wave very differently. And then when you jump back on a shortboard, it feels so much easier in a way because you've, you've kind of almost learned a different way to surf and you, you've had to hone in on some of the, some different details.
On the wave, look for different lines. You, you [00:32:00] make, 'cause of the surfboard itself is, is longer and heavier. You end up surprising yourself how, what sections you can make, what lines you can take to stay, to stay balanced. You have to choose your line much earlier because it's not as agile. And all of those lessons can be applied to a shortboard just to refine.
The way you move and interact with the board, but also obviously the way you read the ocean as well. And the same, I think the same goes with all different surfboards. Obviously with a, a big 11 foot glider that's even exaggerated more 'cause it's even longer and heavier than a, than a long board. But then you can go to the other extreme, you know, I've got, I've.
Got surfer five two fish, and all of a sudden you've got almost zero swing weight and it's very touchy and sensitive, and you have to read the ocean and your wave selection changes. And then I just interviewed Donald Brink and he was talking about going as narrow as 12 inches on a surfboard. Yeah. Like going, how, how narrow can a surfboard [00:33:00] be?
Van Vu: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: And I, it's all, I, I often think of it as like, let's say you're a. Let's say you are a musician and you play punk music, but you go off and spend a week learning jazz. When you come back to playing punk, you're going to, it's gonna be so much easier, and you're gonna hear, oh, you know what? I could add this note in.
Oh, I could write a song. It's still a punk song, but I'm gonna write it based on the stuff I learned at jazz school. So what, whatever you choose to do, whenever you step out of it and come back. It. You bring those lessons with you, but more so it just makes you a more rounded surfer too. You think of a musician that has, has played all different styles.
They might have one style they play most often, but every influence they've had and every mu, every instrument they learn, informs, informs them, makes them more adaptable. If you wanted to work as a musician, you could fit into any band. The more. The more instruments you play, the more styles of music you learn.
[00:34:00] And because surfing's so dynamic, we want that arsenal. You know what I mean? Like I still see, I still, there's a, a break I surf here, which is, I call it a novelty wave. It's a point break and it's a very soft wave. It's very much a long board wave. But every time I go out there, there's 20 year olds on performance short boards, just pumping and hopping, and.
Just getting front yelling, getting frustrated, and just like it's, I get you want to, you wanna learn how to surf a shortboard, but when the waves are waist high or knee high, why do you know? It's so much more fun to ride the surfboard that is appropriate for the conditions. And, you know, you can surf anything from Kneehigh to a hundred foot.
There is no limit in surfing. You know, the, the, when you say progression. This wave size is a progression in itself. How, how far are you willing to push that wave speed? You can, you know, book a, anyone can nowadays can just [00:35:00] book a trip to the tropics and go and surf crazy groundswells and warm water surfing is so awesome.
And the more we learn about different boards and, and styles of surfing, I think the just makes you more adaptable. Adaptability is, is a massive one in surfing, I think. Is it?
Van Vu: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: Even, even at a wave pool, you know, every wave's a little bit different.
Van Vu: Yeah. I remember, I think Steph was talking about, you know, what she's focused on now that, you know, she's not competing, is focused on competing, and she's like, oh, I, I just wanna focus on like how I perform in different variety of waves.
That's literally what she's focused on right now. It's just there's a different set of conditions that I want to get good at. You're Stephanie Gilmore, you're probably good in everything, but there's, even for her, she's still like, I want to, I wanna be better in whatever, crappy waves or bigger waves or whatever that might be.
You know? So that adaptability is so key. Well, so what are some of the, the biggest mistakes that you've seen people make? You know, what? What, as you know. What do you see people do? I mean, you, you've talked [00:36:00] about board choice, you've talked about wave selection, you've talked about the mental things. Are, is there anything else that you think really stands out to you as something that, you know, is something that people struggle with a lot?
Michael Frampton: The, I think most, most surfers, it's that shame factor that gets in their way. They're, they're ashamed of the way they surf in it. It's a catch 22. 'cause it often drives them to get better and drives their progression.
Van Vu: Yep.
Michael Frampton: But if you think of a, I use the musician analogy again, the musician isn't, isn't going to practice on stage because if they, if you had to practice on stage as a musician, there'd be a lot of shame for years until you got good enough.
But you can practice in your bedroom without. There's no fear of other people's opinions in your bedroom. So the hardest part of getting better at surfing is trying to, the problem with surfing is you have to do it on stage. 'cause there's usually, you don't really wanna surf by yourself, especially if you're a beginner.
