036: The 'Surfers' Relationship to Surfing
SHOW NOTES:
Is surfing still a soulful pursuit — or has it become just another addiction we justify?
For lifelong surfers, the line between passion and obsession can blur fast. In this deep, brutally honest conversation, Michael Frampton and returning guest Scott Bass explore how our relationship with surfing matures (or doesn’t) as life’s priorities shift — from chasing swells to raising families to redefining self-worth beyond the next good session.
Discover why your relationship to surfing is just as important as your relationship with others
Learn how to balance stoke with responsibility without killing your passion
Hear personal stories of guilt, growth, obsession, and spiritual maturity from two surfers who've been through it all
Hit play now for a powerful exploration of what it really means to be a surfer — and how to surf through life with more clarity, connection, and self-respect.
Scott and I discuss our relationships to the ocean & surfing, try to define what a surfer is, and if we even want to be be labeled as one. Is surfing an addiction? Can it be a ‘positive addiction’? Is your surfing guilt-free? How important is surfing to you? Has surfing lost it’s ‘cool’? Are you the master of your surfing? Or is surfing the master of you?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/philosophy-stirred-not-shaken/201411/are-there-positive-addictions
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/stronger-the-broken-places/201703/relationships-are-surfing
https://boardroomshow.com/
http://www.spitpodcast.com/
http://www.surfingpaddling.com
Key Points
Discussion begins about defining what makes someone a surfer, with the suggestion that surfing must be in one's top 5 relationships.
Exploration of how life decisions (career, relationships) are influenced by surfing commitment.
Discussion about managing surfing as a relationship versus an addiction, introducing William Glasser's concept of 'positive addiction'.
Analysis of how surfing can be categorized into seven life areas: spiritual, mental/creative, vocational, financial, family, social, and physical.
Reflection on how the perception of being a 'surfer' has changed culturally, particularly in California versus other regions.
Discussion about evolving from an addictive relationship with surfing to a more mature, balanced approach as one ages.
Outline
Defining a Surfer
The conversation explores various ways to define what makes someone a 'surfer'.
One proposed definition is that surfing is among a person's top 5 relationships or priorities in life.
The speakers debate whether it should be the #1 priority to truly be considered a surfer.
They discuss how surfing impacts major life decisions like where to live or go to school.
They also explore the idea of still identifying as a surfer even when not living near the ocean, as long as surfing remains a priority in one's thoughts and actions.
Relationship with Surfing
The speakers frame surfing as a relationship that needs to be managed and balanced with other life priorities.
They discuss how one's relationship with surfing matures over time, similar to romantic relationships.
Early on, there may be an obsessive, addictive quality, but a healthier long-term relationship involves better management and balance.
They explore how missing good surf conditions can create feelings of remorse or regret, but learning to handle those feelings in a mature way is part of developing a healthy relationship with surfing.
Surfing as an Addiction
The conversation delves into whether surfing can be considered an addiction, and if so, whether it can be a positive addiction.
They discuss William Glasser's concept of 'positive addiction' and the criteria he outlines.
However, one speaker argues that true addiction inherently has negative impacts and cannot be positive.
They debate whether surfing is better framed as a 'positive lifestyle choice' rather than an addiction.
The addictive qualities of surfing are acknowledged, including how it can negatively impact relationships and responsibilities when not managed well.
Identity as a Surfer
The speakers explore the complexities around identifying oneself as a 'surfer', especially in places like California where the term carries certain stereotypes and negative connotations.
They discuss how the perception of surfers has changed over time, from being 'cool' in the early days to later being seen as irresponsible or unintelligent.
This leads to some reluctance to openly identify as a surfer in certain contexts.
However, they also acknowledge the deep love for surfing and ocean culture that exists beneath these identity issues.
Maturing Relationship with Surfing
Both speakers describe how their relationship with surfing has evolved over time.
They discuss moving from an obsessive, addictive approach to a more balanced one that considers other life priorities.
This involves learning to manage guilt around surfing time, being more considerate of family and work responsibilities, and finding ways to pursue surfing without neglecting other important aspects of life.
They explore how this maturation process often coincides with broader life changes and spiritual growth.
Philosophical Perspectives on Surfing
The conversation touches on deeper philosophical questions around why we surf and how it fits into a meaningful life.
One speaker describes a shift towards viewing life as being about service to others rather than personal gratification, and how this perspective change impacted their approach to surfing.
They discuss finding balance between pursuing personal passions like surfing and fulfilling responsibilities to others.
The speakers explore how a more mature relationship with surfing can lead to greater overall life satisfaction and reduced guilt or conflict around surf time.
Transcription
Scott Bass
Because deep down in Michael's soul and in Scott's soul, we absolutely love the whole lifestyle of being on the beach, riding waves, the sun, the warmth, the cold, the wind, the smells, the wax, the sand, the birds, the sea life, the freedom, the adventure, the spirituality. All of it, the physicality. We love it. It's deep down in our deepest core. Relationship to surfing is maturing. I guess I'm maturing in regards to my surfing. I used to be addicted to surfing and it caused problems. I'm a spiritual being living a physical existence rather than how much personal instant gratification can I get right now. It.
