017: Dr. JOHN DEMARTINI - Performance and Behavior Specialist
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Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Unlocking Surfing Mastery and Flow States with Dr. John Demartini
What separates the world’s best surfers from the rest, and how can you tap into that mastery to elevate your surfing to new heights?
In this episode, Dr. John Demartini dives into the philosophy and psychology behind mastery, exploring how surfers can achieve consistent flow states, overcome anxiety, and refine their skills by focusing on the finer details. Whether you're a competitive surfer or simply looking to deepen your connection with the ocean, these insights will help you unlock your potential.
Learn how mastering the “executive center” of your brain can elevate your surfing performance and keep you centered in the most challenging conditions.
Discover the power of mentorship, visualization, and incremental progress to fast-track your path to mastery.
Understand the balance between humility and confidence for sustainable long-term growth in both surfing and life.
Tune in to discover practical strategies and transformative insights to help you surf with precision, purpose, and passion—press play now!
Notable Quotes:
"A master is one who focuses on every finer detail and doesn't miss a thing."
"The wave is alive—it holds information about the universe, and when you align with it, you become one with nature."
"It's not about being cocky; it’s about being certain—with gratitude and presence, mastery follows."
"Nature rewards humility and focus. Those who fight it never win."
Dr. John Demartini - Performance and Behavior Specialist.
Dedicated to Maximizing Your Potential & Helping You to Love Your Life!
John discusses the differences between good surfers and great surfers - those surfers who are truly on the path to surf mastery. What the greats do differently, how they get into flow states (the zone) more consistently and deeply than most surfers. How your emotions can affect your surfing, how to maximize your presence and awareness in the water. How to overcome performance anxiety and much much more.
If you are serious about mastering surfing then John's educational material is essential for maximizing your potential.John is also a best-selling author, I recommend every surfer reads 'The Values Factor'. There are so many valuable tips in this interview.
Enjoy.
Key Points
Dr. Demartini defined mastery as the ever greater refinement and more effective and efficient expression of tube riding and riding great waves of all different sizes.
Dr. Demartini explained that truly great surfers put in more mileage, effort, and training compared to average surfers.
Dr. Demartini described how a surfer named Al Chapman would meticulously study the waves and timing of sets at Sunset Beach before paddling out.
Dr. Demartini emphasized the importance of having a mentor or watching videos of great surfers to speed up the learning process.
Dr. Demartini discussed the concept of being in a "flow state" or "the zone" and how it relates to peak performance in surfing.
Dr. Demartini explained how emotions and mental states can affect physical movements and efficiency while paddling and surfing.
Dr. Demartini advised surfers to practice being present in between performances to achieve a consistent state of flow.
Dr. Demartini suggested that surfers who truly love the sport will be inspired to eat well and take care of their bodies to maximize performance.
Outline
Mastery in Surfing
Dr. Demartini defines mastery in surfing as the ever-greater refinement and more effective and efficient expression of tube riding and riding great waves of all different sizes.
Mastery involves putting in more mileage, effort, and training than others.
The ability to master any size and condition is emphasized, turning it into an amazing opportunity.
Truly great surfers demonstrate an obsessive level of dedication, though inspiration is preferred over obsession.
Masters focus on every finer detail that the average surfer is not aware of, practicing in between their performances rather than just during them.
Key Traits of Master Surfers
Master surfers put in significantly more time, effort, and training than others.
They demonstrate an intimate understanding of ocean conditions, wave patterns, and surf spots.
Exceptional accuracy in reading and anticipating waves is a key trait of master surfers.
A highly efficient paddling technique allows for catching more waves.
Maintaining a centered, emotionally stable presence while surfing is crucial.
Refining skills rather than comparing oneself to others is a focus for master surfers.
Extensive practice and preparation occur between surfing sessions, not just during them.
A deep respect for and connection with nature and the ocean is evident among master surfers.
Mental State in Surfing Performance
Being present and focused on the wave is essential for peak performance.
Comparing oneself to others or worrying about competition can negatively impact performance.
Balancing confidence and humility is important; being too cocky can lead to injuries or poor performance.
Gratitude for the opportunity to surf and respect for nature can enhance one's connection with the waves.
Visualization and mental rehearsal of surfing maneuvers can improve actual performance.
Staying centered emotionally and mentally leads to more graceful, efficient movements in the water.
Achieving Flow State in Surfing
In this state, surfers experience heightened attention, quicker decision-making, and smoother execution.
Flow state occurs when surfing aligns with one's highest values and feels like their life's purpose.
Being fully present with the wave involves extracting space and time from one's mind.
Achieving flow state consistently requires practice and focus on being present in the moment.
Comparing oneself to others or worrying about competition can prevent entering a flow state.
Aligning Surfing with Highest Values
When surfing is a top priority, it activates the brain's executive center, leading to better performance.
Surfers who see surfing as their life's purpose, rather than just a hobby, are more likely to achieve mastery.
Inspiration, rather than obsession, drives true masters to continually refine their skills.
Long-term vision and commitment to surfing as a lifelong pursuit contribute to mastery.
Preparing for Optimal Surfing Performance
Proper nutrition is crucial for maintaining energy levels and overall health.
Quality sleep and recovery are important for sustained performance.
Mental preparation, including visualization and setting clear intentions, can improve surfing outcomes.
Studying wave patterns, ocean conditions, and surf spots can give surfers an edge in performance.
Balancing surfing with other aspects of life contributes to long-term success and fulfillment.
Connection Between Surfers and the Natural World
Understanding the complex factors that influence wave formation can enhance surfing ability.
Respecting the power of the ocean and being aware of potential dangers is crucial for safety.
Viewing surfing as a way to connect with nature rather than conquer it leads to a more fulfilling experience.
Recognizing the interconnectedness of all elements in nature can inspire a sense of awe and humility in surfers.
Transcription
Dr. John Demartini
Not letting emotions waver them. Their head will stay centered while they're patterned.
Michael Frampton
Welcome to the Surfing Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better.
Dr. John Demartini
Masters, one who focuses on every finer detail and doesn't miss a detail. The average surfer is not aware of those things.
Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surfing Mastery Podcast. It's been a little while since I released an episode, but I promise you the wait has been worth it. Today's episode is my favorite so far. I had the opportunity to interview Dr. John Demartini. John is a surfer from the United States of America, but professionally, John is a performance and behavior specialist dedicated to maximizing your potential and helping you to love your life. John is so much more than that. He's a philosopher, a coach, a teacher. I just urge you guys—this podcast or this interview is well worth multiple listens. And I urge you to go to John's website—that's drdemartini.com. Have a look around. He's got some awesome books, some awesome DVDs, etc. Anyway, without further ado, here is the interview. Please enjoy. Please go on to Facebook and give us some feedback, any questions, etc.
Michael Frampton
Enjoy. What's your definition of mastery?
Dr. John Demartini
Mastery? Well, I had a dream to master my life and I perceived that my life had seven areas. So I wanted to be inspired and do what I do, what I really am inspired by doing. I wanted to wake up my genius and I wanted to have a great mind. I wanted to have an international business, which I did—traveled around the world. I wanted to have a successful business. In other words, I wanted to have financial independence, which I was blessed to have. I wanted to have a global relationship. I didn't want to live in a little suburbia house. I wanted to have social influence. And I wanted to have a vital body at a ripe old age—and still doing pretty good at 62. So that was mastery of those areas. But a master of any field—surf mastery—would be the mastery of surfing and the ever-greater refinement and more effective and efficient expression of tube riding, basically, and riding great waves, all different sizes. Be able to master any size, any condition, and turn it into an amazing opportunity.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. I love that definition. And what do you think separates the good surfer from the great surfer that's truly on that path?
Dr. John Demartini
The really truly great surfers that I had the opportunity to meet put in more mileage. They put in more effort, more training. I remember one time I was at Al Chapman's A-frame on the North Shore of Oahu near Rocky Point, and he was sleeping, and a friend of mine and I were expanding our consciousness. And all of a sudden another guy came in and said, "The swell's coming in." And we knew a big swell was coming. But it was not that big, but it was coming in, and the lines were just—they're coming in out of nowhere. You could see them coming in, and Al looked out his little window and saw the lines and knew the angle and knew that Sunset would be right on. So he got his board.
Al was a unique guy—he was kind of an interesting character. He didn’t really socialize and interact with a lot of people at the time, at least the people I hung out with. And he went out, and so we followed him. And we were sitting on the beach on an incline at Sunset Beach, looking down at him. He was sitting in the sand in a meditative kind of lotus position and had his board next to him, and he was memorizing how many seconds were in between the sets and memorizing, with his eyes closed, how frequent the sets were. He was counting second by second the timing between sets— which one is the biggest wave in the set—and was familiarizing himself with what was coming in.
He was looking at the way it rolled down the beach, as the angle it was hitting the sand was telling it, and he could tell by whether it was rolling sideways or coming straight in. He knew so much about Sunset Beach that he could tell when to paddle, where to paddle. It was amazing. He understood the sequence of the sets—so there’d be like three sets, and then a pause, and there’d be four sets, and then a pause kind of thing.
Other people were starting to get there to go out, and you could see them trying to get out through the shore break, and it was just getting big quick. And he waited. He went out—I don’t think he even got his hair wet going out—and he knew the set. He timed it. He just paddled and he caught the rip at Sunset—there’s a rip there taking you out—and he rode the rip out with one hand paddling gently and the other just on the front of his board.
So we wanted to watch him surfing because he’s a great surfer. We were looking through binoculars, and we watched him go out and he picked, without question, the biggest wave that was coming in. And it was getting big quick. Nobody goes left on a big Sunset—he goes right—but he took off right, and on the drop he swapped and went left into the tube and went right into this massive wall that went halfway down to Belzeland. And we watched this—we said, “This guy's nuts.”
And it was just this giant beautiful thing. He rode this tube into oblivion, and we didn’t know if he—the whitewater was so big that was coming in—we didn’t know if the guy was going to make it. We thought for sure he was on that ledge at Sunset. And then he came popping up, and he came in, and he rode one big wave. He went left, and then he came in and went back to his A-frame. It was the wildest thing.
But watching him synchronize the rhythms of nature and the language of the ocean was such an educational experience. And even though we didn’t accumulate what he had accumulated, and we didn’t know what he knew, we attempted to get a sense for our surfing from that day on that way, and it was very helpful. And that's another step in mastery.
I’m not a master surfer. At the time, there were great surfers. You know, in my time, there was Jerry Lopez—he was pipeline master. And so watching him do Pipeline with such elegance and such amazement was something to watch.
And there was another guy that nobody knew about. He was never in any contest, who rode without a doubt the most outrageous waves, who had a thousand scars on his body and was the most daring guy. And he was never into any contest—never was in any competition. It was just him and nature and the wave. Watching him surfing—he was as great as many of the surfers but never a competitor. He was just out there surfing the big, great waves and was always out there whenever the waves were just perfect—just amazing.
And so yeah, mastery to me in surfing, and watching guys that take it to another level, was inspiring to watch. I saw Jerry Lopez get on Big Monday this one particular time. It was this really big Monday, and I mean photographers were everywhere. It was just this perfect Pipeline and it was giant. An outer reef was breaking and the inner reef was just perfect.
And he was riding this wave—this one wave he caught—and he just got in the tube and he just got so far back in that it finally caught up with him. And then it just—he lost his board, and it came in, and he was standing on—it looked like six inches of coral. I mean, the water was six inches deep. He’s standing on coral, and another massive set is about to break on him. And so we see this massive lip coming down onto Jerry Lopez and just smashing him into the coral. And then we saw his body just floating down in the rip. And they had to go out and get him. He lived through it, but it’s amazing.
I mean, I was on the beach watching that day. I wasn’t out there doing it. A 10-foot Pipeline, which is about 20-foot faces, maybe 25-foot faces—I could be out there, and I certainly wouldn’t take on the steepest ones. I would get the ones I knew I could make. But these guys were just—they just had, I guess, a mastery. They made the most difficult waves look simpler because they practiced surfing. They mastered—they were out there swimming in between the swells, memorizing all the corals, looking at lineups, knowing exactly where the rips were based on the angles, watching exactly how it hit the beach and what the rip was doing. They were into details.
A master is one who focuses on every finer detail and doesn't miss a detail. The average surfer is not aware of those things. And they were out there doing outrageous stuff on it, snorkeling on the calm days and looking at what was underneath and why it was breaking the way it was and where you would have a little bowl depending on where the lineup was. And so they mapped these things out. They were very aware of these details that the average person just went out surfing.
I always say a master is the one who practices in between their performance, and the amateur is the one who practices at the performance. I’m not going to call it an obsession.
Michael Frampton
So you do have to have quite an obsession with something to master it.
Dr. John Demartini
I would just call it an inspiration. Other people would call it an obsession. Yeah, what other people—anybody that doesn't have the surfing high enough on their values to see why they're mastering it—would see it as an obsession because they would think that these guys are, you know, crazy. But they're inspired by the mastery of surfing, inspired by finding out what they're capable of doing. And instead of comparing themselves to other surfing, they would look at what other surfers are pulling off, and then they would look at what they're capable of doing. And then they would look at why they're not able to do that, and they would figure out a way to break through that and observe them—not from an intimidation perspective, but from an execution perspective. They're looking at how they're executing it, what they're doing with their arms when they paddle.
For instance, there were guys that were paddling and they could catch almost two and three times the number of waves because they had skills at paddling. There’s a lot of laws that I teach in the Breakthrough Experience program, and surfing that I've seen a lot of correlates. If you're centered and you're not wavering in your emotions, you perform and are more masterful. And just like in martial arts, when you're centered, you're able to dance—not move all over the place. And paddlers, it's almost like they're hydroplaning—the way they’re holding their bodies up, their heads are steady. You don’t see wavering emotion in their body. You see the centered presence when they’re surfing. They're really masters. You can watch the way they do it, and they outswim, they outpaddle, they can grab waves the other people can't do.
I've seen really great surfing—be behind somebody, paddle more efficiently, get in front and take a wave and get twice as many waves or three times as many waves as a guy that, within the lineup, you would have thought for sure would have made it. But they were hesitant. They were hesitant instead of consistent. And you could see them waiting to see if it was going to match what they knew, instead of taking the wave and creating it. The masters would create the wave and know how to position themselves, and the other ones would—if they happened to catch it at the right band thing, they would take it and then hesitate. If it wasn’t the way they were used to, they didn’t have enough repertoire to use the waves to their advantage.
So there’s just lots of things that the master did that inspired to watch. So they are—they’re dedicated to mastery, their science, their art. Yeah, it's a science and art and a philosophy. Yeah, there’s a philosophy to surfing too.
Michael Frampton
So obviously, you know, looking for the finer details and, you know, just being inspired by others and spending the time—you know, like you say, in between surfing as well as doing lots of surfing—is going to help. But there’s what we call in the athletic development world, and in the extreme sports world, something called being in flow, in a flow state, or sometimes called being in the zone. That obviously—that obviously speeds up your progression. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about some of the neuroscience behind flow states.
Dr. John Demartini
Just like in—not just surfing, but in any endeavor—each individual has a set of values. And if the highest value in their life, say, let's say, is surfing—it’s one of their highest values—then when they’re doing it, they are more likely to be in their executive center in their brain. The executive center is involved in inspired vision, strategic planning, executing plans, and self-governance. It shows up in a body language of grace. They’re fluid. They’re purely adaptable. They’re resilient.
And because they're living by their highest values, their attention is heightened, their decision-making is quicker, and their execution is smoother. There are more refined motor skills than gross reactions. So anytime the person sees that surfing is so high in their values that it’s their way of life—it’s not a hobby, it's their life—if they feel like this is what they're here to do, they’re here to become one with the wave, you might say, those individuals will get the blood supply and oxygen up into the executive center. And that executive center will allow them to have that grace, that being in the zone.
And they'll see, no matter what happens on the wave, they’ll dance with it. And they’ll be spontaneously aware and spontaneously deciding and spontaneously executing according to that in the moment. Whenever you're living by your highest value and you're in your executive center, you have extracted out space and time in your mind, and you're more present with whatever is happening. And you're literally one with it.
If you're doing it because you have to do it, you're doing it because you're comparing yourself to somebody else, and you're not doing it because you absolutely love doing it, you won’t be in the executive center. And you'll be having to work at getting—you’ll think it's about, "Hey, if you work harder, you'll do it," or if—you know. But it's not just about working harder. It’s about being present, more efficient. And that’s what happens when you're there in the executive center. Your body is graceful. It’s present.
Almost anybody in any field who's really congruent with what they’re doing gets to experience that zone. We could call it being in the flow. We could call it being self-actualized. We could call it in the zone. We could call it present. We could give it different names. All different writers have given it different names. But that executive center allows us that advantage.
And it puts us in a—where we're not even in comp—we're not worrying about competition. We’re there. We’re not in competition with somebody else. We’re not comparing ourselves to somebody else so much. We’re actually there to refine our skills and be present with it and being in the dance.
I remember a lady that lived behind me when I was 18 years old. When I moved back from Hawaii, I moved to Richmond, Texas, and there was a young girl there that had a tennis court on her yard. And she asked me if I could play tennis with her. And the first time I went there, I beat her. And for about the first month or so, I beat her. And I wasn’t a great tennis player—I just played tennis—but she said, "I’m learning tennis." And she was taking classes.
And she didn’t care if she won or lost. But she used me as a person to volley balls back so she could practice mastery—her skills. So she had a tennis pro teaching her skills, and she was just using me. I was doing it competitively and trying to win. And she was just trying to master the skill and using me as a punching bag, you might say, to practice on.
Within two and a half months, I couldn’t beat her. Within three months, I didn’t want to play with her because there was no way I could beat her, because she just kept refining her skill. And she was there to master tennis. She went on to do great things in tennis—not only in high school but college and many other things.
So it just was—the difference in the amateur and the person who’s really committed to it is—the amateur doesn’t have the executive center working on their behalf. And the master does. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So I think most surfing can relate to the way you speak about the executive center, or being in the zone, and you know, time slowing down, etc. But I think a lot of surfing struggle with getting to that place. Even if surfing is one of their highest values, they struggle with the consistency of performance—you know, they struggle to get in that zone consistently.
Dr. John Demartini
Well, I think they're probably again comparing. Just like if you're comparing yourself to another person while you're in competition, and you're assuming that they're doing something greater, you're automatically going to minimize yourself. And the second you do, you're out of your zone. So, you have to take whatever you're doing and see it on the way and ask, "How is it helping me to become greater?" Because if you build up a fantasy about how you're supposed to perform because of comparisons, instead of actually just seeing, no matter what you do, "How is it helping me become more masterful and how do I refine it?"
Foresight and mentorship will speed up the process, instead of having to learn through trial and error. And you'll trial and error it if you don't have a commitment to the mastery. So you ask yourself, "What worked and what didn't work today, and how do I refine it?" And you videotape it. Videotaping yourself and getting feedback from people that know what they're doing will speed up the process.
I mean, just on paddling—just watching—there was a guy in my time called Ipa. And Ipa was this big guy, big kind of a Hawaiian guy, and he had this little entourage of other surfing that were up-and-coming. Some of them were competitive—Reno Abellira was one of them—but there were some that were competitive, and most of them were just local Hawaiians who didn’t like the haole. But over time, at first we had a clash and there was a fight between these Americans coming over there. But after he sees that you're there for a while, he befriends you. And I became friends with him.
And he taught me a lot about when to take off. I could have probably spent two more years there and probably figured that out through trial and error. But he told me what to take off on and what not to on a set, and that one 10-minute conversation allowed me to get another probably one out of five waves, which gave me a competitive advantage to learn how to surf. And just watching him—what he did and how he would take off and when he would get up and when and how he did bottom turns—I found that when he did a really strong bottom turn, his top turns and bottom turns were different.
I was sometimes afraid to make a real drawn-out bottom turn and really use my body properly. And he could go through a section that most people would get closed out on, and he could make it through that section. The way he used his legs and the way he did bottom turns—just watching him do that from above, looking down when he'd take off, and from watching paddling out and from the beach—was something to practice. So having a mentor ahead of time or watching videos of the great surfing and then videoing yourself and looking at the difference, I think, could speed up some of that learning process.
So, how serious are you? That’s what it boils down to. Yeah?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, but there are ways to short—like you said, you know, a 10-minute conversation saved you two years of trial and error.
Dr. John Demartini
Yeah, and there was another guy that had—I think he had a death wish, it’s the only way I can explain it. He had a death wish. He didn’t care if he died. He was able to take off on waves that there’s no way I had the courage or the sense to take off on.
And watching him take off on the waves and making it—and then, I used to go out in the afternoon. I surfed in the morning from about 5:45, 6 o’clock to about 11. Then I would come in and eat. Then I would go back out at 1 to 4. Then I would come in to eat, and I’d go back out till dark. And during the afternoon it was oftentimes choppy and blown out and stuff, and so I never really expected to get a lot of tubes and that because it was, you know, fumbly with waters. But I did it just for takeoffs and knowing full well that I'm gonna lunch it most of the time. And I just practiced takeoffs. That was it.
Just—the afternoon, nobody was out. Nobody would mess with it. It was all choppy. I would just practice taking off on waves and knowing full well that I was going to probably lunch most of them and just get caught, and enough to take the rip out. This was at Haleiwa usually, or someplace, or Laniakea or something. And I would just go and take off and just come in and go back out, paddle again—just to practice takeoffs.
And I found that increased my ability to take off on a wave, and that by doing that I caught probably another one out of five waves. Those two out of five added another 40% to practice that you wouldn’t get otherwise. So taking and itemizing the different components and actually practicing those individual components—incremental changes.
A lot of times people are willing to make this massive jump instead of allowing and honoring incremental change, and just doing incremental baby changes that all add up to make a great performance. I think that’s the thing—I break it down into its subcomponents. When I watched a gymnast who tried to go for the gold and be trained, we did literally little incremental changes until that person could see in their mind’s eye what they wanted.
If the surfing can’t see in their mind’s eye how to execute what they’re going to do in each setting, they’re probably not going to physiologically do it. They've got to see it in their mind’s eye. And that’s rehearsing that on the beach—in the mind—of what they’re going to do. So when they’re out there, that helps. It’s a mind game too. Rehearsing exactly where, what, where the lineup is, what you’re going to do, where the—
Michael Frampton
You mean like rehearsing specific—
Dr. John Demartini
Which wave, I mean. Seeing it in your mind’s eye and seeing what you’re going to do, and then going out there and executing it according to what you’ve decided. Where the agenda up front can be helpful. And then what happens, after a while it becomes automatic. And that’s when you’re in the zone—because now you’re in your executive center again.
Yeah, well watching them to learn something is different than emotionally minimizing yourself to somebody that you're infatuated with. I’ve had surfing—and people in sports—think the other person is so far ahead.
Michael Frampton
Yes, sometimes you said comparing yourself to other surfing—
Dr. John Demartini
They're great. There's no way I can ever do it. They just self-defeat. I ask them, "What do you see in them that you admire? Great. Where and when do you demonstrate that?" And I document where in their mind that they have it, so they know they have it. So they're not enamored and putting people up. They're respecting and appreciating their contribution and their knowledge and watching them for their skills, but knowing they have those components. That allows you not to be sidetracked. In a competition, for instance, if you're in a competition and you're in any way minimizing yourself to some other surfing, you've already defeated yourself. You've got to be able to believe that everything they have, you have, and then you want to master the skill and focus on being present with the wave.
Michael Frampton
What do you mean by knowing that you have what they have? Like, can we take a practical example of that?
Dr. John Demartini
So, if you admire them for their strength and stamina in paddling—good. Where do you demonstrate strength and stamina in paddling? Where have you demonstrated it? Pinpoint where it was, when it was, in the moments it was, and document it in your mind until you can see you have it in the same form in some way. Because it may be in a rip—you stayed in a rip for periods of time and you had incredible stamina and you demonstrated. So it's not that you don't have it. You just haven't seen it in the same form they have, but you've got to see where you have it, when you do. Instead of minimizing yourself to them when you're in competition with them, you're actually seeing you have it, and now I'm going to apply it in this setting.
Okay, so owning the trait is very helpful. Like I say, learning from somebody and respecting them and using them as a mentor is different than infatuating with them and minimizing yourself to them. That's a big difference. And knowing that distinction, I think, can make the difference. It's subtle. But being inspired by somebody and infatuating with somebody are two different things. Infatuating is seeing that they have a positive without a negative. Being inspired by them is knowing they have positives and negatives, and you can see that they use both to their advantage.
You've been to the Breakthrough Experience. Yeah. And you know when you're doing the Breakthrough Experience and you're actually seeing both sides synchronously, there's a different state of presence and love that occurs that you can't get from just seeing only positive sides. Infatuating with somebody—well, just think about this—infatuating with a girlfriend is different than loving somebody. Loving is embracing both sides. Infatuation is seeing one side and being blind to the other side.
So if you're infatuated with the person's out-surfing, you're blind to their downsides, and you're going to think that they have traits that you can't obtain. But if you see that they have other sides and strengths and weaknesses and you get to see they're a human being and that they're applying themselves more effectively that way, you can own those traits and you cannot put them up on pedestals. And you can actually catalyze what you see in them inside you in a more efficient way—because you have it already.
Michael Frampton
It feels like a subtle difference too, because if you're inspired by someone... inspired.
Dr. John Demartini
It's not missing. I've done that. I mean, I've had people in sports do that. I've seen people in celebrities and in Hollywood do that. I've seen politicians use it. And they're no longer intimidated—they're respectful, not intimidated. Infatuating with somebody—Emerson said, "Envy is ignorance and imitation is suicide." We're not here to put people on pedestals. We're here to put them in our hearts. If we put them in our hearts, we love them for who they are.
But I assure you, everybody's got two sides. You could take any great surfing and you can list things that are not necessarily the things you would admire about them. Yes, you can always find both sides. Talk to their girlfriends—they'll point them out. Or boyfriends in some cases. But knowing both sides and keeping a level of perspective on them and respecting them for their skills and their surfing, but not enamoring and infatuating with them, is helpful to help you compete.
Michael Frampton
You mentioned something just before about if someone's paddling and they're not wavering all over the place and they're staying nice and graceful and balanced, yeah, and you kind of mentioned how that might be a reflection of their deeper emotional state—yeah, what they're physically doing. How does that work?
Dr. John Demartini
Let me use an analogy. If I was to have anybody who's listening to this podcast sit up straight in their chair, look straight ahead with their head—but with their eyes, not their head—and look down to the right with their eyes, point all the way down to the right, and try to smile—it's faking. Can you feel it? Now frown down there—feels more natural. Now look up to the left—now it's easy to smile, isn't it?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I kind of smiled automatically.
Dr. John Demartini
Yes. Now try to frown up there—feels abnormal. So your brain is wired with an uplifting experience and a downright depressing experience. So if you're having an emotion, you're going to have a tendency to move your eyes in different positions. And the second you do, your body is going to respond to your eye positions.
So a person who's focused straight ahead with their eyes and not letting emotions waver them, their head will stay centered while they're paddling. It'd be completely different. There's no movement. And their breathing will be more diaphragmatic. But if you're in any way emotional, you move your breathing out of the diaphragmatic breathing—where you get the most oxygen—and you get up in your clavicular breathing and you're moving your body. And anytime you're moving back and forth, the movement through the water is less efficient.
So your head will be moving, your eyes—because of the eye positions—the head will be moving, the body will be moving, and you'll be tacking back and forth in the water, which is a less efficient path than a smooth thing with your head centered. It's exactly like when I was very young. I worked in the country plowing on a tractor. If you hold a tree a mile away and point that tree and get your tractor in the direction of that tree and never lose sight of the tree, you'll make an unbelievably straight furrow. But if you're looking 10 feet ahead of the wheels, you'll wobble all over the place.
So the longer the vision, the more steady the paddle. And the shorter the vision, the more wobbly the paddle. The longer your vision—if you're surfing for right now, "I've got to compete, I've got to win"—you're going to have less fluidity than if "I'm here to master surfing, this is another contest." The person that's thinking long-term and is looking at their lineup and knows where they're going and is focusing on it—not paying attention to what's going on out there—they're going out to do it, they're going to have a better paddle. They're going to catch more waves. They're going to be more stable. They're going to be less tired. They're going to be more graceful because you're going to be in the executive center thinking long-term.
People who are in the executive center expand the space and time horizons in their view. And people that are not and are there competing and comparing and emotional about things, they're in their amygdala and they're immediately wanting immediate gratification and they're trying to compete and they're sidetracked by the things that are immediately around them. And so that makes a difference in paddling and it makes a difference in your posture.
And when you're taking off, if you're thinking about the last wave or worrying about "you only got one more wave to go" in the heat, you're not present. Anytime you're in the future and you're in your past, you're in entropy and you're in breakdown and you're not in the zone. There's no way you're in the zone. You have to be one with that wave in that moment—present—and love that wave. Be present with that wave.
Michael Frampton
And if you find yourself not present and your mind is drifting somewhere else, perhaps while you're in the water waiting to catch a wave, is there some sort of strategy to bring you back?
Dr. John Demartini
Practice being present in between your performance, so when you're in your performance, it's just natural. Make a commitment now to start mastering that skill. If you're thinking again, if you're comparing, the only way you can be in competition and worrying about something and being anxious—you're not with the wave. You just lost the wave. Where's your mind? You're thinking about what people think about you—that just undermined it. You're thinking about the guy or girl that you're competing with—that mind, you're not on the wave. You have to be ready for that. You have to be focusing on the wave as if you're out there by yourself, out there surfing. Some of the best surf, sometimes, no one ever sees.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. There's often a lot of—even just anxiety—because catching a wave is such a unique and often rare experience that often happens very quickly. Waves can be short. There's often a lot of anxiety around that takeoff. And then, you know, even if you are doing surfing coaching and gaining more self-awareness of the way you surf, it's hard to implement those strategies because of that anxiety and rareness of that wave.
Dr. John Demartini
The thing is, just like in public speaking—as I'm a professional speaker—you never have a fear of speaking. Nobody has a fear of surfing.
Michael Frampton
No.
Dr. John Demartini
Nobody has a fear of speaking. They have a fear of speaking in front of somebody that they think is smarter, more successful, greater, more wealthy, more influential, better looking, better shape, or more inspired by what they're doing. So when you're out surfing, if you're saying in your mind, "They're more successful. They have won more tournaments. They have made more money. They have more fans. They're in better shape. They're better looking. More girls after them," that's it. If you're in that, you're already out of the zone. Because those are automatically competitions, and you're going to compare yourself to them, minimize yourself. That's where I would go in and immediately own all those things.
In between my performance, I would take that surfer that I felt that way toward, I would go in there and identify everything that I admired, and find out where I have it in the same form. Then I would go out there, and I would not be distracted by them, and then I'd be present surfing again.
And then I would go in there and realize that—Tiger Woods. I was walking at the British Open next to Tiger Woods. He came on our ship, you know, with the World, and we got to meet him and everything else—to meet with some of the people there. And then we got the opportunity to walk with him on some of the holes. And he had a caddie-psychologist guy with him. And it was very amazing watching the caddie-psychologist work with Tiger.
When Tiger hit a ball that was phenomenal, right down the red—this is before he had the issues with the girls, this was when he was at his peak—he would say, when he would see Tiger any way he laid it or up, he would calm him down and say, "When you're under pressure is when you do your best. And we still got plenty of holes to do." And he would calm him down and center him again.
If he would shoot it off into the woods or he shot off into a bunker or something like that, he would say, "This is when you're performing. This is when you shine. And this is where you do amazing things for the gallery—the people that are watching. This is when you do the most amazing things."
So he was regulating and giving him feedback to keep him centered. So if he was up, he would calm him down. If he was down, he would call him up—or center him up. And he would get him back on center.
The masters of surfing have the same process. If he's had an amazing wave and he's all elated with adrenaline, if he's wanting to show off and is so puffy and bragging about it, he's on his way down. If he's grateful and he's like, "Thank you to the universe and for the waves," and realizes that he wants to be thankful for the ocean and thankful for the weather and thankful for learning and thankful for himself, and realizes he's part of a whole entourage of people—and goes through that whole thing and sees he's part of that or she's part of that—better than if he goes, "Now look at me and look how great I am."
I watched—I won't give a name—but there was a very noted California surfer back in the early '70s that was a big-shot, hot-shot winner of California. When he came to Hawaii, he didn't do so great. It's a big difference between California surfing and Hawaiian surf—thicker, bigger. You can't do hot-dogging. It was more lines and things in those days than it was this hot-shot stuff.
And so he came over there, and he was cocky, and he was staying in the tent city that we were at in Haleiwa. And he was cocky and he was above everybody else. And he just got humbled. I mean, humbled. He got injured. He was out there cocky and he got really humbled.
And a guy who was in the tent got him drunk one night and said, "You know, I'm going to tell you the truth, dude. You're really tall. You're really—you know, if you want to be a great surfer, you need to love surfing and not love yourself so much. You've got to get out of yourself and get onto the wave and get on with this culture of surfing and realize that we're here as a culture to bring surfing to the world." And it shifted his whole thinking and humbled him.
You could see the difference in his surfing and his willingness to watch and observe and to learn and to listen—it was completely shifted because somebody spoke up to him and got him out of his own self-importance.
I don't think you can be great at surfing when you're too elated with yourself. You have to be grateful for the opportunity to surf, grateful for nature, study nature so you're really aware of it, and then go out there and keep looking at, "How can I refine and polish my skill tomorrow?" Every day is a learning process.
Michael Frampton
It works both ways though, doesn't it? I mean, you can be too cocky, and then you can—like you said—you can bring yourself well down.
Dr. John Demartini
A hubris is a grandisement—pride before the fall. Certainty is different than cocky. Certainty is mastery of a skill, and you're certain you can implement and execute a strategy with a grateful, present mind. Cocky is automatically a persona and mask covering up our insecurities—different.
You've seen people in Hollywood when they're receiving an award, and they are really humble with a tear in their eye, and they're just grateful, and they list all the teams and all the people that made it possible. And they did great performance, and they repeatedly do great performance, and they're just humble and grateful, and they just—they want to master the next one. They want to do a greater performance.
And then when somebody's up there that's a one-shot, big-shot that goes up and—you know—you can see they're above everybody else. Anytime you go above people, you're going to get humbled. Anytime you go below, you're going to get lifted. But when you're in the center, people respect you. And the respect is what—you gain respect. That's when you have the longest sustainable performance, in my opinion.
Michael Frampton
There's—like me as a surfer—you are... If you're a professional surfer at least, you're a performing artist, so you're kind of obligated to put on a show.
Dr. John Demartini
Yeah, but if you're putting on a show for them and you're cocky, you'll get humbled. There was a book that came out on sports injuries many years ago—30 or 40 years ago, about 36 years ago—and it was talking about people who were injured in sports. And when they compared themselves to others and thought they were greater than or less than others, that's when they got injured. Usually greater—usually cocky. That's when they had the most injuries. That's when they had the most tragic falls, injuries, circumstances.
You can do it. It's been shown—centered, grateful, focused, polished, presenting with certainty and putting on a fun act, performance—but you're still certain inside. You know how Muhammad Ali wasn't cocky? He was certain, but he played the role for the market—"I'm the greatest." But there was a certainty factor because he performed. He practiced. He got in the zone. The time he got focused on the show, he got his brain injury. He focused on money. When he was cocky, when he was actually insecure—if you go watch it—when he was actually uncertain and he was trying to put on too big an act to try to cover up his insecurity, that's when he got hurt.
I've made a list in the Breakthrough Experience and in my Prophecy I program.
Michael Frampton
So he wasn't focused on the show, he was...
Dr. John Demartini
I've asked thousands of people who have attended: go to the moment when you've had your greatest tragedies, most powerful injuries—really challenging injuries—and look and see if you were infatuated with somebody else, manic, elated, and cocky, or thinking you're greater or invincible. And you'll find that that's there every time. That's when the injury—that's when you end up, instead of being in the zone, that's when you get closed out and smashed on the rocks. That's when you're trying to—you're not present. You cannot perform your greatest surfing when you're not present. There's just no way. When you're in the zone, you're present. That's when you dance. And that's when you take off on something, your feet aren't even on the board, and you come back and land on the board and it just—it glides and you don't even know how you did it.
So it can't be a cocky feeling. It's—you don't know how you did it. You just felt like you were one with the wave, and the universe is working with you. There is an intelligence that I believe—even Einstein acknowledged—in nature. And Einstein said, "It's enough for me on a daily basis to sit in awe, humble before the intelligence that permeates the universe, and partake of exploring just a tiny portion of it on a daily basis." He had a humbleness like that. Same for Max Planck, same for Schrödinger. These guys were really humble to the intelligence that governs the universe. Even Michio Kaku, who just announced the intelligence of the universe recently in his physics—these guys were... They dedicated their lives to want to know how this intelligence works.
I think that there's a respect for the intelligence and the elegance and beauty of nature—and the life of nature. That's life. Waves are alive. They're filled with information and they're revealing what's going on meteorologically, geologically, sociologically, and what's going on in their mind. And if they're in tune with it, they're working with nature. If not, they're fighting nature. And Paul Bragg, one of my great teachers when I left Hawaii—who inspired me to do what I'm doing today—said that those that fight with nature don’t win.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. How would you define surfing itself?
Dr. John Demartini
Well, I think the tradition—I don't know where the first tradition... I mean, Hawaii was supposedly, you know, where it kind of took its great thing, but I think people have been curious about waves and riding things on waves from a young age—far back in history. I don't know when the beginning is. I mean, I know I've read some books on it. They say Hawaii, and you know, the Duke and all that. But I think it's been going on. And I think there's a—I don't see us—I don't know how a surfer could go anywhere where there's a wave and not just watch. You know what I'm talking about?
Yeah, I just—I don't care if I'm watching a ship go by and watching the waves, or a little lake with little bitty waves on the rocks, or in Antarctica—I watched waves on the ice. It doesn't matter where I am in the world or where I am in the ocean. There's a curiosity about what waves represent. Waves, in telecommunication, represent information. And it's information of what the geology and meteorology and sociology and what animals and plants and everything is doing at the time. And all the elements, and the recycling of the elements of nature—all working together to make those waves a certain way.
Because the density of the water, the amount of salinity, the pressure systems in the atmosphere—whether it's low or high pressure systems, the angle of the wind, what's going on with the time of the seasons, the sun, the solar winds, the moon—every one of those things, the master surfer would explore. All of those things. And want to learn everything they can about nature because there's no boundary between the surfer and the universe, as far as I'm concerned. There's not one thing in the universe that's not affecting the wave. And the more expanded our awareness of what is all affecting the waves, I think the more we're going to be one with the wave, and the less focused on ourself—because we become infinitesimal when we realize the waves are related to the infinite.
Michael Frampton
That's a good way to put it. Yeah—information. So obviously, you know, you've surfing, you've got the practical side of it like you just spoke about. But when it comes to yourself and keeping your physical body healthy through nutrition and movement and things, do you have any recommendations in that way?
Dr. John Demartini
Well, anytime you're doing something—if you know you've got a major, amazing event coming up—you're more likely to be disciplined. A woman who knows she's about to get married will be very disciplined in her eating style to get into that wedding dress that day. A person in any field of endeavor that knows they have an amazing performance to give, or they're going to be doing a special performance, they are usually more refined. And what's shown is that people who fill their day with high-priority actions that inspire them don't live to eat—they eat to live.
So a surfer who's committed to surfing and sees that no matter what's going on in the universe is part of surfing is more likely going to want to feed their body fuel that's going to maximize their performance, instead of just eating junk. I mean, you want to make sure you're drinking quality water because your electrolytes are going to tell you what your performance level is. You're going to want to make sure you're eating the proper proteins so your muscle performance is going to be at its peak. You're going to make sure that you have enough carbs to allow yourself to store energy. You're going to make sure that you study what works for you and do an inventory on that. As Gandhi, to maximize human performance as a leader, he wanted to find out what he was eating every day to find out when he led people more effectively. He watched his diet to find out how he led more effectively based on his energy levels and his confidence levels.
So I think a surfer, if they're fully on, I think they're going to respect their body because it's the body that allows them the medium to surf. They're going to respect it and see it as a temple to take care of. When I was surfing, I didn't have that respect until I turned 17. And then I met Paul Bragg, and Paul Bragg woke my mind up to this. The day I met him, I decided I was going to now eat to live and not live to eat. Beforehand, I didn't even think about nutrition, didn’t think about what I was fueling—just anything. It was whatever would allow me to have energy and I could go surfing.
But then I started eating quality foods and quality nutrients. My endurance went up. My ability to paddle went up. I slept—I didn’t need as much sleep. I could see the impact. It wasn't great—it wasn't like 50%—but it was a five or ten percent change that you could see that was worth that difference. And if you're a competitor and you are, you know, wanting to go out and excel and master this thing called surfing, then you might as well fuel your body and eat wisely.
You may go out and party, but I always say that partying is an escape. I did studies with young children. I had a lady named Betty Paikola who did a research project for me. She was 27 years into the study of human children’s behavior. And so I asked—I paid her—to gather every article she could find by every one of the great psychologists over the last 50 years on child development, so I could learn every stage and every natural stage that was going in there. And I then summarized it. We together summarized all these stages. We had a good feel for all the different theories about child development.
And after doing that, I then assumed that they were accurate because of all their research. But then I came across some children that found out what they really wanted to do at a young age and were very inspired, and who structured their lives in priority each day. And I found out that the normal patterns that those children went through—they didn’t do the normal patterns. They didn’t want to go out and eat sweets. They didn’t want to go out and just escape. They didn’t want to go party. They didn’t want to watch cartoons. They didn’t want to go and play. They wanted to get on with their mission.
And I saw a kid at six years old end up becoming a best-selling author by nine. I saw another girl who's a multimillionaire, now a supermodel and has her own fashion line. Another girl that's now working with Disney and has a five-and-a-half million dollar contract with Disney—and she was a young teenager. But they started at six, seven, eight, nine years old. And once they got really clear about what they were doing, they wanted to make sure that whatever they were doing was going to get them there. And they didn’t do all the normal patterns.
So then I took all that research and I revamped it by starting to not look at what the average person was, but on what the excellers and the peak performers and the people that did extraordinary things—what was their life like? I found a whole new thing. That’s what led me to the understanding of how important values are.
So I find that the people who are really taking—they feel it's their mission to be a master surfer—they're going to act different than somebody who's just, you know, a temporary fix they're going to do for a while. Or they're, you know, they want to show off or they want to excel, or they have a death wish. I watched a kid almost kill himself doing extreme sports and extreme surfing—nearly killed himself and almost became a quadriplegic. And I did watch a guy become quadriplegic. I've seen them. So—because of those—not really taking care of themselves.
Yeah. So I'm not saying that people will, but I've seen it. Yeah. If you're really—you’re going to want to—you’re going to have to think long-term. Because a lot of surfers are out there in the sun, and they wipe out their skin. And by the time they're 40s, 50s, and 60s, they're filled with melanoma.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so again, surfing will inspire you to eat better, live better.
Dr. John Demartini
They’ve been drinking too much, partying too much, drugging too much—some of them—and not really thinking long-term. And that catches you. That eventually catches you. It can shorten the lifespan of the surfer and the life of the surfing. Yeah.
There was a guy in La Libertad, El Salvador. There was an octagon house right in front of the best point at La Libertad by the river mouth. And I used to surf there. And when the big swells were there—it’s such a beautiful right, magnificent right—and you can ride it for a long time. Sometimes it gets 40-foot faces. It just peels off all the way into the back.
And this guy was 40-something years old when I was there. And he was in better shape than any 20, 30-year-old guy. Better. More toned, etc. Even though he was in La Libertad—and that's not known for health foods—he had organic food, organic gardens. He had whole grains. He had fish. I mean, he ate wisely. And he lived in that octagon and he lived for surfing. And he was there and he surfed every day, no matter what was out there. He was out there surfing.
But he went out there early in the morning. He was out there in the evening. And he didn’t overdo the sun. He was smart. And he was endurant. And very few people could keep up with him in his 40s. He was doing stuff that people today are doing, but in those days, nobody did. Nobody was doing 360s repeatedly down the wave. And nobody was coming out of the water and coming back down into the surface—back in the early 70s. That just wasn’t—you didn’t see much of that.
But he was already doing that. And nobody even knew about the guy. He was nobody in any surfing movie. It was actually Jerry Lopez that came down there and met this guy, watched him, and befriended him. And then he kind of made a story about him one time in a surfing magazine. Other than that, the guy was just a dedicated surfer who worked, bought land so he could own that surf spot. And he had a surf spot. That was his space.
Michael Frampton
Excellent. Well, we've run out of time, John, but I thank you so much for your time. It's been invaluable. And I urge anyone listening out there who's been inspired by John's words to go and check out some more of John's material. I can't recommend his books and courses enough. Thank you.
Dr. John Demartini
Thank you. Thanks for giving me a chance to talk about surfing. Thank you.
Michael Frampton
I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surfing Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That’d be awesome. Until next time—keep surfing.
17 Dr John Demartini _ Performance & Behavior Specialist
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.