So letting go [00:37:00] of that fear of the way you look or what other people think of the way you surf is a huge one. 'cause that's the only thing that's gonna allow you to focus on the wave. First of all, so I often say to beginners, I mean, stop trying to learn how to surf. At first point, Malibu like, just, just go down to a closeout beach break and, and catch a hundred whitewater waves.
You get to, you know, there is a difference between a, a whitewater wave and a whitewater wave. You can still learn how to read better. There's better whitewater waves. You know, you can still learn all the fundamentals of surfing, you can practice it and at close out beach breaks. On soft tops. There's less shame 'cause the only other people there are the people learning to surf or the the person sunbathing on the beach who's not even looking at you anyway.
So there are ways to have less of that shame. So I actually think maybe it's have getting therapy done or figuring out or actually thinking about some of these deeper things about surfing philosophy that will help you. In terms of that. And then [00:38:00] so there's, that's the bigger overarching mistake that people make, which essentially is a lack of focus really.
Because if you're feeling shame or anxiety, then that's just, it's just robbing your ability to focus on the present moment, which, and the wave and the way the board feels underneath you. 'cause you're worried about how you look or falling off, et cetera. It just robs you of that flow, state of that focus.
'cause when you, like, when you watch kids learn to surf, they don't care. They don't compare themselves to anyone, they're just messing around. They start playing in the whitewater with nothing, and then they go to a bodyboard and then they jump on dad's surfboard and they just pure stoke on the joy of interacting with the ocean, just riding the wave.
So they don't have, just 'cause they're kids, they don't have that shame. So if we can, I think as adult learners, or adults that want to get better. As they age, you can adopt that sort of childhood joyous mindset and not care about what people think. Easier said than done. That's, that is [00:39:00] a big mistake that, that people make.
Board choice is another one. You know, there's a lot of people out there just riding the, the wrong surfboards for the conditions. So I think matching the surfboard to the, not only the conditions, but to your level of surfing as well as like, sit down, have a think, do I really care about. Riding a performance shortboard, I think you'll find most people don't, they're like, actually, you know what I could do with a bit more volume and I just have more fun 'cause I know I'm not gonna, you know, so that, that's, that's the classic one that's, that's big.
And then I, once you have the ability to, to focus in on surfing and then be on the right surfboard, then yeah. Cleaning up your technique is, is the obvious one there. Obviously getting some footage and working with a surf coach is. Is, is a good strategy, but I often, a lot of dry land, like outside of the water training is, I think is underutilized nowadays.
So, you know, there's, I call it a, it's almost like a 1% ratio. So if you're surfing for an hour or [00:40:00] 90 minutes or a hundred, let's say, let's say you go surfing for a hundred minutes. Probably one of those minutes is actually surfing. I think that's quite a generous ratio. Oh yeah. So for sure. Yep. So think about that.
You're, you're standing on a surfboard for one minute, for every hour and a half that you surf. How are you gonna develop the strength, the body awareness, the balance, all of those just fundamental athletic principles, how it's gonna take you years. So why not stand in front of a mirror and work on your technique?
Work on some surf specific strength drills to, to be able to pop up smoothly and know what does a good functional surf stance look like? What does it feel like? All those, and then maybe even jump on a skateboard and, and lock in some of those surfing moves the way that a musician would run scales and chords.
They're not necessarily playing a song. They're learning the basics and the fundamentals of the song. They wanna [00:41:00] play or learn by learning the chords and holding them so they sound nice and learning the scales. How do they sound? How do they feel or, and look at other, you know, older surfing's very young.
It's a young sport or art form. Look at martial arts most of your time when you're practicing martial arts is, first of all, a lot of it's philosophy. Sometimes you're just standing there listening to the, the, the coach or the or the sifu speak about the philosophy of the tradition and then secondly, you're going through forms or Carters slow the movements that you need to do in a sparring situation.
You're doing it slowly or strength training that movement. Purposely in front of a mirror, whether it's hitting a bag or doing the slow motion movements with someone in front of you. Only then can you go into a sparring situation where let's say you, let's say you wanna lift your arm up to do a block.
If that movement of lifting your arm up to do a block isn't ingrained in your [00:42:00] nervous system and is almost thoughtless, there's no way you're gonna be able to do that movement in time as someone's throwing a punch at you because you're just. You're so scared. And essentially Kelly Slater calls surfing a martial art.
And I like that analogy 'cause it's so, it's such a stressful situation, surfing. 'cause even if you're not aware of it consciously, subconsciously, your brain knows you're in water, you bump your head That's. And that happens all the time in little waves. People bump their head and they drown or they come or they have to be rescued.
