88 Sir John Kirwan
Is surfing your go-to for mental health… even though you only surf once a week? What happens when the waves are flat and your mind’s not?
In this soul-stirring episode, rugby legend and mental health advocate Sir John Kirwan shares his journey from elite athlete to mental wellness pioneer. From learning to surf without ego to overcoming crippling depression, JK reveals practical wisdom that applies to anyone—surfer or not—navigating the mental chaos of modern life.
Discover the 6 daily pillars of mental health Sir John lives by—and why one hobby isn’t enough
Learn how men can redefine masculinity through emotional expression, not suppression
Hear real-life strategies for balancing performance and purpose in both sport and daily life
Listen now to learn how to build a resilient, joyful life—on land or in the lineup—straight from a knighted legend who’s lived both extremes.
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Spotify link: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3xQJij9SiHjvVDTMDaNTId?si=50bda994356743b7
Apple Podcast link: https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000614408201
You Tube: https://youtu.be/1gjQ24vP5vE
Key Points
John Kirwan discussed the importance of building multiple mental health practices beyond a single activity like surfing, emphasizing the need to diversify activities to maintain mental well-being.
John Kirwan shared his journey transitioning from professional rugby to coaching and then into mental health advocacy, highlighting the challenges of career transitions for athletes.
John Kirwan elaborated on his coaching philosophy, which focused on providing opportunities for growth and emphasizing the importance of balancing winning with player development.
John Kirwan discussed his daily mental health practices, including the six pillars (move, chill, enjoy, connect, celebrate, and do), and the importance of integrating these practices into daily life.
John Kirwan spoke about the need to modernize the concept of masculinity, emphasizing vulnerability and emotional expression as essential aspects of mental health for men.
John Kirwan recommended learning about mental health early in life to prevent severe mental health crises, drawing from his personal experiences and the creation of his foundation Mighty.
John Kirwan introduced Groove, a SaaS product aimed at improving workplace mental health by empowering individuals and optimizing work environments, with a goal to reach 100 million people and save 100,000 lives.
John Kirwan advised parents to foster a love for sports in their children by allowing them to explore different activities and not pushing them into high-performance sports too early.
Outline
Surfing and Mental Health
John Kirwan discusses the importance of surfing as a mental health practice, emphasizing the need for multiple activities to maintain mental well-being
John shares personal experiences with surfing and how it has helped in managing mental health
The concept of 'flow' in surfing is highlighted as a valuable lesson for other aspects of life
Rugby vs. Surfing
John compares the challenges and enjoyment of rugby and surfing, noting that rugby became easier as a professional sport due to daily training
The unpredictability of surfing is contrasted with the structured nature of rugby
Transition from Athlete to Coach
John describes the challenges of transitioning from a professional athlete to a coach, including the need to start over and build new skills
The importance of mentorship and learning from experienced coaches is emphasized
Mentorship and Influence
John discusses the impact of various mentors on their life, including figures like Andy Hayden and John Hart
The role of mentorship in personal and professional growth is highlighted
Personal Mental Health Strategies
John outlines a daily mental health plan consisting of six pillars: move, chill, enjoy, connect, celebrate, and do
Specific activities like playing the guitar, reading, and cooking are mentioned as part of the mental health routine
Masculinity and Mental Health
John addresses the stereotypes associated with masculinity and the importance of vulnerability and emotional expression
The need for men to be open about their feelings and seek help when needed is emphasized
Environmental and Societal Change
John discusses the importance of individual action in addressing larger societal issues like environmental cleanup
The idea of leading by example and making personal changes to inspire others is highlighted
Groove and Mighty Initiatives
John introduces Groove and Mighty, initiatives aimed at improving mental health education and support
The Groove app and its features for workplace mental health are discussed
Parenting and Sports
John offers advice on fostering a love for sports in children without pressuring them
The importance of allowing children to explore different sports and find their own interests is emphasized
Transcription
John Kirwan
You know, there's a beautiful Māori saying. It says if you want to have hope and faith in the future, you must first stand on the shoulders of the past. Really interesting, I talk to a lot of surfers, right? And 99.9% of us are amateur surfers. And I say, you know, what do you do for your mental health? "No, I go surfing." When was the last time you surfed? "Two weeks ago," you know, when I've been out of surf for three weeks. So surfing was my mental health go-to. I'm in trouble, man. Right? So you need to build other things in your day. If surfing is what you do but you're only getting out once a week, that's not enough anymore. You've got to have two or three things in your day that's going to switch that brain off.
Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. That was a couple of quotes from my very special guest in today's episode, Sir John Kirwan. John is one of the greatest rugby players of all time, having played over 60 tests for the New Zealand All Blacks. After his incredible career as a professional athlete, he went on to have a very successful coaching career within the sport of rugby. And after his coaching career, he went into the mental health space in which he still works now. John has been a spokesperson for mental health here in New Zealand and has created a bunch of initiatives and products in that space which we discuss in this episode. In 2012, John was knighted Sir John Kirwan for his contribution to mental health and rugby. John is a long-time and still passionate surfer. This is a wide-ranging discussion. We talk about everything from surfing to mental health to professional athleticism and coaching, parenting, plus much more. So much wisdom in this episode. Please share this to any non-surfer who you might think will get a lot out of this. I give you my conversation with Sir John Kirwan. First of all, I mean, thank you for doing this. This is awesome. I appreciate that. And I grew up, you know, watching you play rugby and I've been, you know, obviously following your journey, my own struggles with mental health and the stigma, New Zealand stigma that came with it. And of course, you know, we are joined together by the art and sport of surfing, which is I'm sure dear to your heart as it is to mine and my listeners. What's harder? Surfing? Or rugby?