Michael Frampton
Was the voice of Scott Bass who is a returning guest in today's episode. We follow on from Scott and I's previous conversation about a month ago where we started talking about one's relationship to surfing. So Scott and I delve into that quite deeply today. Before that, just a little bit of housekeeping. I just spent the weekend with Rob Case from Surf Paddling Technique. Such a good reminder on how important paddling is and how much room there is for improvement. So I just urge you guys to jump on board to his level ones. It's at surfingpaddling.com. Thanks, Rob. Matt Greggs is holding a weekend retreat on the 9th, 10th and 11th of November. Three days of mind, body and performance with Matt Greggs in the Sydney, Australia area. I get a lot of questions about surf coaches, recommendations for good ones, etc. I'll put a page on my website as a surf coach directory. So if you're listening and you're a surf coach, reach out. If you're a client of a good surf coach, reach out mike@surfmastery.com. I'm living and working here in Malibu and hoping to surf some big waves this coming winter. So if you're in the LA area and you're planning on driving north to chase a swell, let me know. I just don't know anyone or where to go. So please send in some thoughtful emails because I'd like to explore this concept more with other guests and I would appreciate some listener input on this. Let's try and explore it together in depth. For now, let's have a listen to Scott Nye scratching the surface. I got an idea I want to discuss with you. It's off the back of what you and David have been talking about as well and what we discussed last time, which is that whole relationship to surfing. Surf mastery is not just mastery over a craft, but mastery over your relationship with surfing. I think I mentioned to you on the phone last week, I got this idea that life is about juggling and prioritizing multiple relationships. We could define a relationship first. I've got it written here. The way in which two or more concepts, objects or people are connected or the state of being connected. So obviously surfing can easily be defined as a relationship. It's kind of a three way. It's got you, your equipment and of course the ocean. To piggyback off what you and David questioned, how do you define yourself as a surfer or how do we define a surfer?
Scott Bass
Or do you want to define yourself as a surfer?
Michael Frampton
Let me weigh in on that and it leads to what I want to talk about. I think it's defined as if your relationship to surfing is in your top five relationships. Is that a question? No, that's how I'm going to define whether you're a surfer or not.
Scott Bass
That's interesting. Okay, yeah. Why five?
Michael Frampton
Could be three maybe, five. We can break it down further.
Scott Bass
I don't know. Maybe it should be one. If it's one, then you are. If it's not one, then you aren't. I don't know, I'm just riffing with you.
Michael Frampton
How much time do you spend surfing?
Scott Bass
Let me ask you this. If you met a woman and she's like, I love you and you love me, let's get married but we have to live in Idaho. Would you marry that woman? Because knowing you wouldn't be able to surf anymore. And the answer is hell no. Therefore surfing is more important than the relationship with the one that you love. And where do you go to school? Well, most surfers I know didn't go to Indiana University. I mean, Surfer Magazine puts out a list of great colleges to go to if you're a surfer.
Michael Frampton
And that's exactly what I'm saying. If it's in your top five of relationships, you're going to have to manage, juggle and prioritize your relationships. But surfing is one of them and it's really important. And if, for example, this woman who lives in Idaho, if she can't understand that, then she might not be the right one for you.
Scott Bass
Way to rationalize the hell out of that relationship. Sorry, honey. You're actually on to something. That's true. If she doesn't know you well enough to know that you can't leave the coastline, then she's not the right one for you. But that to me means that surfing is the number one relationship. I think. I mean, if she understands that you need to be by the ocean, but she got this opportunity, great opportunity, whatever it is, maybe it's an academic, she's going to do some intern or whatever, some incredible business or educational opportunity.
Michael Frampton
I don't know. Number one, I'm not sure about number one. What.
Scott Bass
And she's like, honey, we got to.
Michael Frampton
Go. I mean, of course it's manageable, right? No, it's not. Well, it would be. For example, if you were financially secure and you could travel, you could spend a week in Cabo every month, for example, then living inland. I mean.
Scott Bass
You're making some assumptions. I guess I am too. Like if the woman that you love or the man that you love says, I've got this incredible opportunity. And you realize as a partner in this relationship that this is an incredible opportunity, a once in a lifetime thing, you're going to get to study under Baron Von whoever. Will you go with her to that place or him to that place so that you can, so that she will benefit? Will you be selfless enough to do this?
Michael Frampton
I can relate to that question quite well actually. And because I was about 11, 12 years ago that my wife and I left. We weren't married at the time. We just recently met and we left New Zealand, a nice coastal area of New Zealand to live in London. And I spent four years in London where I surfed maybe three weeks out of the year. So it was just trips to Portugal and the odd trip to the coast out there. But at the time I still considered myself a surfer because surfing still encompassed a lot of my thoughts. I still thought about surfing. When I went to the gym to keep fit and active, I was doing it to keep fit for surfing. I was swimming every week because I was a surfer. I was still reading in the surfing media, planning trips. So I did sacrifice some financial and career and relationship gains for living in London. But I always, you know, there was surf trips were planned so that my time working was kind of managed and justified. So.
Scott Bass
You're suggesting that you can still, that it's one of the top five relationships, even if you're not near the coast, if you're constantly sort of just focused on it or maybe even worse than focused, like you're just obsessed. Yes. That's part of it. So the obsession of the act or the obsession with the identity as a surfer is sort of where you're, maybe that makes you a surfer then.
Michael Frampton
I don't know if identity is a good word.
Scott Bass
I guess. I don't like that one either.
Michael Frampton
Well, I got an example here. That's.
Scott Bass
Where we're starting from. We're starting, if we went backwards, aren't we starting from how do you identify? -
Michael Frampton
Well, here's another spin on it. It means that if you feel a very strong urge to drop everything else to surf a swell.
Scott Bass
David, where are you?
Michael Frampton
Well, like whether or not you can manage that urge is another thing. Right. And that's actually what I want to talk about more. But like if you're someone who surfs and the swell's pumping and you decide to go, you have free time and you decide to go mountain biking with your friends instead, probably your relationship with that friend and mountain biking is stronger than surfing and it's probably not in your top five. So you may surf on a weekly basis, but you're not necessarily a surfer because you're not prioritizing that relationship with the ocean when the ocean is calling.
Scott Bass
I would agree with that. That's sort of where David and I got on this, down this rabbit hole was that he was leaving waves as good as they're ever going to get at a certain spot.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, but he felt that, I'm sure he felt the urge to stay, but he's...
Scott Bass
I don't think he did. I think he was perfectly fine with not, but I mean, I can't speak for him, but I have talked with him at length, as you know. And I think he was just like, you know what, I'm good. I'm going to get some waves up there and I've got these other things I got to do. - A listener sent me, I don't know if your listeners know what we're talking about, which is I'm concerned that we're not in context with them that can, you know, like they've, they might not know what David and I were speaking of, but... I got a listener email and here it is. And it has to do with David leaving really good waves and not even caring about it. And the question is he a surfer? Can you, is that what surfers do? I mean, how can you leave really good waves and not care about it? And this is what this listener wrote. He goes, the point for me is that you guys, Scott and David didn't bring up is David's indignation about just driving away. David was like, yeah, the waves were pumping and I drove home. So what? As a grown man with a career and a family, I've missed a ton of epic swells, but there's been an underlying pain inside that eats away at me when I miss those days. And make sure to take every chance I get to take advantage when the opportunity presents itself to maximize my time in the water. If obligations got in the way of David surfing great waves in Baja, at least have some remorse and not be indignant about it. A couple of years ago, I drove away from an insane day up the coast with my family in my car and I had no choice to surf. I couldn't do it. It ate away at me for a year knowing I would be going back soon. I ordered the best board for that day and came back a year later and it was flat. But the year after the waves were epic and I got to surf that board in those perfect waves. I didn't drive away going, well. I drove away and it killed me from the deepest, darkest depths of my being and kept me awake at night for months. That's the difference between a surfer and a part time water slapper, which is apparently what he's calling David.
Michael Frampton
I can certainly identify with that for sure. I think most surfers will. But there's another layer that goes to that. It's kind of a little bit of an immature attitude to let... Like if you miss a swell, as described, and you let that dwell and you kind of remorse and regret, that's living in the past.
Scott Bass
Yeah, it's a resentment.
Michael Frampton
It's okay to feel that feeling because surfing is your chosen craft, etc. But to let it take up time and space in your mind like that comes down to just managing your relationship with surfing. It's one thing to identify how strong your relationship with surfing is, whether you're a surfer or a wave rider or a part time surfer.
Scott Bass
Part time surfer? Is this a new classification you've come up with?
Michael Frampton
Well, that's the surfer that would... If it's pumping but his friends are going mountain biking, he's like, he's going to go mountain biking. So he's a part time surfer maybe. Surfing is one of his hobbies, per se. He owns a soft top, goes out every now and then.
Scott Bass
My God. Yeah. Part time surfer. Okay, we'll try to come up with a better phrase. It's confusing.
Michael Frampton
I.
Scott Bass
Think hobbyist is actually good. He's a hobbyist surfer. It's one of his hobbies, but it's not ingrained in his life decisions. He would be in Idaho. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So I get what the person in that email is kind of saying. And it sounds like he's trying to say, well, because David didn't have this remorse, he's not a surfer. But maybe David just deals with that remorse in a far better way.
Scott Bass
I don't think David was remorseful. I think that David's in a place in his life where he's like, I'm good. I'll go up to Orange County and I'll surf Huntington Pier tomorrow and it will satiate me. No, it's liberating. Yeah, it is. I agree. On one side of it, I'm like, good for you, dude. I wish I could do that. Or maybe I can do that. Or maybe I'm moving towards that as I get older. I.
Michael Frampton
Think we all need to. And it was highlighted by another email that David read out to you on your last show, which is the grommy who had the, you should have been here an hour ago. The tide was better. What are you guys doing? Blah. And then that same person met the father and had the same attitude from the father, realizing where that attitude came from. And I think to have a 40 or 50 year old man with that attitude is just... That's wrong, first of all. Just being a surfer in the community. But to teach it to your kid is like...
Scott Bass
That was almost a totally different thing, though. That was almost like... That was ego. That was like, son, this is the way you behave. You know, that was really about... I think that was an ego play and I'm not sure I can describe it super good here. Anyway, that was a good email and it was horrible the way the guy behaved and the way his son behaved. And it was really a, look at me, we're better than you. That's what that was about. It wasn't really about the waves. It was almost like, I've got more candy in my Halloween basket than you got. You should have been here an hour ago.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, but it speaks to the surfers of the worst. For sure. Because surfing is bringing that out in him and that's the state of his relationship to surfing. But.
Scott Bass
He's probably like that with everything. He's probably like that with his Halloween candy and he's probably like that. He's just an insecure man that needs to manifest itself by him going, look at me.
Michael Frampton
Agreed. And that's like, if we use the analogy of a romantic relationship, if you were to hold that same attitude that you might have had in your 20s, right? You meet someone, you're completely obsessed, you think about them all the time. My God, she didn't text me back, blah. You might even be quite obsessive and untruthful in that relationship just to get what you want. And when you're not with that person, you might be thinking about them too much. In a sense, you have an immature relationship with that person. Now, if you were to continue to approach romantic relationships in that manner as you get older, you're probably going to find you're not going to have any long-term lasting relationships. So by default and by out of necessity, we just learn to manage these relationships better and we mature and we become more open with others and accepting of others. And we find that when we're with them. And when we're not with them, we're not obsessed by them. We certainly make time for them. We prioritize that relationship. We learn to manage that relationship a lot better. Why can't we do that with surfing?
Scott Bass
Well, let me ask you this. So you have this wonderful girlfriend that you just talked about. And let's say you're with your bros. She's not around. You don't know that she's around. And all of a sudden, you find out that she's going to be there within three or four hours. And she's going to be more gorgeous than ever. She's going to be made up and she's just there just for you to be at your beck and call and to basically do anything you want. Would you drive away? Because that's what David did. He drove away from the girl. I mean, if you're going to use, if we're using this analogy, right, that surfing is like a relationship and the waves came and he knew the waves were coming. He knew that his girlfriend was going to show up and he just drove away. He went, I guess I'll meet her tomorrow up in Orange County. The girl would be bummed. But maybe we can't personify the surf.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that gets into personifying the ocean. You're right. But it does hit on our ability to manage and prioritize because we certainly can spend too much time with that person and it will affect the relationship with your family and your friends and of course, the ocean.
Scott Bass
Which is a whole nother, you know, it's another interesting thing. Like I've, I, when somebody goes, Hey, let's go surfing together sometime. I just inwardly, I just cringe. I just like, no, you know what? I don't have time for you. This isn't about you and me going surfing. This is about me going surfing. And I'm going to go down wherever I go. And I'm, I don't, I'm not going to call you and go meet me in the parking lot. I'm not going to, and it's very, it sounds very selfish on a surface level. Right. But it kind of speaks to what you're talking about. This is my relationship with surfing and it's not our relationship with surfing. You know, and then my, I've got friends will be like, you never surf with those blah. I'm like, I'm down there every single day. Just drive down there and paddle out. You'll probably see me like, you know, like don't hold it over me like I'm some bad guy or something. I hope I didn't just take your conversation down. No.
Michael Frampton
It's, well, let me explain it to you this way. Maybe this, if we break life down into seven areas, spiritual, mental slash creative, vocational, financial, family, social, and physical. Now for most of us, surfing will fit into three or four of those categories. It might be, you might say it's the spiritual. It's obviously it's a creative out there tenant and mentally it's, it can be challenging at times. It's certainly physical. And then for some surfers it's social as well. A lot of us, it's not, we just want to paddle out, catch a few waves and not even look at anyone else. And I get that.
Scott Bass
For the record, I'm not saying that's what I do.
Michael Frampton
No. Of course. But sometimes we want to do that, right? Yeah, we want Yeah.
Scott Bass
Our time.
Michael Frampton
We paddle down the beach and just catch a few runners quickly. Or sometimes we sit out there and riff. So sometimes it's social, whether it's in the parking lot or in the lineup. But I certainly think it was more sociable when we were younger because we were surfing with friends. Absolutely. Now that we've got family is more important. And for some of us, it's surfing is going to fit into the family category because we go surfing with our kids or partner. For some of us, for some people, not many, you're earning money. So it's vocational and financial as well. Surfing for some people covers all seven areas of parts of their life. Do you know what I mean? It's their job as well as their family, surf, etc. So they're justified in spending more time surfing than us. If we spend too much time surfing, then the other parts of our seven areas of life, especially with other people, they suffer. So it's about managing. Yeah, sense.
Scott Bass
I would agree with that. That makes tons of thing.
Michael Frampton
Managing the relationship and managing these areas of life kind of. And surfing can be described as something else.
Scott Bass
Let's hear it.
Michael Frampton
It can be described as an addiction, I think.
Scott Bass
Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, because an addiction defined here is the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing or activity. And then some of the synonyms that go with that is dependency and habit. So I think surfing definitely fits into this category. Again, it's another way to define a surfer. Do you see, are you addicted? Like, is it something you depend on? And I certainly think that, to digress a little or tangent a little bit, is that you could almost say that your relationship with a romantic partner or a friend is somewhat of a dependency. Especially when you look at the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's like social interaction is just like put someone in solitary confinement, they go crazy. We need other people. It's important to thrive in life.
Scott Bass
We're social animals. Exactly.
Michael Frampton
But then I think it's, I think it's okay to be addicted to surfing. It's okay to have it as your, if you've chosen it as your craft, it's okay to be a little bit dependent on that relationship because it can be a healthy addiction.
Scott Bass
Yeah, that's interesting. I question whether there's such a thing as a healthy addiction, first of all.
Michael Frampton
Why do you question that? Look.
Scott Bass
At you going at the keyboard. Because it sounds like a paradox. Like, is there, can you, like addiction has negative connotations. Is there any positive addiction? Because addiction basically means you are shunning other parts of your life, those parts that you mentioned, whether it's relationships or work or family. You have no problem, or you're actually just blinded to the fact that you're ignoring those or not giving that as much attention as it deserves because you're addicted. Because you're, you know what I mean? Like right now, an addicted surfer could just like, I could just take this thing off and go, dude, I'm out of here and have no pangs of guilt about it because I'm so hyper focused on going surfing because I'm addicted. And it wouldn't be the right thing to do. You know what I mean? It would be the wrong thing to do. I don't think that's a healthy addiction. I don't think there is such a thing as a healthy addiction. I'm not sure.
Michael Frampton
Well, we can agree that surfing is an addiction. Not for everyone. It can be.
Scott Bass
And I think more often than not, it is. And I think there's certain, like levels of that addiction.
Michael Frampton
But I think the negative connotations around addiction is more of a modernized term of the word.
Scott Bass
Give me a positive example.
Michael Frampton
Well, if you look at the etymology of the word addict, it's like devoted or habit, tendency, inclination, sacrifice, devotion. That's sort of the older meaning of the word. I think addiction is often we just think of substance. Right? And that's the thing is when you're addicted to a substance, it's not only when you're on that substance when it's affecting your life, it's when you're off the substance. Right? Same with surfing.
Scott Bass
Dude, you were in England for four years and you were working out so that you could go do this thing. It was kind. Maybe that wasn't addictive behaviors, but I mean...
Michael Frampton
Of... Well, for example, let's look at the extreme. Let's say you're addicted to heroin. When you're not on heroin, you're not going to function normally.
Scott Bass
No, you're generally on it or you're looking for it.
Michael Frampton
Looking... It's going to mess with your hormones, your biochemistry, etc. You're either... Exactly. Right? And when you're a surfer, it can be like that, but it doesn't need to be. We can learn to manage it because it's not a substance that's physically changing our biochemistry. I mean, it is on some level because it's a loved pursuit. But therefore, it has the ability to be what's described as a positive addiction. And in fact, William Glasser wrote a book called Positive Addiction.
Scott Bass
That guy's no good. Just kidding. I'm sure he's a wonderful guy.
Michael Frampton
He provides six criteria that must be fulfilled for a person to have a positive addiction to an activity.
Scott Bass
Okay. I think I'm going to check all these boxes. Wow.
Michael Frampton
You believe that it has some value, physical, mental or spiritual for you. Five. You believe that if you persist at it, you will improve. But this is completely subjective. You need to be the only one who measures the improvement. And, number six, the activity must have the quality that you can do it without criticizing yourself. If you cannot accept yourself during this time, the activity will not be addicting.
Scott Bass
Wow. That's interesting. Isn't it? Okay. So, I guess there's positive addictions according to Mr. Glasser.
Michael Frampton
Well, it's an interesting way to break it down. I think number six is a hard one for my surf to...
Scott Bass
Say six again, please.
Michael Frampton
The activity must have the quality that you can do it without criticizing yourself. If you can't accept yourself during this time, the activity will not be addicting.
Scott Bass
Okay. So, you're basically saying, why would you want to do it if you're giving yourself a hard time about it all the time? Kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Which almost describes a bad surf or a frustrating surf.
Scott Bass
Right.
Michael Frampton
Which I think, as I grow older, I tend to have less and less of those.
Scott Bass
You have less frustrating surfs?
Michael Frampton
Yes. I've become more accepting of all the others.
Scott Bass
You're not old enough.
Michael Frampton
Now? 37.
Scott Bass
No. You're right in the prime, dude. Are you doing airs?
Michael Frampton
What?
Scott Bass
I'm just giving you a hard time. I've never done air in...
Michael Frampton
My life. I don't really have a desire to do them. Surfing's done on the wave, isn't it?
Scott Bass
Exactly. What are your thoughts on positive addiction?
Michael Frampton
Okay.
Scott Bass
I mean, I'm easily swayed. I'm not an expert in the field of psychology or physiology or whatever it takes to be an expert in addiction. But, for me personally, addiction does have a negative connotation.
Michael Frampton
Even after that?
Scott Bass
Well, yeah. Because my thing with that is, I don't know if addiction is the right word. That's just a positive life. I think he has described positive something. I'm not sure what it is, but it's not a positive addiction. Because in my opinion, and that's all this is, an opinion, an addiction causes problems in other parts of your life or for other people. You know?
Michael Frampton
So, I guess positive addiction is just a way to look at things, isn't it?
Scott Bass
Well. What it is, it's not a positive addiction. His definition is more like it's a positive, I don't know, help me out. What is it? It's a positive way of life. It's a positive lifestyle choice. What he's described is a positive lifestyle choice. There's no bad in what he describes. There's nothing negative happens. And with addiction, other people around you are destroyed. Or hurt. In a real deep way. Any other addiction, except for this guy's version. So, I think he's got the wrong word choice. Because an addiction is going to hurt somebody. At least every other addiction has, except for his. You? Because addictions are so self-centered that they inevitably hurt somebody. But if you're doing something for an hour every day, like what he said, that's called going jogging. That's a positive lifestyle choice. Everyone around you benefits from it. You're healthier, you're happier, the friggin' serotonin's flowing. You're going to live longer, you're probably going to be more effective at work and at life, around your relationships at home and family. Exactly, agree, but it's not an addiction.
Michael Frampton
And that's what surfing should be.
Scott Bass
Okay, good way to describe it. It's a positive lifestyle choice. So, I don't agree with...
Michael Frampton
Positive addiction.
Scott Bass
Okay, but that doesn't take away the fact that...
Michael Frampton
I think we always have the urge for surfing to be an addiction. Something that can negatively affect others, right?
Scott Bass
That's a pretty huge blanket generalization. We all have an urge for... Surfers have an urge, say it again?
Michael Frampton
Surfing. Not all of us. Surfers. Like if a swell comes. Right. And your best friend's... Or let's say a friend of your friend's kid's having a birthday party you said you'd go to. You probably wouldn't even think twice about not turning up. Because the waves are pumping. So, that is... No. I'm generalizing, right? Therefore, you going surfing has negatively affected others. So, let's say it's your best friend's kid. Or it's closer to a relationship. It's negatively affecting those people who expected you to be there. So, therefore, it can be a negative addiction. Right?
Scott Bass
Yeah, it can definitely be negative. It can be an addiction. I agree. It just can't be a positive one. There's nothing positive about burning your best bro and his kid on his...
Michael Frampton
Birthday. No, but what I'm saying is the difference between it being... Let's say the difference between being an addiction and a positive lifestyle choice is our ability to manage that relationship with the ocean.
Scott Bass
Yeah, I think it's a positive lifestyle choice. Yeah. And I don't think it's a positive addiction. At least right now. You can change my mind.
Michael Frampton
Is this another way to define it and talk about it?
Scott Bass
It's a positive lifestyle choice.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it is. It can be.
Scott Bass
But I don't think there's such a thing as a positive addiction. It's just a contradiction of terms. It's like jumbo shrimp. Military intelligence.
Michael Frampton
Food for thought.
Scott Bass
Yeah, that's all.
Michael Frampton
It depends on how you identify addiction as well.
Scott Bass
It is. That's all we're doing, Mike.
Michael Frampton
Or how you define it as well.
Scott Bass
Yeah, exactly. I define it as addiction hurts people around you. It's so self-centered and so self-serving and so selfish that you don't care what it does to people around you because you're going after it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and that describes a lot of surfers.
Scott Bass
I agree. But it's not a positive thing. Not at all. Yeah, so I don't agree with positive addiction. I would say that surfers have addictive traits and it's not always a good thing. At least for the people around them.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. I think I asked you this last time, but I'll ask it again. How's your relationship to surfing?
Scott Bass
My relationship to surfing is maturing. I guess I'm maturing in regards to my surfing. I used to be addicted to surfing. And it caused problems with this family and with work. And it still kind of causes some problems. It can cause some problems. I have no problem procrastinating work for a surf. And then that time comes when there's a lot of work built up. And you don't feel good about yourself. You feel like maybe you made the wrong choice. And surfing... My wife will tell you, I've gone on more trips with my friend Pat than I have with my wife because Pat's my surf buddy and we plan these surf trips. And I'll rationalize. I'll give her the old, Honey, that's who you married. I wasn't going to go to Idaho with you. And then she'll be like, Just look at the calendar. And then I'll be like, You wouldn't want to go on a boat to Indow anyway. You'd be miserable. But it's not about that. It's about the amount of time that I'm spending with my wife. And so that's changed. And the good news is that it's changed and it doesn't affect me negatively. I'm able to go, You know what? You're right. And I love spending time with her. And it's fun to go wherever that's not a surf-related trip and do stuff. And in the past, that might not have been the case. It might have been way more about, I think surfers are really paranoid about their time. Their free time. My whole thing was, Okay, look, if I've got to be at work from 9 to 5, all the rest of the time that's cut out around that, the first and foremost thing that time focuses on is, are the waves going to be good? Or can I go surfing? Or am I going to go surfing then? I'm just saying, that time around, that 9 to 5 clock is mine to do whatever I want. And so are weekends. So is my vacation time. And do not mess with it. Super selfish, self-centered. But, I was hyper-focused on doing what I love, which is surfing. I think having kids, I think, realizing how selfish it is, realizing that being on this planet isn't really about me. It's kind of about us. You know, it's probably changed mostly because of just prayer and meditation and trying to, realizing that I'm a spiritual being inside of a personal, inside of a physical body, rather than a physical body. I'm a spiritual being living a physical existence, rather than how much personal instant gratification can I get right now? And I'm going to get as much of it as I can. And as long as I can, you know, because that's what life's all about, being a pig. Personal instant gratification. And so that has, that was a big part of my life for a long time. And in the last, like, maybe 15 years, it's evolved as my kids started to get older. And it's just, it took me a little longer to become, to start to evolve to a higher place, you know. Not higher, like better than, but just higher than that selfish behavior is just that. That's not how my God wants me to live my life. So it gets into some spiritual dogma that I don't want to bore you or listen to.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, but it comes back. You learned to manage your relationship with surfing better.
Scott Bass
I think that, yeah, for sure. For sure, I made choices. But the important thing is that I made the choices and I was okay with it. In the past, if I had to make those choices, I'd be like, damn, I got to go to the birthday party. To waves, it's my only time, even though I have a lot of other time. I could rationalize the crap out of my free time. I think free time is a real, I think for addictive personalities that have sort of glommed on to surfing as their addiction. Free time is like a big deal. Because I've got to go to school and I've got to work. And so I've only got three hours in that. There's three hours of daylight left. And guess what I'm doing? And do not even think about messing with it.
Michael Frampton
If you're juggling a bunch of relationships and you're prioritizing them, then each of those relationships, you can kind of define yourself. For example, your relationship with the ocean. If that's what you think about the most and you spend as much of your free time doing, then I think surfer would be an apt description of your identity. But you can still be a, hear me out, because you can still be a surfer when you're, but you can but at the top of your identity labels might be father and husband. And then surf is third. But when we were younger, surfing with surfer was the top one.
Scott Bass
But agree.
Michael Frampton
Just because surf is not the top one doesn't mean we're not surfers. I agree with that.
Scott Bass
I Absolutely.
Michael Frampton
It just means that we're learning to manage our relationships better. I think just to be better people.
Scott Bass
And the reason that I scrunched my face up is that, and it's different for you probably, but because you're from New Zealand. But here in California, the way pop culture has identified being a surfer, like so Spicoli, taking, smoking weed, and maybe some of them rightly so, by the way. Some of these characterizations or stereotypes have some truth to them. Skipping work, like being irresponsible. All of these things are, that's what it is to be a surfer. Now in New Zealand, it might be riding waves is what it means to be a surfer in the general population's eyes. They're like, what a good bloke, he's a surfer. Sorry for the butchering of the accent. But, you know, whereas here it's like, he's a surfer, you know, which is like count on him not to be at work on time, count on him to be kind of unintelligent, count on him to be a pot smoker, count on him to, you know, just be a ne'er-do-well. And so to identify as that, which is what David and I were getting at, is that people just rather be called a wave rider or just, you know, a lover of the ocean. Like when people today go, you're a surfer, I kind of go, I like to get in the ocean. You know, which is kind of my internal polite way of saying, I don't really like to be characterized as that because of some of the negative connotations that I'm putting on it. I'm not saying that the...
Michael Frampton
No, I agree with you.
Scott Bass
I'm not saying that the population is, but my perception is that the population is.
Michael Frampton
And I think you're right, but I think that perception is for the general public and the surfer that doesn't manage their surfing relationship well. If you've got a friend, for example, if you have a friend who you respect them as a surfer and as a human and they manage their relationship to surfing well, if they say you're not a surfer, you're going to kind of feel the opposite, like, hold.
Scott Bass
On. No, I don't. I personally don't care because I know that's not the case. My ego will go, you know, okay. If you say so, I don't really care what you think, quite frankly. You know what I mean? I would actually say thank you. You're right. I'm a wave rider. I enjoy the ocean. I was out there this morning and I'm going to be out there tomorrow morning and you can think what you want.
Michael Frampton
But what were you out there doing?
Scott Bass
Riding waves.
Michael Frampton
Okay. That's semantics. It. Like part of you identifies as a surfer, right?
Scott Bass
Is. I'm just toying around.
Michael Frampton
For.
Scott Bass
Sure. I mean, even if I couldn't relinquish that, even if I wanted to. I mean, I've been in the surf industry for 20-something years, 30-something years, since 80, 40 years. So, and of course, I'm in it now and that's my business. It's the surf industry, you know? But on an intellectual level, I like to delve into what we're talking about. This is a conversation that you're not going to have with, you know, down in the parking lot. I mean, you might. But my point is that, I guess the question, it's like, am I embarrassed? You know? And I think it depends on the context. And it depends on who's asking the question. It does. Yeah. I mean, look at it this way. If you were doing a job interview and they went, I see here you're a surfer. You'd be like, fuck. They must have looked at my Facebook page. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or if you were going to meet your fiancée's father. And he's like, So? I see you spend a lot of time at the beach. You'd be like, shoot. You know what I mean? Whereas if he went, I see here you went to Harvard in New Zealand. You know, you'd be like, Yeah, let me tell you about it. You know what I mean? And so it all depends on context. Because deep down in Michael's soul and in Scott's soul, we absolutely love the whole lifestyle of being on the beach, riding waves, the sun, the warmth, the cold, the wind, the smells, the wax, the sand, the birds, the sea life, the freedom, the adventure, the spirituality. All of it, the physicality. We love it. It's deep down in our deepest core. And we give thanks for it. And we're blessed to be able to do it. I mean, there's people marching up from Honduras right now that are trying to find out what to eat next. And so all of those things, I absolutely wave the flag. But I don't necessarily wave the Spicoli flag. So when somebody says, So, being a surfer is in your top five, or it's the third thing that's most important to you when you self-identify. I kind of cringe. I wish we could recategorize those things I just mentioned. But when somebody says that to you, what is that called? And sadly, I guess it's called a surfer. Maybe it's not sad, but it depends on the context of when somebody's identifying you as a surfer.
Michael Frampton
But it sounds like it's only like that because of how surfing is perceived in modern culture.
Scott Bass
Exactly. And it might be different. In fact, I think it's different in Europe. I think in Europe, I don't think it's quite as negative, a negative connotation, I think, but I don't know.
Michael Frampton
Has surfing lost its cool?
Scott Bass
Surfing lost its cool in 1957, I think it was, when Gidget the movie came out. That's right there. That's the end of cool. It was really cool before anyone knew about it. In like 1943, when guys were coming back from World War II and riding up and down this coast with no one around. And when they saw another guy with a surfboard, they went, hey, come over here, the waves are good. Surfing lost its cool the very first time somebody said shit, don't let that guy get over here. That's when surfing became uncool. And that happened probably right around 1949 or 52 or something. But for sure, as soon as Gidget came out, surfing was no longer cool. It was the beginning of surfers are the worst. Selfish, self-centered dickheads. And that's not how you and I want to be identified.
Michael Frampton
I agree. To go back to your relationship with surfing, was there a point where the time you were spending surfing started to be a little guilt-ridden?
Scott Bass
That happens now more than it ever has, especially on long surf trips, where you're like man, this is day 10, I haven't even called my wife. It's not cool. But in the past, it wasn't like that. There's just been a real revelation in the past 15 years. When I'm about your age, like you're 37, right when I was about 35, and maybe more like 40, or maybe 45, my wife might even tell you just a couple years ago. And frankly, it's owed to a couple of things. One is just getting older. Like I can only surf so much now. Back in the day, I was good for two or three sessions a day. And two is this spiritual quest that I think we're all on, whether we realize it or not. To understand why we're here. Why we're on this planet. And I think once of us start to identify with that question, and we start to explore it, and through the exploring of that, we find that it's not really about us, it's about others. What's amazing, it's a paradox, because what happens, at least with me, is that you find out, you know what? It's really about being of service to others. Being of service to your fellow man. That's why we're here. And my God, I actually get joy from this. The idea of giving a wave to somebody is actually making me feel pretty good. That's really weird. Or being of service, however it is, like doing the dishes for my wife, or you washing your wife's car without her knowing. And once you start to go down this path of being of service to your fellow man, an unselfish act, what I've noticed is that all this stuff that I was really worried about losing, holding on to it, squeezing it, don't take my free time, mother fucker. Once I let go of that, it all came back. I've got as much free time as I've ever wanted, and I don't even need to use it. I hate to sound too...
Michael Frampton
No...
Scott Bass
...too, you know, like Jimmy Swagger, one of these televangelists.
Michael Frampton
You're on the money. You're on the money, but let me bring it back.
Scott Bass
Yes, please. I so apologize to your listeners.
Michael Frampton
This is good because, I mean, that's... You have to be philosophical. Otherwise, you can't manage relationships. If there's no bigger reason to manage a relationship, you're not going to. But it's interesting to hear you say that you're feeling more guilt for surfing. Whereas I'm at a place at the moment where I'm learning to feel less. Because in the past, it's been like, if I'm not surfing, I feel like all these unwritten waves, like it's consuming my mind. And then when I do go surfing, I'm feeling shit, I've got all these other things to do. So it's like the opposite things were consuming mine. But if I learn to manage my relationship with surfing and be honest and open to it with my other relationships, then I can go surfing without guilt. And then I can spend time with my other relationships without thinking about surfing.
Scott Bass
Well, that's well put. And I'll just recharacterize. I'm not guilty when I go surfing, but there's times when, if I'm on a surf trip, where it's like, okay, you know what? Nine days of this is kind of like not fair to my wife or to my work or to whatever. You know, like that's where there's some guilt. Usually when it's like a long surf trip. My wife will tell you, I don't have any guilt about going surfing today or right now. You know, unless there's a prior engagement that we have that I'd be stepping on, which would be wrong.
Michael Frampton
Okay. So you have managed, you have learned to manage.
Scott Bass
For sure.
Michael Frampton
For sure. But what my original question was back then was there a time in your life where that guilt started to creep in more? And is that what sort of taught you to have a better relationship with surfing?
Scott Bass
I'm sure there was, you know, I'm sure there was. You know, it's weird because I'm in sort of a unique position where I can manage my time. I have more, my schedule's not as set in stone as some people's are. So managing this addiction has been easier for me than for some, I would think. It's funny. I think when you do have a real set schedule, like you have to be at work or you have to do this, you have to do that. And you only have this little bit of free time on the outskirts of that main thrust of your life, which would be work or school or whatever. There's absolutely no guilt about using that time to go surfing. Because it's like, dude, I just did eight hours, you know, whatever it is I do. And now, guess what? It's time for some Scott time. It's time for some Mike time. You know, there's definitely no guilt. So it's funny because when you do have a lot of, when you're self-employed and you can kind of manage your time, it's easier to get guilty about it because you're like shit, I've taken this four hour session that's two hours too long. It should have been a two hour session, you know?
36 The Surfers Relationship to Surfing w Scott Bass
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