The sharks. This the list of danger. This, this is part of the reason why surfing is so fun is 'cause it actually is dangerous, whether you realize it or not. And then the surfing is a game of getting as close to the white water as you can without falling off as close to the most powerful part of the wave.
You're toying with mother nature's energy. And when the waves get decent, that's, there's a lot of energy there, and that's what martial arts is, right? You're playing with an external force trying to dance. This good martial artist will dance with [00:43:00] aspiring partner, an external force, and flow with it naturally, but only if they've practiced those movements and learnt them ingrained in their nervous system.
Only then can they implement those movements with speed under a stressful situation. So you think a great, we take it for granted how much time and effort and repetitions that these surfers who are good at it, put it. They've been surfing since they were four. Yeah. Now they spent five years learning how to read the ocean and playing in the ocean and getting slammed onto the, before they even stood up on a surfboard.
Probably a lot of them just playing in the white water and messing around. Before they even caught an unbroken wave. I'm watching my kids learn to surf and it's, you know, they've been in at the beach almost all summer. Every summer for my 13, for 13 years. My 13-year-old, only this summer or last summer was he really starting to kind of get surfing.
That's how long it takes. Surfing is a long [00:44:00] term thing.
Van Vu: Oh yeah.
Michael Frampton: And, but I, I think the cool thing as an adult learner is you can. Learn. I mean, look at Brad, Brad Gerlach, who's got the wave key, for example, where he's kind of literally broken the movements of surfing down into a martial arts kind of thing.
That's next level, and you don't have to necessarily go that far, although I do think it's great, but the simple, keep getting your paddling fitness up like with your product is one big thing. And then learning how to do a popup in slow motion. Is another thing, and then learning what a basic surf stance is and how it feels.
You get those three fundamentals sorted. Surfing. My philosophy is that once you stand up on your surfboard with your feet in the right spot, in the right part of the wave, on a good wave, the rest of surfing is easy. What happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet? That is the hardest part of surfing, reading, knowing where to go.
Reading the ocean, paddling around, predicting [00:45:00] when and where the wave is going to break. Entering that wave with good timing, popping up with good timing. That is putting. Making sure your feet are in the right spot, making sure you're not standing too tall or too low, having a good, simple surf stance, all of that stuff.
It's all the hardest part of surfing, no matter what level you are. Once you're standing up, surfing's actually pretty simple, especially when you look at someone like ey, like he barely moves his body. It's all timing. It's all timing and rhythm. So the I, I think people also underestimate just how hard it is to paddle into a wave or to to paddle, to where the waves breaking and then paddle into the wave and pop up is the most athletically demanding part of surfing as well.
If you think that it's yoga with dolphins, you're dreaming. You have no, like you, when you watch these athletes, they make it look easy. Yes. But they, they are very strong paddlers. They have very strong at popping up and they have a lot of strength and mobility through those movements. Most of them will take it for granted 'cause they've [00:46:00] been doing it since they were four years old.
But that doesn't mean that we can't develop that with dry land training and. Starting to learn, what do we look for when we go surfing? Like that, sort of like knowing how to focus, what to focus on and training the body like a martial artist would train. That's the basis and, and, and paddling and your paddling fitness and all that stuff.
That's the basis of your, of your surfing experience. And it's ironically, it's what we spend most of the time doing.
Van Vu: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: Like 99% of your time surfing. It's not spent surfing, it's paddling around and looking for waves and sitting there staring at the ocean, but a hundred percent. Yeah, no, I've, but you know, this 2015 where I really started to focus on, I was determined on getting better.
I, I don't regret all any of it because now. Because I spent years just obsessed with surfing and focused on it and trying to get better and figuring out all this stuff. If I don't surf for a little while, [00:47:00] I can still go out in a, into a crowded lineup and, and even if I've never been there before. 'cause just 'cause I know what to look for, I can go out and, and get a set wave and surf, but not as good as any of the locals obviously.
But just 'cause I know what to look for and it's such a cool place to be with your surfing. It's just to have that ability just to paddle out when you do get a moment. And just enjoy, you know, I choose the right surfboard for my fitness level and for the waves. I know what to look for. I know how to, to read the waves.
But the, the, the break eye surf, I'd say one, maybe two out of every 20 waves that come through is actually quite surfable. It's a very novelty wake. You've gotta have the refractions from the headland and the, the right periods and the two swells meeting up for the wave to actually peel. Most people, I, I know how to choose those waves 'cause I know what's, 'cause I know what to look for.