John Kirwan
That's a really interesting starting question. I had to give my ego away with my surfing, which was the hardest thing. So as a competitive rugby player, I would go out and I wouldn't be happy unless I surfed to a level that I wanted to. So that wasn't very good because I was coming out of the water and thinking, shit, I didn't surf very well today at my standards. Because I'm not a very good surfer, don't get me wrong, but sometimes I wasn't enjoying it because I was competing against myself, which was not the spiritual place I wanted to take my surfing. Right. It was... I have a competitive life, you know, business, rugby. I don't need another competition in my head. So that was probably the hardest thing. And then really the consistency of surfing as much as I did other things is always an ongoing challenge, right? So when you get to my age, if you don't stay in the water or get in the water, then things just get a whole lot harder, which then if you have that competitiveness in your head, you very rarely enjoy surfing. Right? So to keep the stoke going, to make sure that I love it, then I've had to change a wee bit.
Michael Frampton
How did you come to terms with that? Like what changed?
John Kirwan
You give your ego away. Right? So you stop listening to your ego. And often when I'm talking to myself — they say that's the first sign of insanity, by the way, but that's all good — I have some pretty cool conversations with myself, so I'm not too worried about it. But yeah, like you question why you're doing it. You know, I really laugh at people in the water that are, you know, just... I'm thinking they're Kelly Slater, that's what I say in my own head. They're paddling inside you, they're doing stuff. And I sort of go, well, are you getting out of this and going back to work? Or you're actually a full-time surfer trying to be world's best? What's the vibe you're trying to find? So for me, it was really saying to myself, why are you doing this? At what level is acceptable? And so it really took on a way more spiritual thing for me, you know?
Michael Frampton
So why you ask yourself that question — why are you doing this in terms of surfing — what's the answer? What do you mean by spirituality?
John Kirwan
Well, spirituality for me is being in the moment, realising that I am way smaller than most of us think we are. So I'm just a person who is like anyone else. So what the most important things in life are — living every day, being really aware of your environment. So for me, it's taking in the whole environment and, you know, making sure that I'm enjoying the moment, around a sea, nature, exercise. And then the feeling, the buzz, the stoke you get when you get a good wave is all part of my spirituality, right? So, you know, when I was really unwell and I didn't really want to be around much anymore, I had to rebuild my life into boxes. You know, what sort of husband do I want to be? What sort of father do I want to be? What sort of purpose do I want to have in life? So what's your job? And then what is my spirituality? You know, I was brought up a Catholic, and, you know, I don't believe in the Vatican. So, you know, where... What is my spirituality and how do I fill that cup? Right. And I think that it's really important to realize there is a bigger, a greater good than you. You know, we are not that important in this world. So how do we — how do you — live that on a daily basis?
Michael Frampton
What came first, rugby or surfing?
John Kirwan
I made that decision probably when I was 15. 13, 14, 15, I absolutely loved surfing. I had a mate of mine who's still an amazing surfer, a guy called Grant Kendall, who was always way better than me. But I just loved surfing and loved the feeling, and I was starting to look at surfing from a high-performance point of view. So, you know, how do you do better cutbacks? How do you do layback cutbacks? How do you get tubed all the time? And it probably wasn't a reality. I probably wasn't that good. But in my head, I was. And then I was starting to get opportunities playing rugby. So they were sort of my two sports. And I played every sport. I was a typical Kiwi kid. And so you've got to make a decision what you're going to commit to, right? And if you commit to surfing, the chances are probably a lot smaller of you making it. It's probably a better lifestyle choice than rugby, you know, but probably not a good financial decision. So for me, I was starting to make it in rugby and I had to commit to one sport. And so, you know, at the elite level, committing to that sport's really important. So, you know, you've got to commit totally. You can't... Very rarely do you see sort of cross-code athletes. Jeff Wilson was one. He managed to play when you had summer sports and winter sports. We don't have those anymore. We just have sport, I think. So yeah, that was a decision and probably the right one.
Michael Frampton
Is there any lessons from surfing that helped you in your rugby career?
John Kirwan
It's a really interesting question. I think flow was probably something that I always struggled... So if I tried too hard, then my natural ability wouldn't come out. So if I overthought things... And so I think in surfing, you know, you get into a flow and feeling that energy and understanding that energy would probably be the biggest lesson. Don't overthink it.
Michael Frampton
I'm assuming that rugby was similar to surfing in a way that, I mean, in surfing, you're dealing with the unknown, right? The ocean that can be random and unpredictable at times. And in rugby, of course, you've got the opposition. So I'm guessing that rugby was somewhat spiritual and really forced you to... This pressure of the game forces you to be present in the moment. But then as you got better and better at rugby, did it start to lose that sort of forcing you into the now? Because that's what I find with a lot of surfers. A lot of surfers come into surfing and it's very therapeutic because of that aspect. It's new, it's intense. And then as they start getting better, they get too comfortable and they start getting in their head and they lose that flow. Did that happen in rugby, and how did you deal with that?
