72 VAN NEISTAT - The Spirited Surfer
Is surfing really the soulful pursuit it claims to be — or just another brutal grind that no one warns you about?
In this soul-baring conversation, Michael sits down with filmmaker and artist Van Neistat to explore the deep frustrations of learning to surf, the myths around creative mastery, and the psychological tug-of-war between persistence and giving up. Whether you're chasing waves or chasing purpose, this episode will hit home.
Hear Van’s honest confession about why he no longer surfs — and what it says about surf culture at large
Discover the surprising connection between artistry, neurosis, and flow states
Learn what Van has gained (and lost) through decades of chasing meaning via The Spirited Man
Play this episode to experience a raw, unfiltered conversation that will challenge how you think about surfing, art, and why we do hard things.
Links to some of his work:
https://www.patreon.com/spiritedman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz_ETXDqdCU
https://spiritedman.com
Key Points
Persistence and time are essential for mastering surfing, akin to skiing where 'no friends on a powder day' reflects the competitive nature of the sport.
Surfing culture is often secretive and competitive, with many participants not willing to share knowledge or resources, creating a challenging environment for newcomers.
The complexity and cost of surfing, including the need for specialized equipment and suitable conditions, make it an inconvenient and expensive hobby.
The love-hate relationship with surfing can turn into an addiction, impacting personal and professional life, leading to a desire for control over the relationship with the ocean.
Artistic creation, like video-making, is a continuous struggle that requires discipline and persistence, despite the challenges of making a living from it.
Art, particularly comedy, serves as a vital medium for transferring feelings and emotions, making comedians some of the most significant artists of our time.
Tom Sachs' advice on leveraging corporate resources and maintaining artistic integrity while pursuing one's craft has been influential in monetizing artistic endeavors without compromising artistic values.
The grind and dedication required in creative pursuits, such as making YouTube videos, necessitate a deep love for the craft to sustain the effort and passion needed for success.
Podcasts and other audio mediums serve as a valuable resource for continuous learning and inspiration, replacing negative thoughts with more constructive and intelligent content.
Surfing, unlike many professional sports, continues to be a beloved activity even after retirement, reflecting a deep personal connection and passion for the sport.
Outline
Surfing
Van discussed the challenges and frustrations of learning to surf, emphasizing the lack of guidance and the competitive nature of the surfing community.
Van mentioned the expression 'no friends on a wet day' to describe the surfing culture, where surfers are often selfish and unwelcoming.
Van talked about the difficulty of surfing and the lack of willingness to share knowledge among surfers.
Van shared personal experiences of trying to learn to surf and the obstacles faced, including the need for persistence and time on task.
Van expressed a love-hate relationship with surfing, acknowledging its addictive nature but also the desire to control one's relationship with the ocean.
Van discussed the ultimate goal of combining a successful career with the freedom to surf, exemplified by figures like Bob Hurley.
Van compared surfing to other activities like snowboarding, highlighting the inconvenience and cost associated with surfing.
Van mentioned the experience of a girl named Sam who had a lighthearted goal of jumping on someone else's board and ended up enjoying surfing more than others.
Career and Purpose
Van discussed the struggle of finding purpose and meaning in life, emphasizing the importance of perseverance and the pursuit of one's passions.
Van shared personal experiences of moving to New York to find a career and the challenges faced in pursuing a career as a professional writer.
Van talked about the transition from writing to working as a fabricator for an artist named Tom Sachs and the discovery of a passion for video creation.
Van discussed the difficulty of making a living as a video creator and the ongoing struggle despite apparent success.
Van emphasized the necessity of struggle and difficulty in achieving purpose and meaning in life, contrasting it with the ease of activities like brushing teeth.
Van highlighted the importance of feedback and the impact of their work on others, as evidenced by comments and messages from viewers.
Van discussed the concept of 'your voids drive your values,' illustrating how personal voids can shape one's values and drive them towards certain pursuits.
Art and Creativity
Van discussed the definition of art according to Tolstoy, emphasizing the transfer of feelings from the artist to the consumer.
Van critiqued the contemporary art industry, suggesting it has become corrupted and focused more on form and commercial success than genuine artistic expression.
Van highlighted the importance of stand-up comedians as significant artists, citing their ability to evoke visceral reactions and their role in protecting freedom of speech.
Van shared insights from Tom Sachs on the importance of monetizing art without letting money compromise artistic integrity.
Van discussed the balance between pursuing art as a hobby versus a career, suggesting that some may find more fulfillment in having a conventional job and treating art as a hobby.
Van emphasized the need to love the creative process and the subject matter, even if the grind of producing art can be challenging.
Flow States and Mastery
Van discussed the concept of flow states, where individuals are fully immersed in the moment and perform at their best.
Van mentioned the book 'The Rise of Superman' by Stephen Kotler, which explores flow states and their application to various pursuits.
Van talked about the love athletes have for their sports, suggesting that surfers may have the most passion for their activity due to the continued engagement even after retirement.
Van discussed the idea of mastery and the benefits of engaging in physical tasks to temper ego and achieve a state of flow.
Transcription
Van Neistat
Persistence and time—it's like time on task is king. There's this expression in skiing: no friends on a powder day.
Michael Frampton
My guest in this episode is Van Neistat. Van is an artist. His chosen medium is videos. You can find him at The Spirited Man on YouTube and on Patreon. We discussed surfing, his frustrations with surfing, thoughts on improving surfing, surf culture, art, comedy, mastery, flow states, and more. Links to everything we talk about are in the show notes. So without further ado, I give you my conversation with Van.
Van Neistat
So we're rolling on everything.
Michael Frampton
Alright. Welcome to the show.
Van Neistat
Thank you for having me.
Michael Frampton
You and Tom made... One of the most concise and... inspiring videos about how to learn how to surf. What inspired you guys to make that?
Van Neistat
I think it's the agony of learning how to surf inspired it. And then Hurley, when they were owned by Nike, paid for it.
Michael Frampton
What did you learn from that process?
Van Neistat
Well, you know, I think it was like the video was an excuse to sort of unload all of the learning that I had done in my struggle to learn how to surf over, like—which I never learned—over the course of, like, many years, decades. And I think the film was just a way to articulate that phenomenon or that experience.
Michael Frampton
It's such a hard thing to articulate.
Van Neistat
Yeah, and you know, I think the thing about surfing is, like—maybe it's different now—but it feels like everything's a secret. Nobody wants to teach anybody anything. It's the most complicated activity that I've probably ever tried as far as, like, things that are supposedly fun. And the... everyone's very greedy and just wants the wave to themselves. And if you're not good enough, then... well, like there's this expression in skiing: no friends on a powder day. And that's what—I think the culture of surfing is to me—it's just like no friends on a wet day.
Michael Frampton
That's a great expression. That almost sums up the surfing culture in one sentence. And you've been inducted into it and confused by it, and you didn't like the initiation process. And you articulated it, hopefully well. And it's almost like—I think surfers purposely withhold information because they just want to make sure that you want it for the right reasons. You know what I mean? Like surfing is—it's incredibly hard.
