90 Connor Beaton - Man Talk
Are you a man striving to be better — but unsure what real strength, fatherhood, or masculinity looks like in today’s world?
In this powerful conversation, Connor Beaton — founder of Mantalks, author, and global leader in men’s work — breaks down the modern crisis of masculinity. From the absence of male role models to the dangers of suppressing emotion, this episode uncovers how men can reclaim power through presence, honesty, and breath.
Learn why icons like Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson resonate — and where they fall short
Discover the #1 thing fathers miss that damages sons (and how to get it right)
Get actionable breathing tools to regulate stress and show up fully in your relationships
Tap into this eye-opening episode to learn how to embody a version of masculinity that’s both strong and deeply relational.
Connor's website: https://mantalks.com/
Links to the ep - Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000625205044
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/51EjtpMxWB6rPCdliV2f0A?si=11a31b9d0d6a4da5
Music - Run River by Jon Swift
Key Points
The absence of mature masculinity in men's lives leads them to seek icons to aspire to, often resulting in unrealistic expectations and judgments.
The importance of healthy relationships and mental health, and how they contribute to a fulfilling life and activities like surfing, is emphasized as a recurring theme.
Connor Beaton discusses the importance of having icons and role models in photography, specifically mentioning Greg Williams and his photography style.
The discussion revolves around the concept of healthy masculinity and the importance of men being able to admit their flaws and mistakes.
The conversation highlights the need for male role models and icons, especially in the absence of mature masculinity in one's life, and the impact of this absence on young boys.
The popularity of figures like Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson among young men is discussed, attributing it to the lack of healthy male role models and the appeal of their messages.
The challenges faced by women in modern culture, the pressure to embody certain ideals, and the lack of public advocacy for a more balanced version of femininity are discussed.
The importance of the mother-child relationship in the first three years of a child's life is emphasized, highlighting the developmental and psychological impact it has on the child.
Connor Beaton shares his approach to fatherhood, emphasizing the importance of presence and being a role model for his son.
The practice of breathwork is discussed as a method to regulate the nervous system and enhance presence, particularly in parenting.
Outline
Importance of Mature Masculinity
Connor discusses the need for mature masculinity and male role models in one's life, especially for those who grew up without a father figure or with emotionally absent fathers.
The absence of mature male role models can lead individuals to look up to icons that may not represent healthy masculinity.
Connor emphasizes the importance of having male role models who can model vulnerability, admit flaws, and show growth after mistakes.
Icons of Masculinity
Connor mentions Arnold Schwarzenegger as an icon who represents certain aspects of masculinity, highlighting his journey from a humble background to success in bodybuilding, real estate, and Hollywood.
Robert Bly, an author and part of the mythopoetic men's movement, is cited as an example of a figure who embodies a different quality of masculinity through introspection and self-reflection.
Chris Hemsworth is discussed as an icon who, despite his heroic on-screen persona, has shown vulnerability in discussing his genetic predisposition to Alzheimer's and dementia.
The Role of Icons in Modern Culture
Connor and Michael discuss the popularity of figures like Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson, attributing their prominence to the absence of healthy male role models in modern culture.
Andrew Tate's confident and arrogant persona, along with his lifestyle, appeals to young men who feel lost or disconnected from their masculine nature.
Jordan Peterson is seen as a figure who offers simple, yet impactful advice, such as cleaning one's room, which resonates with many who may not have received such guidance in their lives.
Feminine Role Models and Modern Femininity
Connor acknowledges the challenges women face in modern culture, where they are often expected to be hyper-achieved, assertive, and independent.
He mentions Michaela Bohm as a woman doing interesting work on masculine and feminine energies, using the framework of 'go and flow' instead of traditional masculine and feminine labels.
Connor expresses a desire for more women to advocate for what they truly desire, rather than conforming to societal expectations, and highlights the importance of conversations around motherhood and career balance.
The Importance of Presence in Fatherhood
Connor emphasizes the significance of presence in fatherhood, drawing from his experience working with men who felt the absence of their fathers.
He advocates for fathers to be deeply present with their children, focusing on them without distractions, and to influence their children in a positive way.
Connor suggests that being a respected and self-respecting father is crucial, as it models valuable behavior for children.
Breathwork for Presence and Stress Management
Connor discusses the role of breathwork in managing stress and enhancing presence, explaining the interplay between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems.
He recommends simple breathing exercises, such as inhaling through the nose for a count of four, holding for two, exhaling through the mouth for a count of seven, holding for two, and repeating, to help regulate the breath and reduce stress.
Connor asserts that being tuned into one's breath can significantly improve the ability to be present for loved ones.
Transcription
Connor Beaton
You as a man will always need an icon to look up to when there's been a vacancy of mature masculinity and mature men in your life. All of us as men aspire to some kind of ideal that is larger than where we currently are. The challenge is that a lot of us as men have grown up with an absence of mature masculinity around us.
Michael Frampton
The better your relationships are, the better your life is. The better your life is, the better your surfing will be. The more you enjoy your surfing, the better your relationships will get. It's a beautiful circle. And it's been a running theme in this podcast a lot recently—mental health, relationships. And we stick with that theme in this episode via an interview with Connor Beaton. Connor is the founder of Mantalks.com, and Mantalks.com features a long-running podcast of the same name. Connor is an author and he works with men one-on-one and in groups. Connor's podcast has been paramount in my journey of self-discovery and relationship training. You can check out more from Connor at Mantalks.com, and of course, the Mantalks podcast is on all platforms. Please enjoy my conversation with Connor Beaton. Those photos in the background, do they have meaning to you?
Connor Beaton
They're all photos that I've taken. Yeah, it's like New York and there's a bunch of photos of my son and family and, yeah, I've been shooting for a little over a decade. Yeah, I finally, right when the pandemic was starting, I bought my dream camera—well, one of my dream cameras, but the one that I could afford. And, yeah. And so I took some, I've taken some great photos with it. And so I decided to print them off and put them up in my office.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Can I ask what the dream camera is?
Connor Beaton
It's a Leica Q2.
Michael Frampton
It's digital?
Connor Beaton
It is a 42-megapixel full-frame mirrorless digital, yeah. Wow. Yeah, so it's a good amount of future tech baked into it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, is that basically the large format of digital camera?
Connor Beaton
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty solid. Anyway, are you a photography guy?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I grew up doing a lot of photography. I actually studied it for a year when I left school. I quickly realized the only way to make money was to do weddings and advertising. So I had this fantasy that you could become an artist, some sort of Ansel Adams, just by doing a year at school.
Connor Beaton
All right. I took photos during my bachelor's degree of other singers and made some side pocket change by doing like headshots and portraits and stuff like that and did a couple of weddings. And it was like, yeah, I definitely don't want to try and make money off of this. This is not the thing. But I love it. And so there are exceptional photos of my son that he will have and that I will have.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Cool. That's nice. It's good to have at least one creative outlet.
Connor Beaton
That's right. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
In terms of—let's stay on photography. Do you have a photographer that you look to, like an icon of the genre?
Connor Beaton
Yes, I actually have. You can't see it, but right here where I'm pointing, there's actually two prints by a guy named Greg Williams. And Greg shoots with the exact same camera that I have. He shoots with the Leica Q2. Very interesting character. He's done a lot of like Hollywood traditional photography, but he captures... he captures a lot of the celebrities just sort of like in the moment, you know, so he's the guy that’s sort of backstage at award shows, on set. And one of the things that I love that he's done is that he was the primary photographer for all of the Daniel Craig James Bond movies. And he shot a whole series with all of these movies with the same camera that I have—with the Leica Q2. And then he put a bunch of them out on print that you can go and purchase. And so some of them are massive, and they are, you know, an ungodly amount of money. But they're all in black and white. He shoots pretty much everything in black and white. And so I bought a couple of his prints, smaller size. I think they're like 11 by 18 or something like that. I'd have to actually look. And one of them is Daniel Craig's—you know, black and white, hanging out of the Aston Martin. And then the other one is the Aston Martin, like doing donuts in this parking lot from the last Bond film. And they're just phenomenal photos. And so I love his work. I like this notion of catching the story of the moment, you know, and just this sort of very real, authentic way. And so I always try and follow suit in that, you know, whenever I'm taking photos of my son, or out in nature, or walking through the streets of New York, or, you know, wherever we happen to be—we just went to Italy on vacation—I will try and capture what I think is like the essence of the moment of a person or the landscape in just sort of very real and authentic way. And so he's definitely been a huge inspiration. I really love his work.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And on the topic of inspiring figures and icons, that's obviously a great one for photography. But let me ask you just in general terms—you obviously have become an expert in the sort of men's work space, and the topic of masculinity is something that comes up a lot. Are there any icons that come to mind in terms of masculinity?
Connor Beaton
It's an interesting question. I think that there's some men who are more mainstream that represent aspects of it that, you know, we've looked up to for a long time. I haven't seen it yet, but Arnold Schwarzenegger has a new documentary. And it sort of portrays his journey as a man, from my understanding. And I think for a lot of guys, you know, he represented elements of masculinity, right? Sort of being this very in-shape, this, you know, pinnacle of physique, but this action, you know, action movie hero. But I think the real man behind the camera with Arnold is quite fascinating. You know, when you actually start to hear about his story—coming from absolutely nothing, you know, dirt poor in Austria. You know, his family didn't have any running water. They didn't have a bathroom in the house. They'd have to go to an outhouse, you know, outside on their property. To him coming to America and making his first million off of real estate before he was even successful in bodybuilding, and movies, and all these other things. So, you know, I think in America, somebody like him has maybe portrayed masculinity. I think there's this sort of more mythical versions of it. Somebody like Robert Bly, who is an author—he was part of what's called the mythopoetic men's movement back in like the 80s—and he wrote a book called Iron John, and that has become quite popular. So I think, you know, characters like him, for guys that kind of get into introspection and self-reflection, I think that men like him embody some kind of different quality of masculinity that is maybe vacant within our cultures and communities today. You know, because what's often sold to us in terms of figures of masculinity that we look up to as role models are the Hollywood style. You know, James Bond style—the Daniel Craigs, the Arnold Schwarzeneggers, the... you know, whoever it is in Hollywood. Or if you follow sports, right? It's going to be athletes. But I think for me, it's really the men who maybe rise to those positions—whether it's in politics, or athletics, or art, or entrepreneurship—who are able to strip down their own front-facing facades. Because we can get very caught in the glamorized version of who that individual is. And so I think the men who really create good role modeling are the men who are able to admit character flaws, and faults, and challenges, and, you know, talk about their own hardship, their own mistakes in sort of a very real way. So I mean, I don't necessarily know if you're asking for me to list off men that I think represent that right now. I think Robert Bly was a good example. It's interesting to watch certain athletes and musicians go through a journey of sort of derobing or unmasking who they actually are. I think that that's a very fascinating journey that we as men can observe and learn from. You know, I look at—maybe the last thing I'll say is—I look at somebody like Chris Hemsworth, you know, who has played Thor in, you know, all the Marvel movies and whatnot, and he's sort of this character that a lot of women are drawn to and, you know, want. But he sort of embodies this very archetypal heroic nature within Thor, right, that I think a lot of men resonate with. But then he's, you know, the human version of him has gone through a very interesting journey. He did this series on National Geographic that—I can't remember what it was called—but he sort of goes through all these different adventures. One of them is climbing a rope, you know, up to this hundred-foot rope, up to this like hanging platform. That's ice, like cold immersion. He finds out that he has a pretty significant genetic predisposition to Alzheimer's and dementia that like radically changes the course of his life. I think he's actually taken some time from acting and has been very open about his fears around that. And so I talk about the realities of their life in a very real way—their addictions, their flaws. I think those are the type of men that really embody healthy masculinity to me because there is this tendency, I think, within our culture to show a very—whether it's Western culture or Eastern culture—to show a very one-dimensional version of masculinity that is more geared towards perfection based on performance. You know, how well you can do things as a man, and how well you can consistently do things as a man will determine your worth. And I think that in the long run is quite unhealthy. And it sort of breeds this culture of us as men feeling like we can't have imperfections. You know, one of the things that I wrote about in my book was this false notion of masculine culture of seeking strength through suppression. You know, a lot of us—I call it the one rule of men, which is similar to Fight Club, right? In Fight Club, you don't talk about Fight Club. That's the first and pretty much only rule. And the first rule of men is: you don't talk about what it's like to be a man who's struggling. You don't talk about what it's like to be a man who's suffering, or going through hardship, or feeling like a failure, feeling like a fraud. You just don't talk about that shit. And so what a lot of us have learned is that we need to find ways—we, a lot of us, have learned this false notion that if we just suppress what we're feeling, what we're experiencing, the truth of our experience, our failures, our perceived flaws—if we just suppress that hard enough, that somehow strength will be built out of that. And it's false. It never comes. That strength never happens. And our strength as men—and this is, I'll side up here—our strength as men in a lot of ways comes from being able to accurately perceive our weaknesses, and then choosing to display them when necessary, when it's safe to do so, around the people who are going to honor that part of us, and then to work on those parts of us. You know, to actually develop that. To develop ourselves. Through our perceived weaknesses, our flaws, our insecurities, our inferiorities. So I think that men in our culture that embody that are good role models.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's a good answer. And I guess maybe you can't even land down one particular man. I mean, you mentioned Arnold. I have actually watched that documentary, and he does do that. He's very vulnerable. Like, the documentary does, you know, talk about his illegitimate son when he was having an affair with one of the staff members of his house. He openly talks about it and admits his mistakes. And it almost doesn't... You can see he's remorseful and emotional about it, but it doesn't put him off doing all these other things that he's doing. And I think that's what I think you were speaking to, is that men aren't—obviously the perfection thing. Sometimes I think maybe we have icons and we can sort of separate them. Like, we might say, let's say we're a football player and we look to Messi to learn from in football and how to hold ourselves on the field. But that doesn't mean that we should look to Messi in terms of how to spend our money or how to act in a restaurant, or... do you know what I mean? And I think that's where often the missteps are. Like, we look at a football player and think, yeah, he should be able to hold himself well. You know, especially an American football player who's essentially had a lot of concussions. They're the last person you should be looking at on how to model a relationship. You know, how to play football—sure. So I think I was wondering whether you think that icons for men are... Maybe the answer is that they shouldn't be limited to one.
Connor Beaton
Well, yes. I think how I would probably get into that is something along the lines of: you as a man will always need an icon to look up to when there's been a vacancy of mature masculinity and mature men in your life. So you have—we have—you know, all of us as men aspire to some kind of ideal that is larger than where we currently are. And the challenge is that a lot of us as men have grown up with an absence of mature masculinity around us. You know, one in four kids in America—one in four—will grow up without a father figure in the household. And that's not accounting for the men that are there but are absent emotionally. They're absent physically. They're absent mentally. You know, they're not taking a role in their children's lives. And statistically speaking, what the data very clearly shows us is that that has some impact on young girls in some ways. But young boys specifically really struggle when they are raised in an environment with an absent father. And so what is a young boy to do when he doesn't have a father in the household? He goes into an education system where, you know, in Western cultures, it's something like 25 to 32%, depending on where you are, of teachers will be male—so predominantly female. So you're not seeing examples or role models of men that you can look up to and respect and idolize. If you don't play sports, you're not going to have coaches in your life that you can look up to. And then you get into a college system, which is becoming more and more dominated by women. And then you're thrust out into the workforce. You know, you're sort of pushed out into society and culture, maybe having never really been around a good, healthy, grounded community, mature male role model that has embodied healthy masculinity for you—that's been able to model what it looks like to be a man who fucks up and can admit it. You know, and can show what he does on the other side of his errors and his mistakes. And so I think what ends up happening is that for a lot of young boys—they need, we need—these icons to look up to that we don't know, because they represent this ideal that we all want to live into. But when we don't have a father figure around, when we don't have a healthy male role model around that we can look up to, that can model what it looks like to be a great man, that can model what it looks like to be even just a man that you respect—never mind great—just a man that you respect. In the absence of that, we need icons. And I think what happens is that for a lot of us as men, we miss out on the... there's a certain quality of like—I almost want to say, you know, nutrition—but there's a certain quality of nutrition, energetic exchange, modeling—and I'll just say nutrition—that we receive from older, mature men. And that modeling shows us what to do with our anger. What to do with our sex drive. What to do with our desire for power. What to do with our aggression and our violence. What to do when we feel lost. So when we don't have that modeling, we look to icons and we put them on such a pedestal that we then cast such a harsh judgment on them because we need them to be everything for us as young men or as older men, because we just haven't had good men around us to actually embody what it looks like to step into a more mature version of ourselves. So... I know that's probably not what you were asking, but hopefully that makes some sense.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I mean, it points to the fact—I mean, look how popular Andrew Tate is. Like, the most popular person, right?
Connor Beaton
Right. I mean, the most Googled man for a period of time. And when you look at his audience base—and I've said this time and time again—you know, about Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson... you know, there's a number of men, and not to put them in the same category because they're not in the same category whatsoever. They're very different beasts. But when you look at the demographic of men following Andrew Tate, it's a lot of very young men. And it's a lot of very young men who don't have father figures, or they have very meek father figures, right? They have very meek men that are in their lives that aren't giving them guidance, that probably didn't get guidance from their own fathers, or they were abused by their fathers. And so they've swung the pendulum in the other direction. And along comes this guy who is very confident, very arrogant. You know, lives this sort of lifestyle that a lot of men's—you know, a lot of our egos—idealize, right? The Bugattis and the women and the, you know, big compounds in Dubai and, you know, Romania or whatever. And so for a lot of young men who feel lost, feel alone, feel disconnected from their own masculine core and masculine nature, that looks... fucking great. You know, like, I get it. I think if I was a 20-year-old man and Andrew Tate was around, I probably would have been following him too, in all honesty. Because when I was 20, I was lost. I didn't have good male role models in my life. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I hated myself, you know? And to have that kind of messaging from a man that is advocating for you to gain confidence and get some self-respect, have some trust in yourself... You know, the interesting thing about him is that he does this thing where he will—he'll make a statement that has both a truth and an inflammatory comment. And... it's very interesting, because it's this wonderfully divisive thing where depending on who you are, you're either going to share the message because you heard the truth in what he was saying about being a young man, about being a man, about how maybe women treat men in our modern culture and society sometimes—or you're going to hear the inflammatory comment. And either way, you're probably going to want to spread his message because you either love or hate him. Yeah. Yeah, I think... figures like him and figures like Jordan Peterson—I've said for years—Jordan Peterson is just the father that every young man was looking for and didn't get. You know, just simple shit. Clean up your room. Make some order out of the chaos in your life. It's like—that sounds brutally simplistic, but it may have been a message that tens of millions of men never heard. Never got. Or the way that they received it was through abuse and aggression and violence, through threats and passive aggressiveness. And so to hear it from somebody who is educated and, you know, articulate, sometimes can be very enticing. So I think that those types of characters rise into prominence within our culture, again, because of exactly what you were saying before—very huge absence of healthy male role models within our culture. And what they've been replaced with are icons. So... yeah.
Michael Frampton
Thank you. So... obviously, Jordan Peterson and, let's say, the positive aspects of Andrew Tate's messages are speaking to the core masculine of a lot of young men, and that's... a lot of that stuff, they actually need to hear it. What's... and I think... I don't know if you would agree, but most young women would like a man who sort of fits into that definition of masculinity. Aside from Jedidiah Beeler, is there anyone that's speaking to that core feminine that is going to balance with this core masculine that is being spoken to by Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson, and someone more holistic like yourself? Who's the female role model that's going to create these feminine women that these men need—essentially can inspire them to be better?
Connor Beaton
I'm not sure. I don't know entirely. You know, I think... there are—just as it's challenging and a very interesting time to be a man within our culture—I think it's challenging and very interesting to be a woman in our culture right now, because you are sold messages of... in some ways, the ideal for a woman in today's culture and society is to become the man that you ultimately would like to be with. You know, to be the hyper-achieved, hyper-accomplished, very assertive, very dominant, very direct, you know, independent woman that doesn't need anything from anybody. And to go against that, or to want anything different from that, is somehow to be in betrayal of womankind within our modern culture. And I don't hear a lot of women saying anything about it in the public sphere. I hear a lot of women talking about it behind closed doors. I know a tremendous amount of women who are very successful, who are in the public sphere, who have done well for themselves, who talk about this all the time—but they don't talk about it in public. And I think part of that is because we've created this culture that, in some ways, villainizes large parts of men and tells men it's not okay for you to do that or be that way, while advocating for women to be that way. And so there's kind of this paradox that has emerged where, you know, both men and women are trying to find themselves in the rebalancing of our culture. You know, you have 42% of American households where women are the primary breadwinner, and that's on the rise, and that will only continue—you know, that will continue to be on the rise. Now, is that a bad thing on its face? No, of course not. Should women be able to go out and earn money and, you know, all those types of things? Of course. I'm not saying that they shouldn't. I'm simply saying that has changed the dynamics between men and women relationally in such a significant way, but we haven't talked about those social dynamics at all. Because, you know, men were told that they needed to be the primary breadwinners. Men were told for a long time that they need to do those things and that that's where they got their worth and their value. And now, in a lot of ways, women are being told that. Right? You should be completely independent. You should not, you know, need a man whatsoever. You should be the one that's making all the money and taking responsibility for the household and all these types of things. And so, it's a very interesting time for both men and women. I don't hear a lot of women advocating for, you know, a very healthy version of femininity and being a woman in our modern culture. I think that there are some women who naturally live it and embody it. But they don't speak out directly into the culture about it, which is interesting. And I don't really know why. I think there's probably consequences for doing that—maybe that plays into it.
Michael Frampton
There's monetary gain. There's a lot of monetary gain. I mean, if you could take one of these feminine figures that has the—I was going to say balls—but that has the gumption to go out there and voice this opinion, and to essentially have a debate with Andrew Tate and say, “Andrew, I love what you're saying about these men. But Andrew, you have to realize that you have a very heavily Eastern, you know, background and way of thinking. And that's not how women like to be talked about in the Western world.” Like, for example, that's all, you know, that's essentially what Andrew Tate's got—a lot of good stuff, but he's like a bit too much. There's a bit too much East in the way you're talking about women sometimes. But the thing is, these young men, they don't—they can't—if they don't have a woman coming in, like a woman who essentially is why they're doing all of this, coming in and giving some balance, then they're going to run off with this one icon and learn the hard way.
Connor Beaton
I agree entirely. And, you know, I think... one of the things—you're good—I don't want to phrase this like... there's this whole red pill movement. You know, and I think Andrew Tate is very much—has become like the sort of poster child of what a lot of guys online would call the red pill. You know, there's guys like Tate, there's guys like Rollo Tomassi. And these guys have been—you know, some of them have been around for a very long time. And the big challenge and problem with that movement—and again, there's some wonderful... there's some wonderful values in it. There's some really great things that can support a lot of men and have saved a lot of men's lives. And so I don't want to sort of throw the baby out with the bathwater. But one of the big challenges that I see is that it's not very relational. You know, Tate's message at the end of the day is not necessarily relational. It's... “I am superior,” you know, and “You obey whatever I say.” And at the end of the day, that's the frame. And with a lot of these red pill notions, they're not super relational. And so where it starts to break down is: you as a man aren't really in relationship with that woman. You are, quote unquote, holding the frame. You're just acting in a very specific way in order to hold that woman in the relationship in the way that you think it needs to be. And so, you know, my framework is always based on attachment. My wife is a marriage and family therapist, and I've worked with tens of thousands of men for over a decade. And what I have seen time and time again is that when we don't have healthy primary attachments in our childhood, we will continue to replicate that pattern in our adulthood. And so, if you didn't have good primary attachments when you were growing up, or the primary attachment—or your primary caregiver—was somebody who parented through absolute superiority and dominance, you are going to repeat that pattern, or you are going to move in the direction of opposition. So you're going to reject any kind of assertiveness and directness, because you won't want to be like that parent. And so I think that a lot of the challenges that come in our, you know, in some of these notions—especially that surround, you know, guys like Andrew Tate or the red pill stuff—is that they're not relational at all. They're not relational. They are about superiority and holding on to control—not power necessarily, but holding on to control. And it undermines a deeper sense of trust, of security, of safety within a relationship and, in some ways, it's a bit performative. And I'm sure that if certain people on the internet heard what I just said, you know, I'd be called all kinds of names—but that's okay.
Michael Frampton
No, you're 100% right. And that's what I actually like about your podcast and your work is that—I mean, you just interviewed Sterling Cooper. I mean, he's red pill? But you give it like, you're just talking to him about the stuff that's relevant. And then you're interviewing someone else about that—the opposite of that. What is male vulnerability? And how does it work in a relationship with an intelligent woman? You're very holistic with this stuff. And that's what I really like about it. And that's part of the reason why I asked was like, who's the—basically, I was asking, like, is there any female version of you? I mean...
Connor Beaton
I think there's a woman named Michaela Boehm who's doing some interesting work. And I've had her on my show before, and it's one of the most downloaded episodes that I've ever had, even though it was, you know, years ago. She... I think she was on like—what the hell is her name? She was on the Goop show—Sex, Love & Goop, or something like that—and, you know, sort of became very popular. But she's kind of like a no BS. She talks about masculine and feminine, but she uses the frame “go and flow” instead of masculine and feminine. The masculine is the “go,” and the feminine is the “flow.” So she says “go and flow.” But I think that she does a very good job of speaking and working with women around a lot of these topics. And, you know, I empathize with women in today's culture. I think there's a tremendous amount of stress and pressure and expectations on women within our modern culture to be everything. You know, to be the woman who is making the six-figure salary, or started her own business, and to be the mom, and to, you know, be in amazing shape. And it's just... you know, the amount of expectations that are on women in our modern culture is immense. And I mean, so too, you know, as it is with men. I think they're just a little bit different. But I do wish in some ways that more women would step forward and advocate for women to really embody what is—I don’t want to say it... not “healthy,” but what it is that they really desire. Because I think that a lot of women in our modern culture have been sold something, and then they get into it down the road and realize that it’s actually not very satiating for them. Not actually very fulfilling for them. The role, the titles, the... you know, I think I read the stat that by 2040, it’ll be something like 32% of women in their 40s will be single and childless. And of that percentage, 8 out of 10 of them will be childless not by choice. And there are whole entire groups being formed within our culture now of women who are grieving not being able to have a child. And that’s a very complicated conversation, of course. But there are a tremendous amount of women out there who are, you know, so deep into their careers that they don’t prioritize relationship until the last moment, and then it’s like frantic. I’ve worked with some of those women. I had a client who was a very high-powered lawyer in New York, and she had helped to build out—she was a partner in her firm. Incredible woman. She came to work with me, one, because she wanted to understand men better, but two, because she was in her late 30s and found herself panicked about not being able to have children and not being able to find a man who, you know, would sort of meet her requirements and her desires. And so... yeah. I think it's very challenging. So I do hope that a lot more women, you know, start to have these conversations, even if it’s amongst themselves. You know, to say like, “If you want to have kids when you’re 29, like, that’s okay. Go for it. If you want to, you know, be a housewife and have your partner earn all the money, that’s all right. That’s okay for you to do that.” To renormalize that. There are women out there who don’t want to go do those things, you know, and it’s okay if there’s women out there that want to go and pursue all those things, right? It’s not one or the other. But I really hope that some more women sort of step forward.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that raising kids and running a household is probably the most important role in society, in my opinion. And...
Connor Beaton
It used to be... We know developmentally that between the ages of zero and three—when you look at child psychology—the single most important relationship that every single human being will experience in the first three years of their life is the relationship between you and your mother. Period. Full stop. Without question. It’s really not a sort of debatable thing. We fundamentally know that our nervous systems, our neurology, a lot of our behavioral patterns emerge out of these formative years where you are in relationship with your mother. And for the first sort of like 18 months as an infant, you cognitively can’t tell the difference between you and your mother. That’s how closely ingrained you are developmentally, psychologically, with your mother. That for the first 18 months, there’s not really a distinction between who you are and who your mother is. And so what she experiences, you experience. And what she goes through, you go through. And a lot of—I think a lot of people, you know, struggle with this in some ways because it’s like, well, how do we—my wife and I had lots of conversations around this, right? She was like, “Well, how do I deal with my career and my business and be a mom?” There was a lot of conversation around sacrifice and what was really meaningful and important. You know, how she wanted to operate during those times. And so I think that these are conversations that we need to have because it’s an incredibly important role. And yet within our modern culture, it does seem like it’s become something that’s been sort of taken for granted, undermined, devalued, depreciated. I mean, watching my wife go through giving birth and becoming a mom, I’m like, man... so much respect for women. Like, I have no idea what that experience is like. But what an undertaking. What an endeavor. And then to have this thing that’s reliant on you—you know, if you decide to breastfeed—that’s reliant on you and that needs you like every fricking 90 minutes. I mean, holy shit. Could you imagine going through that as a dude? I mean, I would just—I'm like, I don’t know if I could handle that. Like, that’s a lot of infringing on my freedom. So anyway, a lot of respect for women who decide to enter into motherhood and who can enter into motherhood. And, you know, I think that it’s such a valuable thing within our society that we have maybe started to unconsciously depreciate.
Michael Frampton
That would—it sounds like you came across a lot of this knowledge before you had kids. So then you and your wife were able to talk about, you know, how much time should you be working? How much time should you be spending with our little one, given that we know about how important that is? That would be a fascinating conversation. Gosh, probably even a book—for society to listen to you guys riff and what you guys came up with and how you approached it. And like, I think that that's maybe one of the things that’s missing is not only is there a female voice missing. There’s the voice of how a—let’s call it an enlightened masculine—meets an enlightened feminine. How do they negotiate this modern world? Because clearly we went too far. Yeah, you know, as the Industrial Revolution happened, we've kind of—we stuffed it up. We went too far in the wrong direction. And now we're—the people are—Andrew Tate is bringing it back. But where is that feminine voice? And where is that relational voice? So this is maybe a little seed for a podcast episode for you. But I want to transition. I know full well how important that motherly role is. My ex passed away. So I’m now a solo widowed father of three young boys. So I know how hard and important—and having both parents—you know, you’re down to one. You have to encompass all of those roles. And so let me ask you, have you come across any books or any principles that are guiding your role as a father to your young boy?
Connor Beaton
Maybe not any books necessarily. I didn't really dig into, like, dad literature per se or seek out books. You know, I mean, I asked around for references, and, you know, a lot of the men that I knew who became fathers didn't really have anything to offer. And so I think that that's—I think there will be more of that in the future, that men are writing more and more about fatherhood and what it means and what it takes. I think for me, in a lot of ways, I have had the fortune of having a number of older mentors in my life who have just been vital in helping me understand the transition into fatherhood. You know, I've had three older mentors now, two of them in their mid-70s. One of them passed away years ago, and he was a very close mentor of mine in my late 20s. And the other one is in his mid-70s right now. And the other one was in his 60s. I worked with him for a number of years in a mentorship and training role. And so I think in a lot of ways, I've learned from the men who have come before me. And I think some of the principles are pretty simple. Eeeeee... here's what I'll say. I've spent, I don't know, six to eight thousand hours working with men. And, you know, in person, individually, in groups, online, in person, in groups. And one of the things that I have learned time and time again, one of the things that I've heard time and time again, is that for a lot of men, it was incredibly damaging to not have a present father. And when I hear men talk about what they needed, what they wanted, what they didn't get from their father, it is literally presence. He didn't ask me questions. He just wasn't there. He didn't show up for my games. He didn't check in with me to see how I was doing in my relationship. He didn't take the time to teach me simple things like how to start a fire or chop wood properly or, you know, whatever it is—build a structure out in nature. So I think for me, how I've tried to approach parenting is after having listened to so many men talk about the wounds of their fathers, it has become very clear to me that outside of the big stuff—right? Being physically abused or emotionally neglected or mentally abused—the big primary thing that a lot of men struggle with in terms of being a father was lacking presence from their father. And so for me, I know what my role is with my son, that the primary principle is presence. Whatever he's doing, I'm there. I'm focused in on it. My phone's away. I'm not distracted. I'm not thinking about the 10,000 things that I have to do. And trust me, there are 10,000 fucking things that I have to do constantly. I run a decent-sized business, decent-sized podcast. I see clients all the time. I run these weekends. I have men come out, fly from around the world to come and work with me in person on my property. I'm incredibly busy, and I make time to just be present with my son. And that will never change. He will always have my presence. And I think that if you, as a man, can be a father who is deeply present, who is curious about who their child is, who is willing to contribute to the curation of that child... You know, every boy—every man that I have ever worked with—was a boy who desired and yearned to be influenced by his father. And I really want that to be driven home to every single man who's going to become a father. Every single man who I have ever worked with was at one point a son who desired and yearned to be influenced by his father. Obviously in a healthy way, in a positive way, but deeply craved for that. And so if you can become a man who values himself and appreciates himself and, you know, lives an interesting life, has some interesting hobbies, knows interesting stories, and you take the time to not only be present for your children—specifically your son—but you take the time to, in your own way, influence your children, they will be deeply grateful for it. There is nothing more damaging for a child than feeling like their father doesn't want to give time to them. Doesn't want to give presence to them. And so, I think that's the primary principle for me. And that's based off of just working with so many men over the years who were hurt in some way by their father. And, yeah, I think that's where I would leave it. It's just those pieces, and then work diligently to be someone you respect. You know, there's—again, I've worked with so many men who's just like, "I didn't respect my dad because he didn't respect himself. He didn't seem to like himself. He fucking hated himself. He drank himself, you know, into oblivion constantly." Or, "He was constantly, you know, talking shit about himself," or, "He was insecure," or, "He never stood up to my mom. He didn't have a spine." If you work diligently on becoming a man that you respect... your son might not like you sometimes, but he will value who you are, because you will have modeled doing something unbelievably hard. So, I'll leave those pieces there.
Michael Frampton
That's a great answer. I like that. What's... what practice influences you the most in terms of the quality of your presence?
Connor Beaton
The breath. Pretty simple. The way that our autonomic nervous system works—between our parasympathetic and our sympathetic nervous system. So your autonomic nervous system is broken down into those two parts: sympathetic and parasympathetic. Your sympathetic is like the gas pedal system. You know, releases cortisol and stress hormones. And your parasympathetic is your relaxed part of your nervous system. And the more relaxed you are, the more you're capable of being present. And the challenge that I see a lot of men facing in today's world is that they are constantly living in their sympathetic nervous system. They don't know how to turn it off. They're constantly stressed. They're constantly overwhelmed. They're constantly inundated. They are always on their phone. They're sending emails. They're using alcohol to down-regulate, to just feel a little bit more calm, or smoking weed so that they can be less stressed out, or whatever their coping mechanism is. And for me, the breath is actually—your breath is the modulator, the dial on your spectrum between the stressed part of your nervous system and the relaxed part of your nervous system. So if you're somebody that's disconnected from their breath and you are always breathing through your mouth, and you're breathing quickly, and you're not getting a deep breath into your body, your system—your physical body—will be in a stress response most of the time. And that is going to cause you to struggle to be present for your girlfriend, boyfriend, wife, son, daughter, etc.—for everybody in your life. And so the more tuned in to your breath that you are—and this is clinically proven, right? I'm not just talking out of my ass, right? This is clinically proven—the more tuned in to your breath you are, the more that you breathe through your nose, the more that you deploy breathing exercises, simple tactics, the more that you are able to what's called down-regulate your nervous system. So you can move out of that stressed response within your nervous system down into a more relaxed state within your body. And that is without question one of the most valuable things that you can do. So do breathwork every day. Study very simple breath tools and tactics, right? A very easy one to remember is: inhale through the nose for a count of four, hold for two, exhale out the mouth for a count of seven, hold for two, and repeat. And you just do that. If you do that for about three or four minutes, what will happen is it will force your breath rate to regulate, and it'll actually bring your breath rate per minute down, which will force your heart rate per minute down. And that will send the signals from your body to your brain to move out of your sympathetic nervous system. So your body will actually slow down the release of things like adrenaline and cortisol and, you know, all of these things that are usually flowing through our system in higher volumes when we're stressed out. So simple things like that are going to help you be a lot more present for your kids.
Michael Frampton
Yep. No, I love that. And we're a big fan of breathwork and meditation on this podcast. So, awesome. Yeah, I can second all of that stuff. Breathwork changed my life when I first dived into the deeper transformational breathwork stuff. So, yep. It's just coming up to the hour there, Connor. So let's wrap this up. We didn’t even really get to talk about your book, which I was hoping to finish before this, but it's one of those books where it's like, “Shit, this is a book.” This is not like a PDF that's been turned into an Amazon print-off. It's a behemoth of a book, and it's intense, and it's in-depth, and it's an amazing book. So I will point people in that direction. And your website is mantalks.com. And that’s the podcast of the same name. I will put links to all of that stuff in the show notes. And those who are listening, if you want to hear more from Connor, there’s the podcast, there’s the book. And thank you so much for your time, Connor.
Connor Beaton
Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it.
Michael Frampton
All right. Thanks, brother.
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