John Kirwan
Yeah, I think every childhood dream of being an athlete in the sport that you choose is there's always a moment where it becomes your job, and all the pressures of actually the job and around it can take your energy, and you need to have a professional approach to it, which can take the joy out of it. And I think one of the skills of playing for a long time is finding that joy, possibly in what you've always found it in or in other things like, you know, the joy of winning, the joy of being the best athlete, the joy of being whatever. So for me, rugby was always way easier than surfing because I was training it every day. Right. So I'm spending three or four hours a day training it. So it got easier. Yeah. It got harder from a physical point of view and from a motivational point of view and from a, you know, from a sort of ability point of view, but it's easy. So you imagine right now, if I could put you into the perfect position, environment, and you can surf three hours a day. Right. Then you get out and you eat accordingly, and then you stretch accordingly, and then you visualize accordingly, and you plan accordingly for the next day. Then you go back and do another three hours. You know, there’d be a lot of us to be a lot better. You know what I mean? So once the game becomes your profession, then you've got to learn how you keep that enjoyment. And it's not an easy process. You know, I see a lot of young players go through this. You know, they've been really excited, you know, played it all their lives, have been really good at it. And then they get their first pro contract, and the first year is all awesome. Then the second year, well, this is getting harder, you know, and it continues to be a real discipline to stay at the top for a long time. That's why the average, you know, that's why the average lifespan of a professional sportsman at rugby is probably four to five years. I don't know what surfing.
Michael Frampton
I mean, Kelly Slater's destroying all of that stuff at the moment, isn’t he? He's still doing it.
John Kirwan
Is. Yeah, he was probably the first of the transitional athletes in surfing, you know. Diet, all those sort of training things. He was probably the first. And we're seeing a lot of athletes. LeBron James is 38. You know, you're seeing a lot more athletes playing till their 40s. So, you know, if you look after yourself, keep the enjoyment, keep the body right, keep the diet right. It's a pretty disciplined life though, you know what I mean? It's pretty tough.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. You mentioned the youth, which leads us into coaching. And you're a professional rugby player, and that's a rare thing in itself. But it's even more rare to see that level of athlete transition into coaching. What separates... You know, those two things. How did you, and what did you learn from that transition?
John Kirwan
I think my transition was a little bit forced on me because I didn't know what I was going to do, you know. Like, I'm a butcher, but I tried. I got to 35 and you think, I'm going to go back to butchering? You know, unskilled, never passed an exam in my life. So, you know, what else do I have? What else? Because the hard thing for athletes is, you know, and this is really important, I think the world is heading down a wrong pathway from a high-performance company sport and what success is, right? So we think success is the Kelly Slaters or maybe the top 10, but that's not true. So what happens with a lot of athletes is they commit themselves to their sport, and in a lot of sports, it's over by the time you're 30, 31, 32, right? But you don't have any other skills, but you are the best in the world, right? So you think about the top 100 surfers, right? How many of them would be paid enough to survive? Probably... twenty? And the other 80... are probably pretty damn good surfers, but they're going to have to find something else to supplement, right? With rugby, that pool's probably bigger, so you're probably looking at 360 professional sports people in New Zealand from a rugby playing point of view. But the hardest thing is that not a lot of them are going to earn enough to never work again, and you're going to have to commit yourself to your sport. So I wasn't dissimilar, right? And so I get to 35 and what am I good at? And I always wanted to be world's best at whatever I did. So if you look at your career, when you hang up your boots, what are your options to be world best? You always have to start again, and that's always hard. So you have to go back to being an apprentice when all your peers have been 15 years into a job. You know, they're either established in their life or whatever, they're doing what they've chosen, whereas you've got to start again, and that's really hard. So that put me into coaching. But then the first thing someone said to me was, if you're going to coach, what's your philosophy? Why do you want to do this? Right. And my philosophy was always to give the player the opportunity to grow like I did from a technical and mental point of view. So my coaching philosophy was to give everyone an opportunity to be better. And once I started concentrating on that, I really enjoyed seeing guys grow and, you know, really take opportunities and, you know, and some of them didn’t get it. So some of them would just think that it was about being a rugby player. But I was telling this story yesterday. So, you know, I'm a butcher from Māngere. I played probably my third game for Auckland and I'm in the aftermatch function, and Andy Haden says to me — may he rest in peace — he says, "JK, you're going to talk to that guy over there." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "You're going to talk to that guy over there." I said, "Mate, I'm not going to talk to that guy over there. I'm not going to talk to that guy over there." It was Prime Minister Muldoon. "What?" And he said, "Well, if you don't, you're not playing next week." And I said, "Piss off, mate. Like, you're the captain. You don't decide who plays next week." So he called John Hart, the coach, over and he said to Hartie, "If JK doesn't go and talk to the Prime Minister, he's not playing next week. That's right, Hartie?" And Hartie goes, "Yeah, that's right." So I go and talk to the Prime Minister. I am dying, man. I'm dying inside. I do not want to go over and talk to the Prime Minister. And the Prime Minister was really good. "Hey, JK, I followed your last three games. You're doing really well." So he put me at ease. But I remember coming back down, just chatting to Andy Haden, and he said, "You know, rugby is an opportunity for you to meet amazing people, JK. And you don't know who in this room might help you." Right. So I just got into the habit of just going over and he said, "Ask people questions. People love talking about themselves." So, you know, I would go and mix and mingle with people. Right. And so I thought that was a part. You know, rugby has always been a springboard to life, to opportunity, to meeting people. And that's not just about being a great rugby player. Like, that's actually the easy part. The hard part is improving yourself as a human, connecting with other people, finding out all sorts of different things, and then looking for different opportunities. So, and some of the people I'd coach would not get that. So they just thought it was just about the game and being the best rugby player they could be. And others would, and they’d take opportunities and look at it differently and really grow. Most of those have gone into coaching or management or gone on to do businesses.
Michael Frampton
So we're kind of on the subject of mentors and icons. And then there's that holistic aspect as well, because you as a coach, if you have to choose between two equally talented players on the field, you're more likely to choose the one who's actually pretty good at managing the team, his emotions, and good with, you know, as a team player and good with relationships.
John Kirwan
Yeah, I mean, it comes down... Actually, you've got to be really careful because... Yeah, I think the managing emotions and controlling what's happening on the field, for sure. But I have selected better rugby players for the moment than someone who is not as good a rugby player but way more balanced. You know, you've got to balance that with winning.
Michael Frampton
So.
John Kirwan
You've got to balance that up, and you've got to create an opportunity for people to grow, but you're still coaching and trying to win a football game. Right. So you've got to be careful you don't mix those two up, because otherwise you'll... The key ingredient here is the vehicle, which is rugby, right? And rugby is the most important vehicle. And then you build an environment where people can grow and get better, but that's their choice, not yours. Your job is to pick rugby players to win. Now, someone like me has a philosophy that better people make better rugby players, and it's our responsibility as a game to show that pathway. But around, you know, normally those that can cope with pressure off the field will perform better on it. So then it becomes a whole, but you've got to be careful you don't put that first.
Michael Frampton
And then, so Andy Haden was obviously a mentor and an icon for you growing up within the game and probably outside off the field as well. Is there anyone else who fits that mold and how have they influenced you as a whole?
John Kirwan
Yes, I went so early in your career, you get older people telling you to get a mentor and, you know, get someone to bounce off. And I think that's incredibly good advice. But once I put my life into boxes. Right. So if you think about those boxes that I spoke about before — husband, partner, father, work, spirituality — then what I tried to do was put people into those boxes, you know? So I think I was really fortunate. So probably husband and father, my dad was really influential, and even my father-in-law, the way that he was as a father. And so I looked at those people and thought, how do I want to be as a person and as a father and as a husband? And then obviously the relationship thing's another discussion. Then I think, you know, from a work point of view, you know, John Hart was very influential in my early career as a rugby coach. You know, he was very influential. I had Andy Haden, some of the elders. There's a beautiful Māori saying that says, "If you want to have hope and faith in the future, you must first stand on the shoulders of the past." And I think rugby is really important in that structure — that the elders need to take the responsibility seriously but need to lean in and help and teach. So I was really fortunate when we had strong teachers, backseat leadership, and I'm pretty sure it's still the same in rugby. So around rugby that was really good. There was a guy called Andrea Buonomo. He was a Frenchman. He coached me in Italy and he brought the art and philosophy side to rugby for me. So being more of an artist and a painter, and your canvas is the rugby field. Right. So he was really good for me from a rugby spirituality point of view. So that was really cool. And then I've had a few people come into my life and help me around the business side of things. So, you know, at the moment, my co-founder has been amazing for me. I've been on this really crazy journey in a startup business for five years. And a guy called Kevin Roberts before that was a CEO of Lion Nathan and Saatchi & Saatchi. I'd always bounce ideas off him and he'd always give me really good business advice. So that was in that. And then in the spirituality stuff, it was really a lot of actually reading and trying to understand, you know, spirituality and what that is. You know, it's such a big word and trying to personalize what that is for me. So yeah, once I sorted those mentors out in those boxes, it was pretty easy to go to those people for the right reasons.
Michael Frampton
And that's such a wise way to approach it — to have different mentors in different aspects of life. And that truly does allow you to stick to that Māori saying of standing on the shoulders of giants or ancestors, etc. What about in terms of like your personal psychology and your own mental health — was there any standout mentors in that regard?
John Kirwan
I think the woman that probably saved my life and changed my life was, you know, was probably the most important thing. When I was incredibly unwell with my mental health, I had to go and see a psychiatrist. And for me, the learning around — so going from surviving to thriving — learning a daily mental health plan, learning tools and techniques to keep myself incredibly well mentally. And her name was Dr. Louise Armstrong. And so, you know, she was probably just doing her job. But for me, doing her job — for me — she was world-class and world-changing. So it changed my philosophy. And she understood me and gave me the right tools to approach it properly. So, and that completely changed my life. So I have a really solid daily mental health plan. I follow the six pillars, which at the time, I didn't know I was building, right? I didn't understand what I was really doing. I was just trying to get well. And I think, you know, people say, "Well, why is your mental health so important?" And I sort of go, "Well, you know, I'm a better husband. I'm a better father. I'm a better workmate. I'm a better friend." So it's pretty important to put first, you know what I mean? So for me, those things were really important from a mental health point of view. And they still keep me in really good stead at the moment, you know, which is really cool.
Michael Frampton
So can you describe some of those tools?
John Kirwan
Yes, the six pillars are move, chill, enjoy, connect — which I think is a really important one — celebrate, and do. So I do those things every single day. And they're just really practical things. You know, for example, "do" is how are you always growing mentally and challenging and doing something new? And at the moment, it's learning to read music and play the guitar, right? Which I'm shit at, but it's something that takes me out of this world that I'm in and, you know, I lose myself. I have a monkey brain. So that's something that’s really important to understand when you're talking about your mental health — is how does your mind work, right? So I've got a ruminating mind. So my mind never stops. And part of the issue with the ruminating mind is you can't sit still. All right. And so for me, I'm an active relaxer. So for example, I just call my ruminating mind Bob the Monkey, right? And I need to put Bob the Monkey in his cage, and he needs to have a banana. Surfing does that. Obviously, surfing’s two birds with one stone, so that's the move as well, right? So I get to move and be physical and switch off my brain and connect with nature. So there's probably three birds with one stone actually, you know. So yeah. So I think, for me, playing the guitar is a "do" but switches off my brain. Reading is another thing that really relaxes my mind. And cooking. Cooking is two birds with one stone because... My wife loves me cooking. So there are other things. But for example, having a shower and feeling the water is really important. Having a cup of coffee and not taking my cell phone as a date — because it’s a shit date. It's a shit date having a cup of coffee, because before you know it, you’ve finished your coffee, you haven’t tasted it. So... Sometimes I take my phone on my coffee date when I might be working and stuff and I need to do shit, but normally I don't take it on my coffee date. So, you know, for example, today, you know, I got up, I had a shower — beautiful shower — felt the water. Really started my day well. Went downstairs, had a coffee, and then read the news. So I do read the news on my phone because you don't get a newspaper anymore. But I love that because part of my mental health is — I’ve got a dumb shark, right? Because I never passed an exam. And so I have a dumb shark. So I love reading and improving my knowledge. So I do that, you know. So already I've got two of my things in the bank, right? Later today, I'll probably find some time to play an hour of guitar. I'll read before I go to sleep. I do a lot of breathing. So all of a sudden, I just integrate those things into my day.
Michael Frampton
I think a lot of people get caught up in — they think mental health or their own psychology is a thinking process. And they end up, they read books, they get into talk therapy. And of course, that can be an important part of it. But what you're iterating here — and what I think needs to really get through to people — is doing the work is about doing it. It's a doing thing. Literally sit down and play the guitar. That's so important that people make that transition. Having the knowledge of looking after your mental health is not enough. You've actually got to do the things that you learn, and it's a doing thing, and that's what allows us to get out of our heads essentially.
John Kirwan
Yeah, look, I think I totally agree. So here at Groove, you know, we talk about DOT — Do One Thing today. You need to build your plan and you need to try stuff. You know, I totally agree with — read all the books you like, read all the books. I read a lot of books about well-being, and I try shit, right? But I don’t think it should or... will work. And if it does work, it stays within my plan. So I think understanding how your mind works and then understanding what keeps your energy levels up. So we've got no more brain capacity, man. Is your inbox ever empty? People don't have work-life balance anymore. There's just life. So we need to be more active in actually switching off our brains and doing things that are going to keep our energy up. So, you know, once upon a time — I talk about my dad — you know, my dad drove home from work every single night, nothing followed him home. You know, he'd listen to 1ZB on the way home and get home and have dinner, fall asleep in front of the TV, and get up the next day and do it all. And nothing followed him on the weekend. You know, now people are catching up on emails or they sit down to have a cup of coffee and they're looking at social media or whatever. And I'm cool with that. I don't give a toss what you do. But you've got to give the brain a break, right? And that break needs to come around whatever suits you. Might be puzzles, might be knitting, might be... You know, really interesting — I talk to a lot of surfers, right? And 99.9% of us are amateur surfers. And I say, "You know, what do you do for your mental health?" "I go surfing." "When was the last time you surfed?" "Two weeks ago." You know. And I haven’t had a surf. I went to the beach last weekend, didn’t get a surf, and I haven’t had a surf for three weeks. So if surfing was my mental health go-to, I'm in trouble, man. Right?
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
John Kirwan
So you need to build other things in your day. For example, my move pillar — you know, when I'm training now, I'm trying to train for my pop-up and trying to train for surfing. But it’s still my movement. I'm doing more training for surfing than I am surfing, right? So you've got to be really careful that you just don't have one thing in your bucket. If surfing is what you do, but you're only getting out once a week, that's not enough anymore. You've got to have two or three things in your day that's going to switch that brain off.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's good advice for the surfers out there because often it is for surfers, it is surfing. And yeah, we just don't get to go every day often. So you've got to have something to... that you do daily. That's great advice.
John Kirwan
Yeah. Yeah. And look, mate, it can be down that, you know, I bought a, you know, a wobble board that helps my balance, you know? So, and that's a bit of fun, you know? So you can put things in the day so that next time you do go surfing, you're, you know, at least you've done some work towards it. But for me, you know, I absolutely love surfing, but I love playing the guitar now. Right. I love lying there and reading a book, you know, so that's pretty cool. I prefer to go swimming, but hey. We live in New Zealand, man. You know, like been on shores for 10 days.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Yep. I get that. So within the mental health space, as you know, young boys and young men are suffering a lot. And... I think what goes hand in hand with that maybe is often the misinformation and sometimes the bad rhetoric that goes around the word masculinity is. And I've heard you speak on that topic before. I'm wondering if you could speak to that word masculinity a little bit and help us sort of to... accept and modernize it a little bit.
John Kirwan
So I think you need to add masculinity and stereotyping, you know? So... I think it's getting better, but I probably grew up in a rugby, racing, and beer environment, you know, like... not my dad's fault, he's an amazing father, but we never hugged or kissed, we just shook hands. There was no emotion. Right. And there's two really important emotions that a male needs to have. One is to cry. And the other one is to have anger, but know what to do with it. So if you keep suppressing your anger, it's going to be as bad as suppressing your tears. Right. So a lot of us grew up lacking two really important emotions that we didn't know what to do with. So, you know, I think the most important thing is vulnerability. And we got brought up that to be vulnerable is weakness, but it's actually a superpower, right? And so you grow up with a perception and that's why sportspeople, musicians, politicians, people in leadership roles need to be living and owning the space, right? Because I think the perception of what a male is, is bullshit. Right? We don't actually have a real positive role model around some of those emotions publicly, you know, and I think for us, masculinity is what, you know? I used to say to my kids, as males, if you fall over, you know, you need to try and be tough. But if your soul's hurting, cry, man. You know, that was the best way that I could try and explain it. And I think, you know, when kids are growing up, it's okay to be angry. You know, it's not "don't show anger," which is probably how a lot of us got brought up. It's actually, "You're angry, go and do something positive with it." Or "Why are you angry?" You know, try and work out those emotions and get that anger out straight away in a positive way. And then, you know, you can move on from that anger instead of putting it down like this. And then you go to a pub on a Friday night and after the fourth beer, you can feel the tension, right? New Zealand pubs aren't nice places to be sometimes because you can feel that male.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Yeah, it's a... it's a lot that needs to change and it is changing and it's awesome that you're helping to lead that way. All that stuff you just said is... it's easier said than done though.
John Kirwan
Yeah, I have a saying. "If it's meant to be, it's up to me." You know? You want to change the environment, bro? No one's going to change it for you. You've got to do it. You want to change the mental health of men, you've got to change it. And you've got to do it in your own home, with yourself. You know, because I think society is getting us to look outside for the solutions. Right. But that creates a shitload of stress. So in the near future, how do you think we're going on our ocean cleanup and plastics?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, not so great.
John Kirwan
Yeah, right. So I can sit there and stress about that. And I can throw some rocks from other people, or I can stop buying plastics, and I can start picking up plastics when I'm walking around the place, or I can start doing stuff that I can control. Does two things. You know, if we all did that, the world would change. Right? Including the CEOs of some of these big polluting companies. And secondly, I can control my stress, you know? Now when it rains, man, you know what I think about? Global warming. I didn’t think about that five years ago. It was just raining, man. You know what I'm saying? And that sometimes can lead to you worrying about your future and the future of our kids and all that sort of stuff. But the only way I can change it is actually by changing me. So, you know, if it's meant to be, it's up to me. And I just challenge every male to just be looking into those things and seeing where they can get better and how we can help our youth by living better examples. You know, you spoke about mentors and leadership a little while ago. I need to live those things for the next generation rather than talk about them.
Michael Frampton
You mentioned the word vulnerability, and I think for a lot of men that sort of... is the cringe factor. And often it's perceived as vulnerability. "Well, I'm not going to cry in front of the missus."
John Kirwan
That's what your mission is. You know, get over yourselves, fellas. Right. If you think toughness around this space has got anything to do with being a great partner or a great friend — wrong pathway, brother — because your wife or partner actually wants you to cry and actually wants you to be vulnerable. That's called love, bro. That's called love. Complete and openness and giving yourself to a person, you know? And I think males worry about the trust bit, right? So "What will she or he or them think of me?" You know, if they go and tell someone else — we’ve got to get over that shit as well. Right. That's really quickly. You'll know who your friends are. And if someone betrays your trust, you know, they're not your friend and you move on pretty quick. Rather than wait till a crisis and then you find out that they're not really your friend. Yeah. You know, we just need to move on really quick. Life's moving really fast. We don't have time for any of us to be thinking, "Is this the right or wrong thing to do?" Vulnerability is the only thing that males need to do better right now, today. And if you don't believe me, anyone who's listening — go and ask your wife or your partner or your kid. They'll tell you.
Michael Frampton
If you could go back and give your 25-year-old self one piece of advice, what would it be?
John Kirwan
Learn about mental health so that you don't want to jump out of a window.
Michael Frampton
What would that learning platform look like? Would it be a book?
John Kirwan
I don't know. They weren't around back in my day. So some of the things I'm trying to do with my life now is get those things out there. I have a foundation called Mitey. We have a curriculum in primary schools to educate our students — some Mitey key — around mental health. But yeah, I think if I had a better understanding of it, I think if I had the tools that I've got today, my 25-year-old self would have been having so much more fun.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Thank you. Tell us about Groove. Groove now.
John Kirwan
Both Mitey and Groove were created out of failure, basically. So I woke up five years ago, and I'd failed. I've been the face of mental health in our country for 15 years, man. And 11 years ago, 12 years ago, together with the government, we created depression.org.nz, which was the first ever online self-help tool. And it won awards all around the world. But I woke up five years ago. What happened was... Government continued to spend money on the advertising, but not on the tech. So. We didn't spend money on the tech, and obviously I gave my image to the government for nothing — and happy to do so and continue to do so if they need it. I woke up five years ago and looked at our suicide rate. It was going the wrong way. On the same piece of paper there was... we are going to put mental health into the legislation. So it's like physical health and safety is now mental health and safety. Right. So failure doesn't really scare me. And I looked at myself and said, well, what do I need to do differently? If we keep looking at the same problem with the same head, then we're going to continue to have the same problems. So for me it was really simple. My reference to mental health was One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, right? So I thought if I reached out, I was going to get locked up — Jack Nicholson and Chief, the big American. So raised $250,000 and facilitated for one year. Psychiatrists, psychologists, teachers, headmasters. And what we came up with was four things really. We need a mental health curriculum that's like English, maths, and science. So then I raised another $250,000 and commissioned the University of Auckland. I should say "we," because it's not just me. We raised $250,000 and another $250,000. And got a curriculum built. Secondly, don't put any pressure on the schools — primary schools. So we have teachers that go into those schools and upskill the school around the curriculum. The third thing is — must be co-designed. So what might work in Māngere is not going to work in Gisborne, not going to work in Invercargill — so make sure you co-design this. And then the fourth thing, which is probably an aside but really important, is that it needs to start in primary school because it's too late by the time they get to secondary school. That was one thing. And then the second thing was I believe if the world's going to change around the environment around mental health, business is going to do it. I think government — it's not their fault, a lot of really cool people — but they're just moving too slow and they get too caught up in bureaucracy to actually move as fast as the world needs us right now. So what would depression.org look like on steroids, man? What would it look like if we had to spend the same amount of money on tech? And so I was really lucky — I met my co-founder and our goal is to reach 100 million people and save 100,000 lives. We've created a SaaS product that goes into the workplace, that empowers the individual to look after their own mental health, lifts the leaders about how to discuss and talk about this stuff, and then optimizes the environment. So that's for-profit. And we think that if you do that in your business, then your people will work better, be more productive, and so they're the two things that occupy most of my life.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. So you, so that's the Groove app, right?
John Kirwan
Yeah, the Groove app. So, I mean, obviously you've got to be in primary schools to get Mitey, but yeah, you can download the Groove app. It's still free here in our country, but we have a workplace product. So we have a SaaS product for the workplace that if your workplace wants to implement, you know. For me, it's preventative. So we don't want to push any more people off the cliff. So what we teach people is how you just put this on the agenda, how you talk about it, how you look after yourself around the six pillars — and they'll be all different for everybody, right? And then how a leader can — because we don't want the leaders to be the psychiatrist or the psychologist. We just want them to lead it, right? Yeah. And so we do a lot of sort of leadership stuff around how you can build a psychological safety work environment. And psychological safety, for me, is pretty simple. It's just trust and care. And what that looks like. And the other thing that's really important to realize is we've got to do our jobs too, you know? Like it's really important for people that you feel proud about the job that you're doing. And so for me, a really good and important part of my mental health is working well. I like to be working, I like to be achieving my work goals, I like to be busy, and those things are really important. And so we talk about performance care — how do you get performance and care and mould those two together?
Michael Frampton
Well, from the corporate perspective, I mean, you probably know McKinsey did that massive study. And when you're in flow, you're so much more efficient. And in order to get into the flow state, you have to be looking after your mental health. Simple as that. And I had, I mean, I had a good look through the Groove app and I commend you on what you've done. It's incredible. I was blessed enough to — you know, I took up marriage counseling and therapy a long time ago and I lived in LA and there's a different culture there. If you don't have a therapist in LA, you're strange. So all of those tools I learned through one-on-one with a therapist, and now going through the Groove app and your stuff, it's all the same tools that are there and it's now accessible to anyone here. So that's awesome. And I think, like you said, you know, the most important thing is... is just get the information, but just try things, you know. Try things, put things in your day that are actually for your mental health. We do so much more. You know, I always laugh about... you know? Should we be a vegan? You know, should we be... you know, you get all the stuff pushed at you, sort of, you know, you don't know what the next diet is going to be. So there's all these things around, you know, and I don't care what you eat, man. That's your life. You know what I'm saying? But is it Julio or bloody Julio? Vegan or vegetarian or, you know, you get all this information pushed to you about your diet, right? And that's cool. I mean, I love all that stuff. But in the end, you just get confused and have a glass of wine and a pack of chips. You know what I'm saying? But I'm joking. But you know, the reality is that we need to do the same for our mental health. Everyone needs to investigate and have a look into how you're going to be your best mental self. Right. And so for me, you know, going into the Groove app, learning about stuff — you know, there'll be stuff in there about vulnerability. If you want to have a conversation, there's some tools you can use in there. And it's really just the start of people just building that daily mental health plan, you know.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, it's — I encourage people to download it. And it's... is it available internationally?
John Kirwan
It will be very shortly. Yeah, it's available in Australia, but it will be available internationally. Yeah, we've got some big stuff coming up. So hopefully by August, a lot more people will be able to get it.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. Yeah, we've got a lot of listeners in California. So keep your eye out for that.
John Kirwan
I've never surfed California. I've been there a couple of times, but probably not enough. Your crowd sort of... those crowds sort of scare me a wee bit. Every time I see some of those beaches, it's like, whoop. Yep.
Michael Frampton
Yep.
John Kirwan
It's not as if...
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I mean the swell there is so consistent and it's actually not too hard to beat the crowds. You drive around the corner to an unknown break. It's almost like the California coast — almost every aspect of the coastline is surfable. It's not like New Zealand where it's, you know, you've got these rugged corners and everything. It's just, there's so many places to surf in California. It is paradise in a way.
John Kirwan
I'd love to go, man. I'd love to go surfing over there. I must do that bucket list stuff.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's a must. The water's warm. It's always sunny. Yeah, I was living in Malibu for about four years.
John Kirwan
Okay, cool.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, it's a beautiful part of the world. Yeah, the crowds are there, but you know, like I said, it's easy to escape and it's certainly not as... you know, there's crowds here too.
John Kirwan
What's that? You only need one wave. That's what I always say to my son. The good thing about surfing is you only need one good wave.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Does your son surf?
John Kirwan
Yeah. Well, my son... yeah, my little one — well, he's not that little anymore. He's 23. He's still surfing because he lives here. My second son's a professional football player. So he doesn't surf. Because he lives in Italy. So he hasn't surfed probably for about five or six years now. But yeah, my little one's still surfing.
Michael Frampton
Cool. And there's a lot of surfers listening that are fathers and mothers that really want their kids to surf. And I've seen it go... I've seen parents pressure their kids too much and it, you know, it lights up the contrarian part of the kid's brain and they don't want to surf for that reason. Any advice to those parents? And how to foster that love for the ocean or guide it?
John Kirwan
Yeah, I think I always remember that if you watch your kids grow up, especially around water, they have a natural... fear? And sometimes you need to hold their hand and go past that fear. Sometimes they'll do it themselves and they might get knocked over. It's really interesting. You watch a kid — a kid will go into their ankle, go into their knees, go a bit deeper. You know, the rare ones get out there and want to do it straight away. But most people, it's a gradual thing. And I don't think you can push that. Or you need to help those moments out. I think sometimes the stoke that we get, right? And the reason why we want our kids to surf is for that stoke. But the stoke might be different for everybody. Often I talk about the emotions that they're having, not what you want them to have. So, for example, you know... How good did you feel? Do you feel a bit tired after swimming? Because that's the best bit of air in the world. Right. And often you go to the beach — why do you have a really good sleep in the afternoon? Because you just had the best oxygen intake ever, you know. So I think that if you encourage people around how you're feeling... But every child will come to what they want. And I think you've got to be careful of the high performance stuff. I watch a lot. And I was watching a program the other day, actually about surfing — you know, it's on Netflix or bloody Apple TV — The Final Cut or something like that. And what is interesting is the relationships... of the adults around the parents that push their kids. Now, they might be successful, but it's really clunky, and they have to make peace at some time. So, you know, I was a professional athlete. And I took the philosophy that sport is the most amazing thing you can have in your life — for the whole of your life. Some sports you can't do for life, others you can, right? But I think it's a really fundamental part of your life. It creates friends, it creates, you know, environments that you go into that are really special. So I think, you know, sport is... people need to do. But my kids — none of them play rugby. My daughter was a volleyballer, my second son's a soccer player, and my little one is a rower. And so you go, well... as long as they have sport in their life, it might not be the sport that you want. But it's really important. You know, a lot of parents talk about resilience and stuff. You know, sport's the greatest... teacher of resilience, you know? And you think about this — what is your surf limit from a size point of view?
Michael Frampton
Me? Yeah, triple overhead.
John Kirwan
Yeah, right. Well, I would never go out in triple overhead. You know, I'm a four to six foot at the most, and getting less and less now that I'm not surfing as much. Because you go out in six foot surf, man, you can't be pissing around with that. You go out in triple overhead — that's a different world, right? And kids are no different, you know? So in triple overhead, I bet you some of those crowds thin out. You know what I mean? Every surfer has his comfortable zone, and kids are different. And if you push them past that zone, sometimes they'll thank you for it. Sometimes they'll... hate you for it. As parents, you've got to be really aware that it's a tough one. Parenting is not easy.
Michael Frampton
No, it certainly isn't. But no, that's good advice.
John Kirwan
Yeah, well, that's part of the journey. A child only knows love.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, or talking about how they feel and fostering what they want. That's great advice. And yeah, keep it simple.
John Kirwan
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You'll know if they're into it. My son — middle son — never ever picked up a rugby ball. He had a soccer ball at his feet at the age of... yeah. You know.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I've got three boys and they're all soccer mad. And so, yeah. And in terms of — they're all surf as well — they're not so into surfing, but I was always just making sure that they enjoy the beach environment. And then they saw me surf and then they naturally just found it themselves.
John Kirwan
Yeah, look, I think I'm anti, you know, high performance at a young age. You know, I think a kid should play everything. You know, I was really lucky — played tennis, played cricket, played softball, played rugby, surfed, swam, you know — and then you can choose later on. Right. A child will naturally go to where he wants to be his best. So you give them all those opportunities, they might end up being a polo player or whatever. But if you don't give them the opportunity to swim or... all those things, then they don’t. So wide range of sports, I think, is great for kids. If they want to try different stuff, go for it. To be the best in the world will take a special... dedication to the sport, and you've got to have a love for it, I reckon, to come through the other end.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And it's actually true. Like the science proves that too. You shouldn't specialize until you're in your late teens — The Sports Gene book, all that’s all in that book. So yeah. John, thank you so much for your time. I respect your time there. It's just coming up to the hour now, but I will put links to all of the stuff that you mentioned in the show notes. Right. Thanks, John.
John Kirwan
Okay, take it easy. See you.
Michael Frampton
Bye. Thank you so much for tuning into the show. Please share this episode with a friend or two. And if you have time, it'd be great if you could give us a rating and a review on the app that you're using. If you're interested in learning more about mental health, and more specifically your own personal mental health and how to apply it to your life — that’s what I'm doing: online life coaching. You can learn more about that and book in at surfmastery.com. The next episode will be with a surfing photographer. So stay tuned and keep surfing.
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