Van Neistat
I don't know what you mean. What does that—what do you mean, the right reason? What are the right reasons?
Michael Frampton
That's a good question. I think—well, you see a lot of—well, because it's such a limited resource. You take, for example, Malibu First Point. Let's say there's one wave coming in every two minutes. Alright? So they might—there's more than that—let's say there's one really nice wave coming in every two minutes. Now, everyone—there's maybe a hundred people in the water. Do the math. There's not much actual surfing going on out there. Yeah. So most of the people out there want everyone else not to be there. So they don't make it easy for you because they want to be on that wave.
Van Neistat
Yes.
Michael Frampton
Exactly. In fact, if there was only ten people out, you'd still get the—you'd still have the same problem.
Van Neistat
What if there was two people out?
Michael Frampton
If there was two people out?
Van Neistat
And they were strangers.
Michael Frampton
I literally had this experience last week surfing here in New Zealand. I go down to one of my favorite breaks. And this is—I'm the only one there. I'm like—I was so happy. And then as soon as I paddle out, someone else paddles out. And there's two people, waves to go around. And this guy—he wanted every wave that I got. He just... he just wanted it for some reason. He didn't drop in on me, but he pretended to and made sure that—and he was catching his own waves—it's just... I don't know what it is about surfing and surfers. But you can have the nicest guy in the car park, and then as soon as he puts his wetsuit on and goes surfing—just a complete narcissist. I don't know what it is about surfing. I know what it is. It's free. It's just like spam emails. Like if emails cost 5 cents each, email would be so much better. But surfing is free, so... and it's super cool, and it has this whole, like, beautiful... like, status image to it. So everyone wants to be a part of it, and everyone wants to be able to say, "I went surfing this morning." And it's, you know, it's not like that, really. I mean, you know this. But I don't find it's like that in Mexico. In certain parts of Mexico, it's much more friendly. Like even for—what do you call them? Barneys or whatever—what do you call it?—kooks. Even for kooks like me. Like I lived in—at La Saladita for four months. And, you know, I was no good, but people were very friendly to me in the water and out of the water. I love surfers out of the water. You know, Malibu—I mean, I've never even bothered to try that. I've never even bothered to try that. I've never bothered to try surfing in Topanga at Topanga Beach. And I live in Topanga. You know, I pay taxes in Topanga. My kid goes to Topanga Montessori School. But I'm not getting in that. I'm not getting in there. No way. Because I think I just missed the window. I'd really like to make a movie—like a video—that's called Don't Surf. And just the whole, like—I really don't think you should—I don't think you should ride a motor—I don't think you should buy a motorcycle—like a shifter bike motorcycle—until you're at least 30 years old. I don't think you should start surfing past the age of, like, 14 years old. And there you go. We'll weed out some people. Like I made that How to Learn How to Surf movie as, like, a deterrent. Like that's the joke that we were all talking about. It's like, "God, hopefully this will get people to not want to surf." Because it was the absolute—we were in Bali. It wasn't huge. And we had Rizal Tanjung with us, who's like one of the greats. And we had lots of money and we had boats and resources. And it was still, like, kind of miserable for all of us because we were all below the 500-to-1000-hour, you know, steep climb slope of the learning curve. And, like, that was sort of the conclusion we came to with that movie, which is called How to Learn How to Surf. I mean, that was the big conclusion. We came up with, like, ten bullets of surfing—of learning how to surf. But I think the big conclusion is persistence and time. It's like time on task is king. I mean, sure, there are people who are super talented in everything. There are people with, like—that possess a natural talent. But... I mean, it's just—I don't think it's really negotiable because it's such a sophisticated activity. And that's another reason why it's such a bummer to—like, I've given up. Like, I'm not getting back in that water. Someone else is going to teach my son how to surf. Because I've, like—maybe not. Maybe I'll go back on it. Maybe—hopefully. But I don't have any interest of getting in that water. I don't like being wet, and I don't like being cold. And the thing about surfing is... unless your house—and this is how I lived when I was in La Saladita—unless the water is Caribbean warm, which I—and by which I mean above 85 degrees Fahrenheit—and the waves are, like, you walk down the stairs and 20 feet in front of you is the water that you're going to surf in—unless it's that, it's extremely inconvenient. All that sand and the wetsuits and the boards. And when you're new, the boards are gigantic, right? So you're carrying this canoe, and you're, like, knocking over things, and it goes on the top of your car, but it flaps if you don't strap it down right. And it's just—to hell with it. Like, no wonder snowboarding costs, like, $250 a day. Because snowboarding to me—or skiing at, like, a... like at the equivalent of, like, Padang, you know, Mammoth Mountain, or, you know, Blackcomb, or some world-class North American slope—it's serene and beautiful. And yeah, there's assholes, but guess what? I'm better than all those guys. So they can't keep up with me. And you can get solitude even on sort of... busy days. But it's an absolute fortune. A friend of mine who lives down the road calculated—he has two kids—he calculated for a weekend trip that... for the family, it was $4,000—American dollars. That's a lot of money. You can buy a Tacoma for that. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Van Neistat
So, I mean, that's sort of my tirade against surfing, but it's good. It bodes well for you guys who've earned it. I mean, you're right. I mean, you're right in a way.
Michael Frampton
Well, it's interesting you say, because what I got out of watching that movie was, it was the one girl, she got scared one time and then she ended up being the one who sort of had the most fun. Her goal was to jump on someone else's board, I think.
Van Neistat
Yeah, Sam.
Michael Frampton
So she had a more lighthearted goal and she ended up getting more out of it. Does she still surf?
Van Neistat
I think a little bit, but I mean, when you've been at it for 20 years, you're not going to want to start with like—I think I started the first time I ever tried to go surfing. I believe she does still surf. I don't know for sure. She's from Ireland.
Michael Frampton
When did you start?
Van Neistat
I started the first time I ever attempted it. And, like, I didn't even have—you know, I didn't even have—I thought wax was like something that was like an extra thing. I thought you could just—like with skis, you don't have to have wax on skis and they'll go down the hill. But the surfboard, you have to have wax. Like, I think the first time I went surfing, I didn't even—it was like a six-foot surfboard and I had, you know, and it had no wax on it. And it was in—I was in Florida, Jupiter Beach in Florida. And that was—I was 17 years old. And I tried, like, whatever, all day or something. That was the first time. And I think the last time I went surfing, I was probably maybe 44 or 45, something like that. And I just never had a whole, like, block of years where I was going every day for multiple hours. I did that for four months. I thought maybe I could get a—I thought maybe I could get a toehold in four months of treating it like a career. I'd wake up at seven and be out before the sunrise and be—and that break at—I'm goofy, so that break at La Saladita was just perfect for learners. Sometimes the waves were a minute long. They were so long and gentle and easy to catch and everything. And I, you know, I did it. And, you know, it takes a couple—like maybe I was there for four months—it takes about two months maybe for the body to get in the right shape. And then, you know, I was doing more challenging things, and then I didn't surf for a while. And I went to Indonesia and it was like all gone. It was all that knowledge. It was not like riding a bicycle. It was not like skiing or snowboarding. It was not like riding a motorcycle. It was just all gone, and I had no idea what I was doing. And it was amazing because... you know, there were all these pros and excellent surfers. This guy named Marlon—the community's so small, just name names—and you guys probably know who I'm talking about. This guy named Marlon, who was Rizal's friend. This guy named Punker Pat Towersy. There were a couple other guys in Bali. And they, like, throw the boards to everyone. And they know just by watching you put the board under your body in the water, they know how good you are at surfing. It's unbelievable. And, like, forget it. I'm just—it's—I'm too old and it's... I mean, how many guests have you had who are like, "Fuck surfing"? Have you ever had a guest who'd be like, "Thank you. Don't do it"?
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, people. Don't do it. They say that because they don't want—they say it from a selfish point of view. They don't want other people in the water because they love it. I think all surfers go through a stage of having a love-hate relationship with surfing. And I went through a stage where I think when you start to get good at surfing and you start to be able to surf lots of different conditions, it starts to become a little bit of an addiction and it starts to get in here. And then you find yourself—you're at work and you're just looking at—wishing you were surfing. Or you're at your partner's birthday party and all you can do is think about surfing. Or you miss someone's birthday party because the surf was good. And it's completely justifiable to you, and the other surfers around—they get it. But I think I've come to—I want to be in control of my relationship with the ocean, not the other way around. So I think when a lot of young surfers—the ocean's in control of them. They live their life on the forecast. And even if they can't go surfing, the fact that they know the surf is good just gets in there and it affects everything.
Van Neistat
Else—I mean, if I was good at it, it's all I would do. If I was good at it, it's all I would do. And I think it is a worthwhile life. If you spend a life and that's all you did—you didn't have a career, you didn't make lots of money, you didn't like—you... I think, I mean, easy for me to say, but living a different kind of life—I think it's worthy. Because I've seen people who do that. I've seen people who just—that's—they're dedicated and their life is spent in the ocean surfing every day. And they just kind of—everything else they figure out. It's kind of ancillary to that. And like you said, if the weather's good... I mean, the ultimate is to make a fortune. Like, is it John Hurley, the guy who founded Hurley? Is that his name? Bob Hurley.
Michael Frampton
Bob Hurley, that's correct.
Van Neistat
That's right. I sat next to him on the flight from Hong Kong to Bali. And if that is the ultimate, his life is the ultimate. Because he built his company up relatively quickly, cashed out, made a fortune, and now he can surf wherever he—you know, these guys, he had a whole... he had, like... a community of these guys that were kind of older and they were just—they went to some island. You would know what it is. I don't know the name of it, but they, like, rented the entire island. It was near Bali. And it was just, like, for—you know, you had to be like an expert surfer. But they just go all wherever the waves are good on the planet. And they know—you know, the surfers are like meteorologists. And then they would—and they all had money, and they were all—you know, had boards and all that stuff. And they would just go wherever it was. And to me, that's the ultimate, because you get both. You have all the security and you have all the... you know, you did the career and the money and you can provide for your family, and yet you get to live like—I don't know—those people to me are like almost religious.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I like what you said. And you're right. If surfing is that thing for you, do it. If surfing gives you meaning in life, then explore that for sure. So tell me, what gives you the most meaning in life?
Van Neistat
My gosh. You know, it's my family, I think. That's my purpose, is just to keep the family alive. And keep myself alive. That's really what it comes down to now.
Michael Frampton
Good answer. What is it that—obviously you're pursuing something else that's meaningful too—that is doing that?
Van Neistat
Yeah, you know, I moved to New York when I was 22 years old so that I could find a career. Find that thing. You know, we have this American—maybe it's not American, maybe it's Western—but we have, I think, especially in America, we have this, like, you can do your thing. You can, like, find your way. Purpose—like what you're set out to do. Like... be brave and mighty forces will come to your aid. And if you know... if you truly want something, the universe will conspire to see that you get it. And I think we have that romance. It's a fiction that we all believe. And I think that's kind of beautiful. And so that's the sort of the—that's what I went to with when I moved to New York. And I initially pursued a career being a professional writer. And I had a job at a children's science magazine at Scholastic Publishing, which had just published, like, the first two or three Harry Potter books. So they were swimming in money, and it was really easy to stay at that job without having to, like... you know, compete on that, like, hypercompetitive corporate level. And I just—I didn't like the actual task of writing. Like the everyday life of writing. I think I was not disciplined yet enough. And so... I went and worked for this artist named Tom Sachs, and he hired me as a fabricator, which is, like, the other thing that I love doing with my life. Like, being like... a handyman. And I love books and reading. And so... I bought a video camera. And I—because I had VHS tapes. And they had this iMac DV—came out in the year 2000—and it was a computer that only cost $1,200 or $1,300. And I think the iMacs still cost $1,300. But it was—it cost $1,300. So I could—I had enough money from my tax return to buy it. And then you—in order to digitize the home movies that were shot on VHS, that's an analog format—you had to put them into a digital format. So the cheapest way to do that was to buy a Sony video camera and then plug—they're called RCA cables—into the Sony video camera and record the VHS onto MiniDV tapes. And then you would take those tapes and import them into your hard drive, your 10-gigabyte hard drive of your iMac DV, and then you could edit video, man. And it was $1,300. And the cheapest system by which you could edit digital video at that time was a $40,000 machine—you know, a setup. It was... astonishing that I was able to take these home videos that my mom had shot in the '80s and cut all the mistakes out and cut all the, you know, uninteresting parts out. And then take, you know, 50 hours of footage or whatever and cut it down to an hour. And after—I had a video camera left over that I had used to do and digitize the VHS tapes. So I just really never stopped making little videos and editing them on my iMac. And, like, I'm still doing it. I mean, I was doing it this morning. I was doing it before you called. So, you know, that's my career that I discovered. And it's been very difficult. And it's very difficult to make a living at it. For everyone. And I'm—you know, I'm old at that. And that's the thing I'm persisting at, even though I kind of feel like it's always been a struggle. And I feel like I'm struggling now, even though by a lot of metrics, you would think that, "This guy's very successful," because I'm able to, like, sort of make a living at it. And I have a lot of subscribers and my videos consistently get a lot of views. But that's the vocation I chose. And that's—you know, that's what I do with my life. And a lot of—you know, it's beautiful. Because there's—you get feedback. You know that when it goes up on YouTube, there's the comments. And I have a Patreon page. You know, people—I have—they say, you know, they're very affected by it. And, like, people—it's, you know, it's a show about fixing things and making things, really. And then people, you know, say, "I took my toaster apart. I fixed my blah." And that's kind of—that's... that's great.
Michael Frampton
It is. It's interesting that you... you articulate it as a struggle still. Isn't it true for anything that's worthwhile? It's a struggle.
Van Neistat
Except brushing your teeth. Because people say anything worth doing is difficult or whatever. And then except brushing your teeth is worth doing. It's really easy.
Michael Frampton
But practically it is, but don't you find yourself rolling your eyes? I just try to brush my teeth. You think you're—
Van Neistat
Ready for that? Yeah. Ha. Brushed 'em today, but... 50-50. But no, yeah. I mean, that's what they say. I don't believe it. I don't know. I think to have purpose—and I think what's built into us is this need to struggle. Struggle is the correct word. I think it's just built into the human condition, and you're just kind of—you're miserable in a different way if you're not. You know, if you're not doing something that's difficult to do, if you don't have a difficult situation or something. I think it's like one of the—it's one of the things that... it's one of the left out things that... education kind of fails to teach you. It's like a necessary ingredient. Does that make sense?
Michael Frampton
It does. I think that's what your videos are teaching us. Because you articulate the struggle in the videos so well. Like it's... it's almost uncomfortable sometimes to watch. But then... the end of the video is like... amazing deep messages. Some of your 10-minute videos I come out of thinking, there's probably five books I don't need to read now. I don't know what they are.
Van Neistat
Great. That's great.
Michael Frampton
Like for Shelley.
Michael Frampton
Example, like the video Who Sets the Standard. I mean, yeah—about—I mean, all you need to do, like this simple fact—like in one—in a small section of the video, you're just talking about his dog. And look, his dog's just sitting there. I'm like, there's so many lessons in there. Just the sarcasm you can hear in your voice. You're basically saying, hey, if you can't look after your dog, you probably shouldn't own a dog. It's bad for the dog. Everyone around you has a bad experience. And just from this one section of that one video, I got all of that. Do you know what I mean? So I think what you're doing—there's just so much thought. And obviously you've been writing for a long time, and in some of your videos you actually even outline your process. It's like, this is how I made the video. And I've actually learned—because I've been someone who's been writing and thinking about storytelling and obviously the podcast—and one of your videos, you sort of outlaid your process. And it made—I'd read all these books about storytelling and producing and story arcs. And that one video I watched of yours sort of brought it all together. And just by you saying, "This is how I do it," all this other material that I've read just came together. And it actually—that was part of—I can't remember which one.
Van Neistat
Was the 30-minute... Are you talking about the 30-minute one?
Michael Frampton
That—exactly.
Van Neistat
Yeah. See, the reason I ask is because right now I'm in the process of trying to make new thumbnails and titles for, like, basically all of the video—like for the one-year anniversary of the channel. My ambition is to make new titles and thumbnails so that you—the title and thumbnail is like, "Yeah, this is the one about such and such." Because that's part of the YouTube process. It's very difficult, is how significant and how important the thumbnail and the title is. They say it's more important than the actual quality of the video. Interesting. As far as traffic is concerned. So I'm just wondering, by hearing you talk, am I able to remember—even though I made it—am I able to remember, what video is he talking about? And I think it's that one. It says, "What influence does..."
Michael Frampton
The narcissism one.
Van Neistat
Yes, Narcissism Versus Universality. That.
Michael Frampton
Video did my head in, because at the start of the video you're like... talking about what is the conflict of this video going to be? And then I thought, that's the conflict. And then you went on to, no, the conflict is about that. And I had to pause the video and think, is this like watching Inception, the movie? Like, what is this? I thought that was a really clever video. I still haven't even—I have to go back and watch that video again, because what you did in that video—I can't articulate it. It's so clever. But yes, that thing in there was in that video.
Van Neistat
Well, thank you very much for that. But I do—I want that all to—it's—that video is mathematically sound. Like, the way it's done is sound. The plot works. But I do worry that sometimes you get it.
Michael Frampton
Well, no, I'm over.
Van Neistat
I don't want to, like—I don't want to, like, get away from being entertaining. Because I think above all, that's really what you got to do on that platform. You have to be really entertaining. And, like, you know, insight or, like, if something makes you really think hard—I think that counts as entertaining. But...
Michael Frampton
Well, you do both. That's what I'm saying. That video—I only stopped it and thought about it because I'm a bit of an analytical nerd. When—if you watch that video all the way through—the message is clear.
Van Neistat
Okay, good.
Michael Frampton
I think the message is 100% clear, especially, like—and I think a lot of people don't even think about whether their video is narcissistic or universal or educational or self—you know. And the fact that you thought about it and made a video about that very thing and then resolved it at the end is so clever and so inspiring. Yes, YouTube videos should be entertaining. But I think you've lifted the medium up of YouTube videos to where now you're making YouTube videos that are not only entertaining and educational, but they're very artistic. You know what I mean? Like watching them, you get this... Like that video of Shelley—the feeling that I got after watching that video. That's what I remember.
Van Neistat
That's good. I mean, that's the goal. That's what keeps me going really is that—I hope that, you know, that people—you know, the core people, they've... I don't know. They've really connected with the work, you know. And that's—I think that's the real reason for the struggle. That's why it's this and not some other thing that's, like, easier or more lucrative or whatever. I think that's—yeah. Thank you. That's terrific to hear that.
Michael Frampton
'Cause I watched another one last night of—I see a lot of similarities between us because I've got friends who are artists and sometimes I feel like saying, it's just not art. Yeah. I've got a friend of mine—he put a bunch of clay on his head. And he got another friend of his to take a photo of it. And that was it. And I thought, well, yeah. And he did—like, he didn't even have an explanation as to why he did it. And it was just so poorly done. This guy—he sold these artworks and he's a famous artist and I just cannot work out why. Now, maybe some other...
Van Neistat
Does this artist live in Bali? Okay. Okay. Alright. Maybe this—okay.
Michael Frampton
Artist copied that artist. What was the quote from Tolstoy? Yeah, he basically said that art is a phenomenon by which... the creator transfers a feeling he or she once experienced onto the consumer of the art. And to define it like that, it's very loose. But it holds art to a standard. And I think what happened was with the modernist movement—you know, that started probably at the Armory Show, which I think was in 1909 in New York. And with the rise of the New York—I'm sorry—the United—well, New York, but the U.S. art industry, and World War II and modernization started. And—sorry—and, like, I think maybe Friedrich Nietzsche or... I think modernism was—allowed that to be pulled away from art. I think it was about—they made it more about the form. And then... you know, conceptual art... redefined what art could be. And then I think what ended up really happening was that it just became this extremely lucrative—it started in about 1995. If you look at a graph of contemporary art sales, that's when the hockey stick begins and it just skyrockets. It became this extremely lucrative, like, unregulated commodities market that was very easy to manipulate. There's a terrific... terrific book that was written by, I think, a Harvard economist. And it's called—I believe it's called The $12 Million Stuffed Shark. And it explains basically the economics of how the contemporary art—how the system works from the point of view of money. And I think that's why you're getting, you know, people with the clay on their heads and they sell a lot. It's like—it's about pedigree. It's about where you went to school—art school. And I kind of think that industry has become... basically corrupted. But... there are still great artists in there, and they do work within that system. And there's still wonderful pieces of art that, you know, transfer a feeling from the artist unto us. But, you know, I think that the, you know, the... I did a video called What Is Art? It was called Why Comedians Are the Most Important or Maybe Most Significant Artists of Our Time. Because, you know, according to Tolstoy's definition—that, you know, art is a medium by which, you know, feeling is transferred from the artist to the consumer—stand-up comics are like the mainline... artists. I mean, they're more artful than anyone. Because if it's not funny, it's not stand-up, you know? It's not comedy. It's like it has a visceral test, whereas everything else—I heard Andrew Schulz, who's a big comedian here, he said that, like, yeah, if you're an actor, you can fake everything, but you can't fake funny.
Michael Frampton
Yes. And stand-up comedians do more than just make you laugh. They make you think. They make you feel awkward sometimes. Anthony Jeselnik will just shock you with his rawness. I mean, stand-up comedians—I totally agree—they are so important.
Van Neistat
You know, on the border of the First Amendment in America, you know, they protect... they protect our freedom of speech, those guys. And they're very—especially right now—they're very important, because we've got a lot of funny business going on in America. And the comedians, for the most part, just aren't. They aren't—they're not scared. There's that amazing Bernie Mac—you remember Bernie Mac? He died a few years ago, but super funny guy. And he was filming a special at the Apollo. And the Apollo is in Harlem, and it's notorious for the audience being really hard on you. And Bernie Mac came out. And the audience clapped, and I think someone started to heckle him, and he goes, "I ain't scared of you motherfuckers." And that line made his career. And that brought the whole house down. They fucking loved him for that after. And that's who—as far as I can see—the real artist comedians, that's who they are, and they remain. Yeah, good. Yeah, I think some squeak through. I think there's some cowards, but I don't think you're one of the greats if you're a coward.
Michael Frampton
Point. Yeah, they're not scared. And if you are, you don't make it. Full stop.
Van Neistat
No way.
Michael Frampton
Well, as it may be part of their act—the... the cowardness—you still have to have the balls to stand up and be coward.
Van Neistat
Yeah, no. You have to get on—yeah. But I don't know.
Michael Frampton
Stage.
Van Neistat
I don't know. I think... I don't know.
Michael Frampton
Do you spend a lot of time with Tom Sachs?
Van Neistat
I haven't seen him in two years. I haven't seen him in a long time—since COVID, I think. Because I'm on the West Coast now and he's on the East Coast. And we get together sometimes when he's out here, you know, if I'm out there. But we're not—we haven't been working together since I started the channel. So I have spent a lot of time with him in the last 20 years, though.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, he's someone who's managed to become successful at a creative career. I mean, what's some of the lessons you learned from him in terms of that? I mean, I think you've already nailed the art thing—makes people feel—like you're doing art, that's my opinion. But I'm wondering what have you learned from—and so is Tom, he's doing art—but where Tom—I mean, you could, for example, you could be Tom Sachs creating these amazing pieces of art, but no one might ever see those pieces of art or buy them or anything. So there's more—like, he's got that side of things nailed too. What I'm wondering—what you learned in that aspect of art from him.
Van Neistat
My god. Well, some kind of reckless and crazy stuff, but it's just... I like that. It's still kind of true. He says—you know, I don't know if he still says this—but when he was, like, in his 30s, he would say, "You know, if you get a little success with your art, fucking get yourself in debt. Put your back against the wall so that you can... you can—you're just—you have no way out. You just have to, like, make your work get you out of the hole." And, like, man, I don't know. I think I've been in that hole too long. I think I've just been—you know, it's really—it’s taken a toll on me. It's taken a toll. I mean, I don't want to complain and be—you know, I'm very blessed and I—you know, I have a gift, and you know, I aim to give it away. And, you know, I'm very blessed. But it does. And, you know, I have a wonderful life and I live in a very beautiful place. And I'm free from—you know, all of my family is healthy and, you know, I have all of those major wonderful things. But, you know, as you click yourself up that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you start getting into, like, you know, being able to provide. And it's been... just from... forever. I haven't really—you know, I haven't really had a big break where I've been able to kind of live within my means. But, you know, it's not—that's not correct. It's more like I haven't... I've refused to live within my means. And... you know, I—I do. Call him. Okay. I'll tell you one thing recently that I learned from him. I did this Kickstarter campaign about a year ago, and I sent him—you know, you can—there's—you can do drafts of it. You, like, build it over the course of months. It's—and it's like a—it's like a Word document or something, and you can send it to people for them to review it. And so, before I launched it, I sent it to him and he was just like, "Ask for more money." He was just like, "All the prizes you're giving away, double the price." He said, "People just want to support you." He said, "Copy—" I can't remember her name. The Artist Is Present, that woman who sat in the museum and just, like, stared at you. Mila Jovovich—I don't know, she has—Mila Jovovich or something—I can't remember her name. She did a Kickstarter and she had a prize that was—that cost, like, $10,000 and it was nothing. That was the reward. And so Tom was like, "Do that." And I did, like, four of them. I did, like, a $5,000 one, a $10,000—I think they all sold. And I didn’t have—so little things like that. But it's only been very recently that he's—you know, that I've, like, asked him for business advice. And he mostly was my teacher on, like, how to make stuff and how to, like, pursue the... you know, honor of being called by others—by being called an artist. And so... but yeah, he's always been very good at monetizing and very good at not letting the money pollute what he was interested in and what he was building. Here to look at—you know, I think conventional wisdom from someone of my generation and your generation—from Generation X—I assume you're in your 40s.
Michael Frampton
And.
Van Neistat
Yes. Okay. So from our generation, you know, you... you look at someone who does a corporate partnership just instinctively. When we were kids, that was like—you know, Kurt Cobain never did shit like—I mean, he had all this stuff on MTV. So the illusion was that those guys never, like, sold out to corporations. And, you know, Sachs does stuff with Nike and Leatherman. But when you look really far into it, you realize, like, the shoe—sorry, pardon the pun—the shoe is on the other foot. Is that, like, no. Tom has had these interests in all of the resources that these corporations can provide him. And this is his opportunity to work with—you know, with the case of Nike, like, the most technically sophisticated clothing materials that exist. You know, with the case of NASA, like they have that—I can't—I think it's called aerogel. Do you know what this is? It's the least dense—I guess—molecule on the—in the universe maybe. And it's like what they—I think they use it for as a heat shield on the—on spacecrafts or something. And it's like—it's a solid, but it's transparent. Have you seen this stuff?
Michael Frampton
No.
Van Neistat
Like, Tom has it at his studio. It's unbelievable. And it's kind of strong and it's super heat resistant. Anyway, like... you know, he's been interested in materials and making blank out of blank material. And he's used all the resources available to him and all the resources he could wrangle, including... you know, big corporate resources. And yeah, I mean, he's the bee's knees as far as I'm concerned. He's a great—
Michael Frampton
Teacher. Well, I like what you said about as soon as you get money, you just... you know—well, like I think money—you get too comfortable, right?
Van Neistat
I mean, I don't know. It's terrible. It's terrible. I think maybe that's wrong. The other way is just better. Right now, I think the other way is better. I think it's better to go get a job. I'm serious. I think it's better to go get a corporation job. And then have the other stuff be your hobby. And maybe that's just grass is greener, but... don't know it is.
Michael Frampton
Because I—pressure makes diamonds and... I guess there's an... I mean, you can feel like that now, but look at what you're actually doing. You're doing The Spirited Man, and at the end of the week you're like, somehow it worked out. There has to be an element of faith. And there's somewhere.
Van Neistat
Fuck. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah. Yeah, it's an extreme element of faith. That's... you know, that's why some of us do it and some of us don't. But... it's just—it's very—I don't know. It's very difficult. And, you know, I have a younger brother who's extremely successful in this space. Granted, he's put in a lot more years in the YouTube space. This is my first year. I'm doing better than he did his first year. I'm doing extraordinarily well. But... you know, he's younger than me. Which—do you have brothers and sisters?
Michael Frampton
I have two younger sisters. Yeah.
Van Neistat
Okay. And so—and he's smarter and more driven. You know, he's a harder worker than me. And... is—I mean, he's retired. He's set for life. He did so well. And so, you know, we started out together. And so, you know, compare and despair. Fair enough. And, you know, you should only compare yourself to your past self. Fair enough. But, you know... you have speedometers out there, and you have tachometers, and you kind of can't help but, like... I mean, for me, I just see, well, if he did it, I can fucking do it. So... everybody just relax. You'll get your money. You'll get your money. Just relax. But yeah, I don't know. I'm at it pretty aggressively. And it's very strange because... there's this MasterClass that—I don't know if you know, I don't know if you have it in New Zealand—but it's like a subscription service and you can watch all these masterclasses by these true masters, like David Mamet and Margaret Atwood. Masters in their field. And I watched all the writer ones—just about all of the writer ones—and just about all of the filmmaker ones. And at a certain point, they all kind of say the same thing. It's that, like, it gets to—you know, there's a certain point where it's a grind. Where that's what you're doing. You're grinding it out. And the whole romance of when you were a kid—I'm going to be this professional so-and-so—is gone. And it's just where—I think that's the reason why you have to love it so much. Is because it's going to take so much, you know? And, you?
Michael Frampton
You don't have to love the grind, though, do.
Van Neistat
No, you don't have to love the grind, but you have to love the... the sport or whatever it is, like the—whatever the thing is you're doing, whatever it is. I don't know. For me, I don't even know. Yeah, it's just deterrence, man. Deterrence. Don't follow your dream. Laughs Don't pursue your passion. Get a job. And then have hobbies.
Michael Frampton
Some people work like that. I mean, let's be honest, the majority of people work like that. Otherwise, the world wouldn't be the way it is. Yeah. I mean, how else is the electricity going to work? Exactly. Unless someone goes to a job every day. Or how are you going to get the gasoline, right? Yeah. 10,000 people have to go to work on time every day in order for the gasoline pump to pump gasoline into your truck or whatever. Yeah, now that you put it like that, that's true.
Michael Frampton
Right? Exactly. And that's all so that you can make your YouTube videos.
Van Neistat
That's so true. Yeah, no, it's a blessing. It's absolutely—my, even my psychiatrist said that to me. He's like, "It's a blessing, man. Don't forget." And I'm like, "I know, you're right." It made me feel so much better. But you just have one of those days sometimes.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Well, in surfing, you spend most of your time—surfing big waves especially—you spend most of your time just paddling and getting half drowned and it's cold and it's like, why? Hours of just this struggle, and you just constantly go into the beach. Your mind is, "What are you doing?" But you just keep paddling out the back. And then you finally get an opportunity to catch a wave, and then you stuff it up, and you go back out again and you try again. And then all the... you catch a wave. And then time slows down and you have this magical ride and you go in. And you're like, "It was all worth it." For that 10 seconds I was riding a wave, there was hours of struggle, thousands of dollars into cars and surfboards and wetsuits, and it was just that one wave. And then it's almost like after that one wave, you're a different person.
Van Neistat
Yeah. Yeah, I don't have the "it was worth it" feeling.
Michael Frampton
No, not for surfing you don't. We already established that.
Van Neistat
No, I mean, not for my work either. Really? It's very strange. Yeah. And I mean, you know, I'm embarrassed to say this, but, you know, a genuine take on things is—I think, you know, I think that's what people want to hear. And, like, I don't know. When I finish these things, it's a combination of like—okay, so this is what Jerry Seinfeld said. You know, Jerry Seinfeld, I think, writes a joke every day. And he said his reward... is that he's finished. And that's sort of how I feel about it. I mean, I'm responsible to it. You know what I mean? And I understand that it's a blessing. And I do the work. And—but there's a very—it's very strange. There's not a, like—there isn't that "it's all worth it." It's not. It's just—I mean, the response from people is like, it's encouragement. It's like you have to go because there's other people—that other people are like... are benefiting from this or something. But, you know, now I've got my family dragged into this. You know what I mean? It's not just—you know what I mean.
Michael Frampton
I know. I'm not quite as neurotic as you, but I'm close. Fair enough. I'm so close. And I used to feel exactly like that.
Van Neistat
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
But man, if the feeling of finishing is enough, take it, man. And then when I tell you that watching that video about Shelly has inspired me to be a better human, I mean that quite literally. And I can see it in your eyes. There's a little—there was a moment there where you weren't quite so neurotic when I said that. And just take it, man, because you're uplifting the YouTube medium to the point where that video of Shelley is inspiring. Literally, it made that video—all of the Mark Manson books that I've read—that video made them make sense. And instead of me thinking about, "Remember when Mark Manson said that in book three?" I'm just thinking, "Shelly. He just kept his good-ass shit together."
Van Neistat
Yeah, he's—yeah.
Michael Frampton
A mensch, man. Do you know what? I learned that word. I mean, what a great word—mensch.
Van Neistat
That's a great word. Yeah, we're blessed. You know, in the West, we're very blessed with all of our resources and that we have this freedom to go and do this crazy thing. Stuff. And I think the whole world benefits from it. And maybe—I don't know—there's a neuroticism about, like, you know, giving your best, doing your best. I mean... that means you can barely do it, right? If you're doing your best, you can barely get it done, because that's what your best is. And when it's falling short, like as far as, you know, performance—let's put it that way—maybe it's... just what's going on. I've been doing this for 22 years, man.
Michael Frampton
So you're a professional surfer?
Van Neistat
No.
Michael Frampton
No?
Van Neistat
No.
Michael Frampton
God, no. No. I'm the... I didn't start surfing till I was 17. I'm—and I started surfing at a beach where there were no surfers. And then when I moved to Sydney in my late twenties, I finally was living in a community of other surfers and there were surf coaches and people that trained for surfing. And I was a personal trainer, and I scored a job in the gym training these surfers, a lot of them professionals. All of them had grown up in this deep surf culture. And the conversations I was having with these surfers—I was learning so much about surfing. And I thought, well, if I record these conversations, I know there's a lot of people like me that came to surfing late that are going to learn a lot from these conversations. And that’s what started the podcast. And that process has turned me—I'm 10 times the surfer I ever thought I would be because of how much I've learned from just going out and having those conversations and hiring coaches and just analyzing surfing to death and getting annoyed with it. And so that whole process has made me a better surfer. But it's like your voids drive your values, right? Have you heard that expression before?
Van Neistat
No. Your voids?
Michael Frampton
Drive your values. Drive your values. My nickname throughout school was Silent Mike. I didn't have the communication skills. I'm a white trash dairy farmer. You know? And then I started surfing, and I loved surfing so much, but I was terrible at it. I was horrible. And now fast-forward my life 20 years later—I literally have a podcast. I communicate things about something that I couldn't do 20 years ago.
Van Neistat
Is it.
Michael Frampton
So... yeah, I'm not a professional surfer at all. I guess I'm a professional surfing educator would be a way to—maybe—a coach. I think it's more than a coach when you sort of start sharing the oral tradition around surfing. As a coach, in some ways.
Van Neistat
Do you ride those big Fords behind you?
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Van Neistat
So can you ride those big giant waves? Like the big ones?
Michael Frampton
I've surfed some pretty big waves. Not like Jaws or Hawaii or anything you might see like that. But I've surfed some pretty solid waves—some scary ones. But you're not supposed to be interviewing me.
Van Neistat
Yeah, that's true. But we just met. I know. I mean, it's just to see... there's this cool shot in that—I stole, I didn’t shoot it—but of Rizal at Padang on a big day. I mean, it looked big to me—I don’t know. And it’s just so—there’s like hundreds of people in the lineup and he just gets it. And it’s, like, unbelievably beautiful. Just riding that wave, everybody getting out of his way. Yeah, I’ll never know what that feels like. But...
Michael Frampton
You don’t really want to either though, do you?
Van Neistat
I’d like to know what it feels like, but I don’t want to do the work that you have to pay in order to earn that... blessing. It feels like being in the moment. Yeah, I think that’s what it is—to summarize it. I think that’s where everyone does their best work, right? When they’re not distracted by the past or the future—they’re just in the moment. Yeah.
Van Neistat
Yeah, I don’t know that I experience that anymore.
Michael Frampton
I bet you do.
Van Neistat
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Seems to.
Van Neistat
Be the thing. The motor's always... you know? So I don't know—maybe occasionally. But yeah, I asked—yeah, there's this pop singer named Frank Ocean here in America. He's like a big famous singer. And I asked him once—I said, "What's it like to go out and there's 30,000 people all singing this along with you while you're singing to them?" And he didn't really have an answer for it. And I said, "Is it like a blackout?" He was like, "Yeah." It's like you don't even remember it. Thank you. Imagine being... Bruce Springsteen. Every night you're doing the biggest gig of your life, basically. Like 200 nights a year or more for 50 years. You go into a town somewhere, and 50,000 people from that region go in and have the fucking best—feel the best energy that they're going to feel all year. And then they go out into their community and they spread that energy around. And it's because you came and sang songs that you wrote, like in whatever state you were in when you wrote them—in extreme private, maybe on a bus or something. Nothing greater. There's nothing greater than that. That is unbelievable to me. Especially him—I mean, he's so energetic and still in shape and super strong, that man, you know? Still with, like—been with the same gal for decades. And he said in the beginning—up until Born to Run—he was doing these huge tours. Like... international tours... everything was cash, he said. It was cash. It was like bags of cash. You didn’t have a bank account and stuff. Like, holy crap. Imagine managing that.
Michael Frampton
I didn't know that. Is it on an interview of him?
Van Neistat
It's—he wrote—he has a memoir that just came out, and I listened to the book. Book—oh, it's either in the memoir that came out... like it didn't just come out, it probably came out in 2019 or 2018, something like that. I can't remember the name. I think it's called Born to Run or something like that. Either that or he did that podcast with Barack Obama. But I'm pretty sure it's in the memoir. And he reads the memoir, which is—my God—all day.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Do you listen to podcasts much?
Van Neistat
That's why I always have the—in some of my videos—I have the earbuds in. I'm listening to people talking. And this is an old tradition I heard, I think. I heard—not I think—I heard... Who's that? I think it was somebody like Noam Chomsky was talking about how blacksmiths in the 18th century in America—19th century—they would hire children to read them books while they were working. And tradesmen would do—it was like a practice that they would do. Because some of these—you know—they were super well—you know, they were thoughtful people and well-educated. And like, the podcast thing is like—I listen to them from basically... well, I only—I don't listen to them while I'm, like, editing—while I'm working, I guess. Unless I'm shooting, then I'll listen. If I'm shooting or doing something that's manual labor that my body can do without my brain interfering too much, I'm just listening to... to podcasts, you know.
Michael Frampton
I'm the same. If I'm doing something that doesn't require a certain amount of concentration, then I either listen to a podcast or music, or I just listen to the negative voice in my head—and I'd rather listen to a podcast.
Van Neistat
Yeah. Or a terrible song that I hate that's just stuck in my fucking head for a month that I cannot believe—that, like—that there isn't a drug for that. There is. There's gotta be a whole cocktail of drugs. But I have that super badly. I can't even—I don't want to tell you the songs, but they're like—over the last few weeks there have been songs that I've been waking up to, and it's just like, "No, this again? It's still going?" This week I have a good one that I like that's stuck in my head—and you might not know it—but it's called When I Paint My Masterpiece by Bob Dylan. Do you know this song? "Life's gonna be smooth like a rhapsody when I paint my masterpiece." Man, everything's going to be different when I paint my masterpiece. It's so good. Great.
Michael Frampton
At least you get profound. You get a profound song. You know, a song that often ends up in my head is by—do you remember a British children's program called Lamb Chop's?
Van Neistat
I've heard of this. There's—yeah.
Michael Frampton
A song. The Song That Doesn't End.
Van Neistat
No, I know that one. Now it's stuck in my head. Yeah, no, I know it. Yeah, I know that one. Ooh, that's like... My brother—my youngest brother, Dean Neistat—he was a jet pilot in Afghanistan and Iraq. And so they had to do all of this training in case they got—this interrogation training—in case they got captured, their plane went down and they got captured. And so he said that one of these—he could—it was classified to tell me the duration of this torture that he was subjected to, this training. But I think he was, like, in a box—like in a coffin—in like a... outside, under spotlights at night. And he couldn't tell me the duration because that was classified. But he said... for a very long time, on a loop, they were playing Yoko Ono. Kiss Kiss Kiss (Kiss Me Love). You know that song? "Kiss me love..." That’s basically the whole song. But it’s literally torture. The earworm.
Michael Frampton
Podcast is a great medium for that. It really is.
Van Neistat
Quiets the voices and replaces them with better, more intelligent voices.
Michael Frampton
Let’s see. The Spirited Man—those three words—why did you choose those three words?
Van Neistat
I stole them from Matthew B. Crawford, who wrote this book called Shop Class as Soulcraft. And Matthew B. Crawford has a PhD in philosophy. And he was, I think, from the University of Chicago—one of our... one of our top 25 great universities in America. And I believe he was, like, a consultant in a think tank. And he made—he's making very good money. But it was, like, driving him crazy. So he went and he rented this freezing-cold, no-heat basement—I think it might have been in Chicago or Pennsylvania, I can’t remember—and just started restoring old motorcycles. And he wrote this book about—basically about the... like, the intellectual value and the philosophical value of working with your hands. And he... talked about the contemporary cars—the new cars now—you bring them to a Mercedes dealer or whatever, and they plug all these computers into them. And then the computers... tell you what’s wrong with the car. Most people have no idea what any of that stuff means. It just gets printed out and there’s an invoice and you have to pay this much money and they’re going to do the maintenance and the fix. But Matthew Crawford said... “But the spirited man wants to know what's wrong,” and he wants to have an understanding. I’m not even paraphrasing, but it was this kind of idea—he wants to know what's wrong, and he wants to know... Essentially, the spirited man is the man who takes care of his own business. So he had that phrase, the spirited man, and it was about... I don't know. I just identified with it. I identified. I said, "My God, that’s me. That’s who I want to be. I want to be that person." And this guy is clearly a spirited man—Matthew B. Crawford—because he, like, works on these old BMW R-bikes. And... you know... I don’t know, there’s something to it. Those guys are the real deal. There’s—you know—that guy Greene, Robert Greene. He wrote The 48 Laws of Power, and he wrote this book called Mastery, the art of—he wrote another book called The Art of Seduction. He wrote this book called Mastery, and he said that, like, you know, a great way to sort of temper your ego is to do physical tasks that don’t give a shit what you think. Because either the damn engine’s going to start, or it’s not going to start. To sort of tamp down our—you know, the intellect, like, falls in love with itself. And, you know, he suggests that, and I... I don’t know. There’s something to that too. Maybe that’s when I get in my flow—is when I’m building or making something. There’s that—there’s a sweet spot. I think it’s at the, like, three-hour mark maybe.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, you’ve got to have the struggle to get into flow. Did you read The Rise of Superman?
Van Neistat
No.
Michael Frampton
Steven Kotler. Great book. Yeah, that’s all about flow states. And how to get into them and what they are, blah. Great book. Yeah, The Rise of Superman. It’s told through the stories of athletes, but it’s applicable to any pursuit.
Van Neistat
Which athletes do you think love their sport the most?
Michael Frampton
The ones that are the best.
Van Neistat
No—which sport? I’m sorry—which sport? I didn’t ask the question correctly. Which sport is most beloved by its athletes? Or is it just a wash?
Michael Frampton
I have to say surfing. Because surfing... surfing is only a sport for those who pursue it professionally. Otherwise, surfing’s not really a sport, is it? It’s more of an athletic endeavor, or an art form for some. I think surfing is only a sport when it’s paid professionals. You know, if there were no professional surfers, could you call it a sport?
Van Neistat
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
You could.
Van Neistat
Sure. Yeah. It doesn’t have to be professional in order to be a sport. Does it?
Michael Frampton
I don’t know. Things—with most sports—there’s an element of competition, is there not? Or scoring?
Van Neistat
Yeah, this is a good point. Yeah. Otherwise, then what is it? It’s just... just riding a wave. It’s just transportation.
Michael Frampton
So I see surfing more like music. I mean, the whole point of playing music is—if you’re playing music rather than listening—the whole point of playing a song is to play the song. It’s not to get to the end of the song.
Van Neistat
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
First. But there’s—that—there’s an audience and maybe—is it, right?
Van Neistat
Okay. See, I don’t play music.
Michael Frampton
Sometimes. Sometimes you just like playing by yourself.
Van Neistat
I make music! Like with a Minimoog synthesizer app on my phone. But I don’t play music. I just make it, you know, for the... for the show so I can save money.
Michael Frampton
You make the music on your show?
Van Neistat
Some. Lately I have been. For the last few weeks I have been, yeah. But normally Greg Gersten makes it. And he’s like a real musician. He’s terrific. He can pick up any instrument and just play anything. But yeah, I mean, I watch sports and some of these—like basketball—you watch these guys and you’re like, these guys love playing this game. Or baseball—those guys love playing that game. Like, I wonder if the hockey guys really like it. I have a friend who’s in the NHL. And to—how good you have to be in the NHL—I said, "Okay, in your elite league in Toronto, where you grew up—which is Canada’s biggest city and Canada is the best hockey country in the world—how many made it?" And he said, "Well, it was 900 of the greatest hockey players in the world—Canada." And he said, "I think four of us made it." Or maybe he was the only one or something like that. It’s that rare. And the legend is that he played for the New York Rangers and he retired from hockey—I think when he was playing for the New York Rangers. And the legend is he threw his skates into the Hudson River and never skated again until, like, a month ago. And then he started again. And now he’s doing, like—not tryouts for—but the camp for the Tampa Bay Lightning. And they won the Stanley Cup last year. But I talk—you know, I don’t know. It’s real. I don’t know. I don’t know who loves it the most. I guess surfers. Because they’re like—you don’t see old... or do you? I don’t know. You don’t really see, like, 65-year-old guys at the basketball. Maybe you do. But you definitely see them surfing. You definitely see them surfing.
Michael Frampton
Exactly. Like, if you retire from your professional sport and you continue doing that sport—that’s—I mean, that’s what surfers do. That’s not what NFL players do, do—
Van Neistat
They? Nope. NFL players—I think they hate it the most. I think that job sucks. You get so hurt. Yeah, that’s hard work that those guys do. Yeah, maybe it is surfers.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it could be. Van, thank you so much for your time. Folks listening, The Spirited Man on YouTube and The Spirited Man on Instagram as well.
Van Neistat
Yes, and Patreon. And Patreon. The Spirited Man, yes.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. I will put links to all of that in the show notes for those who are listening. And thank you so much for your—I want to push people towards your YouTube channel. I think there’s a lot for people—not just surfers—to learn, but humans to learn about being good humans. Your YouTube channel is not only entertaining and artistic—it’s deep, meaningful, and philosophical and educational. So please, folks, go and check out Van's YouTube channel. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a couple of friends.
Van Neistat
Time—yes. Thank you very much, Michael.
Michael Frampton
Let them know. Thanks.
72 VAN NEISTAT - The Spirited Surfer
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.