So, yeah, I, I think being probably one of the biggest mistakes actually, to give you an over an overall answer is people [00:48:00] just aren't obsessed with surfing enough. I kind of agree. Like, it's almost like, and I went through a stage two where I was sort of was like, I felt this obsession and it felt selfish and it felt wrong.
I was like, I almost di denied it from myself. And then, then as I got a bit older, I was like, you know what? So what. I love surfing that night. Why not be obsessed with it? And that time I spent years just honestly, if I wasn't surf, every spare moment, I still had a job. I was still raising a family. But every spare moment I had, I was surf either surfing or watching surfing or researching what surfboards to wear, or watching tutorials on YouTube or reading, reading.
There's, there's books on how to read water. I was upset. I was reading a different, I was trying different trainers and physical therapists to get the body in tune. Ev like for years, every single spare moment was surfing, surfing, surfing. And once I [00:49:00] accepted that and dove in, that's when I got better. So surfing is, it is one of the hardest sports or arts.
Oh my
Van Vu: god.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. 'cause of all those complexities, we just. Touched the surface on, but that's what makes it so interesting and, and cool.
Van Vu: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: Is, is, is how
Van Vu: tricky it is. It is the deepest puzzle that I've ever tried to crack myself. That's why I'm so obsessed with it. And I feel like that's why everybody's so obsessed with it.
'cause it's so fricking hard. Yeah. But then if you put the work in and you, it pays off, it's the best feeling in the world. Oh yeah. Oh man. Yeah. So that, that would be
Michael Frampton: my, that would be my, my challenge to anyone listening is just do one year obsessed. Let's go through one season, summer. Spring, winter, autumn, or fall.
Go through one one season of being obsessed with surfing. Spend your money on surf trips and surfboards and surf education and training equipment and personal trainers, or spend all your money on everything [00:50:00] surfing. Follow. The Ragland Surf Report and Jonathan Wayne Freeman on Instagram and learn about surf culture through satire.
Like read books on how to read water, do every course that's out there on surfing. Go work with a local coach, work with online coaches. Just spend all of your money and your time obsessing and learning about surfing for one year, and then see how you feel after a year. 'cause it takes, I think it takes at least one year of obsessing with surfing before you even begin to know whether you even want to keep pursuing it.
So many, so many people you see start surfing in summer. They have all this great experience on a soft top and warm water, and then all of a sudden it gets a little bit bigger and the water gets colder as summer ends, and then they give up. That's it. Well, no, come on. You haven't even, you go through the, the, the autumn and the winter, and then as spring starts to get warmer and warmer your second summer of surfing.
If [00:51:00] you can push through that, my goodness. It's, it's so much deeper and, and more fun. That's the thing about surfing is it's so much fun. But I think like any relationship, you're gonna go through hard times. And if you, if you like any long-term relationship, whether it's with a human or the ocean, you can't expect it to be amazing all of the time.
There's gonna be challenges. Now there's plenty of, I've never regretted a surf, but there's been plenty of times where I've forced myself to go surfing.
Van Vu: Oh yeah. And that's so funny. 'cause. You don't even, you've only been surfing for a year or two. You haven't even gotten to the fun part. You know, I mean, you've gotten a taste like the tiniest, tiniest of tastes, and that piece, that taste that you get is like the best piece of cake you've had in your entire life, but you have no idea.
What is awaiting you, you know what I'm saying? Like getting your first barrel, that piece of cake that you had is just gonna feel like something complete. You know, like you can't even explain it. So yeah, [00:52:00] those are, those are really wise words. I love it. Yeah. I really like your philosophical, like big picture approach, which I think is.
Really unique. I haven't really heard people think about it or talk about in that context. I've heard little slivers of it. You know, there's, there's definitely philosophical surfers, but I've never, I've never had a philosophical surf education discussion, so I, I really appreciate that. But we gotta work towards closing up.
I got a couple, few last questions for you.
Michael Frampton: Well, let me just say firstly, let, oh, yeah. All of that, all that stuff I've touched on, I've. The stuff I've learned through not only doing the podcast and interviewing all these people, but whilst I was on that journey, I was putting all those lessons into place on my own surfing, as well as working as a surf coach.
So all that stuff is all in a course on surf mastery.com. So if you go to surf mastery.com, there's a mini course that gives a really concise overview of, of the stuff that happens in between when the surfboard's under your arm and under your feet, essentially, all the stuff that other coaches aren't.
[00:53:00] Going into, and then all the stuff, technique stuff, I, I do as a one-on-one sessions as well, which you can, you can book there at, at surf mastery.com as well. Awesome.
Van Vu: And then are you on, you're on Instagram, what's, what's your social media handle?
Michael Frampton: Yes, Instagram Surf Mastery on Instagram as well. Yep. I'm not overly active on there, but I definitely, if I want, once I post a new show, I'll, I'll put a little snippet on there and certainly add some of the, the, the more, some of the more curated surfing that I see on Instagram ends up on my story as well.
Van Vu: Okay. Got it. All right then. So people know where to find you. I last three questions and these are you, we, we gotta, we'll keep these ones short 'cause these are actually big questions, but just like your short answer, any light bulb moments when it came to technique bottom time, they either light bulb moments either when you interviewed somebody or in a realization you had yourself when it came to technique.
Michael Frampton: I mean, I remember my first proper bottom turn. And [00:54:00] remembering how, how much strength it took to do it and how much force was going through the board and my legs at the time. I was quite surprised and I was lucky to, to enough to have having been filmed. So I saw evidence and it was the first time I'd really sling shotted back up the wave, you know, three times faster than every other bottom turn that I'd done previous.
And it took, gosh, you know, that was 15 years into my surfing journey before that happened.
Van Vu: Yeah.
Michael Frampton: And it's the, in terms of everything, everything that happens after you've stood up on a surfboard, the bottom turn is the basis of that for sure. Alright.
Van Vu: Any light bulb moments when it came to boards or fins?
Michael Frampton: Oh yeah, lots. I mean, getting, getting into long boarding was a big one, I would say. Yeah. Just getting into bigger surfboards. Yep. Whether that's a. A big, a bigger, you know, whether that's a seven foot mid-length or a 10 foot long board, just stepping outside of the, of the shortboard [00:55:00] mainstream and whatever the mainstream pushes at you.
So I would say my first one was, was getting a log. I got a a nine, it was a nine eight Wayne Rich that I got. That really sort of made me fall in love with bigger surfboards, which then led to a bigger glider and, and, and some of the mid lengths as well.
Van Vu: Okay. And what is your intention when you go for a surf?
What goes through your brain?
Michael Frampton: Ooh, my intention when I go for a surf, first thing that comes to mind is to enjoy it, like to have fun. And I think the funnest thing is, is molding with or dancing with nature. Like listening to the wave and, and what whatever surfboard I've chosen and whatever wave I'm surfing, just trying to be in tune with that and do what's right in that moment to dance with, with, with nature and, and be in a flow state.
That's the intention. I always, there's a quote I like to say to, to people, which is, don't try and catch the [00:56:00] wave. Accept the invitation to dance. So there's another little tip there in the mindset. And I think that's a good question because yeah, if you're trying to catch the wave, there's this certain, like you are trying to, you know, you're, you're trying to go hunting for it or something and catch it.
Well, the wave's just gonna do what it does. You actually, if your intention is just to accept, it's inviting you, the wave wants you to be on it. If you have that. Initial intention, the wave wants you to dance with it. Then it's not only gonna help you catch the wave, but help you sort of get in in into sync with it a bit more often.
And that's what all good surfing is. Really, it's in sync with the wave. Alright, I guess we'll close
Van Vu: it on that. Well, thanks for joining, Michael. This was a pleasure and people know where to find you and yeah, well, yeah, a lot to do this again sometime. This was fun. Awesome. Thanks Van. Appreciate it.
Michael Frampton: Thank you so much for tuning into the show.
If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. Make sure you subscribe and of course, go and check out the Surf [00:57:00] Basis podcast. Uh, van has quite the back catalog. And remember, if you like what you heard in this episode, make sure you go ahead and check out the Surf Mastery Method mini course. And all other free products available@surfmastery.com.
You know what? You know why I made the course. It's, uh, we all know how important the bottom turn is to set up the wave, but do you know what's more important than the bottom turn? It's how you pop up. Yeah. If your pop up isn't smooth and balanced. Good luck trying to get a good bottom turn in. And guess what?
If you haven't read the ocean well and chose a right wave and timed your popup well, looked where and when to pop up, set the right line, all the stuff that happens before you even get to your feet, if you've messed all of that up, a good bottom turn simply isn't going to happen. So that is what my course is all about.
What happens between when the board. It's under your arm and under your feet. That [00:58:00] includes the popup reading waves, the stuff that really makes the difference in your surfing journey. That is what the Surf Mastery Method mini course is all about. So go ahead and check that out@surfmastery.com. And also remember, the Surf Mastery Podcast is their educational back catalog.
So go through and listen to each episode if you're new to the show until next time, to keep surfing.
The Surf Mastery Podcast:
For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced