059: DAVID LEE SCALES - Surf Splendor Podcast Founder/Host
SHOW NOTES
Has modern surf culture lost its soul—and does anyone still care about competitive surfing?
In this candid and unfiltered conversation, Michael sits down with Surf Splendor host David Lee Scales to explore the complicated relationship surfers have with their craft, how the WSL is failing to engage real surfers, and why wave pools and soft tops are both saving and ruining the game.
Hear why many core surfers are disconnected from pro competitions—and what media outlets are getting right.
Learn how experimenting with different boards (even gliders and mid-lengths) can reignite your stoke and sharpen your skills.
Understand the psychological and cultural shifts shaping today’s surf scene—from entitlement in the lineup to creative burnout.
Hit play to hear how surfing, media, and culture collide—and why your next wave might start with a mindset shift, not a better board.
David Lee Scales founded Surf Splendor in 2013 to bringing long-form, in-depth interviews to the surf community. Since then, Surf Splendor has become the world's most downloaded surf podcast. Listenership is diverse and worldwide. Interview subjects include writers, publishers, surfboard shapers, photographers, filmmakers, and surf industry experts across various disciplines. David and I discuss all thing surfing. Surf Podcasting, surf etiquette , surf politics, WSL, surfboards..
Website: https://surfsplendorpodcast.com/
Podcasts:
surf splendor - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/surf-splendor/id677929014
https://open.spotify.com/show/2d3rHRlbqw8JjNeXRYLNWD?si=4702753495db422d
the grit - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-grit-with-chas-smith/id1336643980
https://open.spotify.com/show/678537eYOwL6kqdsh2KVvn?si=6e92833ffbdc4ed1
spit - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spit-surf-podcast/id1250225635
https://open.spotify.com/show/4siJyxHisQET5T4aBQQLG3?si=ef700ad3a4d84864
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/surfsplendor/?hl=en
You Tube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKnQvHULQJRlkJ5F0BJER8A
Key Points
David Lee Scales discussed his podcast network, Surf Splendor, and its various shows, emphasizing the importance of subscribing to them.
David shared his preference for tequila over vodka in drinks, highlighting his taste preferences.
David revealed that he has never lived outside a 10-mile radius from his birthplace in Long Beach, California, despite recognizing the benefits of living abroad.
David described his most rugged trip, a humanitarian mission to India in 2003, which involved visiting impoverished areas and dealing with harsh living conditions.
Michael and David discussed the concept of happiness and how it is not necessarily correlated with material wealth or comfort, drawing from their experiences in different socio-economic environments.
David explained his perspective on white guilt, stating that while he recognizes his privilege, he does not feel guilt about it and instead focuses on using his resources to help others.
David shared his initial surf experiences, starting with bodyboarding and bodysurfing, and eventually standing up on a surfboard at age 12.
David discussed his current relationship with surfing, noting that it has become more professional and less romantic, with a focus on the podcast and other professional obligations.
David compared the surf culture in Southern California to that in Australia, highlighting the differences in aggression and localism.
David and Michael discussed the importance of reading waves and the role of attention to detail in surfing, drawing from their experiences and conversations with professional surfers like Tom Carroll.
Outline
David Lee Scales' Background and Surfing History
David Lee Scales was born in Long Beach, California at Long Beach Memorial Hospital.
They have lived their entire life within a 10-mile radius of where they were born, never having moved far from their hometown.
David started surfing around age 12 when their grandmother bought them a used surfboard from a garage sale.
They began standing up on waves and bodyboarding but didn't fully identify as a surfer until high school around age 14-15.
At that point, they started reading surf magazines, dressing like a surfer, and making efforts to get to the beach when the waves were good.
David's early surfing experiences were primarily in Baja California, Mexico, where their family had a property.
They would take monthly trips there to surf a left point break and beach break near Rosarito.
David's Current Relationship with Surfing
David describes their current relationship with surfing as primarily professional rather than passionate or romantic.
As the host of surf-related podcasts, much of their engagement with surfing now revolves around discussing it rather than doing it.
They find that their professional obligations related to surfing have deprioritized the actual act of surfing in their life.
David says they now need waves to be at least head-high and good quality to be motivated to surf.
They are less interested in surfing mediocre waves than they used to be.
However, they note that their relationship with surfing has evolved to be deeper and more meaningful in some ways, even if less passionate.
David sees surfing now as more of a therapeutic reprieve from other aspects of life rather than the top priority.
Characteristics of Great Surfers
When asked about common traits among great surfers they have met, David suggests it relates more to artistic expression than pure athleticism or intelligence.
They believe there's an element of being attuned to the ocean and living in the present moment that top surfers possess.
David notes that many great surfers they have known aren't necessarily intelligent in conventional ways, but have a savant-like talent in the water.
They describe it as an ability to be present in a 'Buddhist meditative way' and allow muscle memory to take over.
David also mentions pattern recognition, creativity, and attention to fine details as key skills that separate top surfers.
Wave Pools and the Future of Surfing
David discusses the potential for wave pools to recreate famous breaks like Pipeline in the future.
They believe the technology will likely be developed, but the financial viability of such projects is still uncertain.
David notes that current wave pool business models rely on scarcity and high prices, which may not be sustainable if many are built.
They see potential in artificial reefs to improve existing beach breaks, but acknowledge there are few financial incentives to build them since the ocean can't be privatized.
Overall, David is open to surfing in wave pools but sees them as a different experience than ocean surfing.
David's Preferred Surfboards
When asked what two boards they would choose if limited to only two in Southern California, David selects a 6'10" mid-length twin-fin from Morning of the Earth Surfboards, shaped by Simon Jones.
David describes this board as a versatile 'game changer' that works well in a wide range of conditions.
They also select a 12-foot Dave Parmenter PSV (Paddle Surf Vehicle) glider/prone paddleboard.
David says this board has opened their eyes to surfing waves and conditions they never would have considered before.
They note that these two boards give them versatility to surf everything from 1-foot to 10+ foot waves.
David appreciates how the mid-length allows for a different style of surfing that can still be very high-performance in the right hands.
Critique of World Surf League (WSL)
David is critical of the WSL's current approach, believing they have 'lost the plot' by trying to sanitize surfing and make it too predictable.
They argue the WSL should embrace the unpredictability and raw elements of surfing culture rather than trying to make it palatable for a mainstream audience.
David suggests the WSL should focus on catering to core surf fans who would pay to watch the top surfers compete in prime conditions.
They believe the WSL's investment in wave pool technology has further pushed them away from what makes surfing exciting and unique.
David also criticizes the WSL's lack of leadership and direction during the COVID-19 pandemic, noting they have failed to produce content or events while individual surfers have continued to engage audiences.
Transcription
Michael Frampton
My guest for today's episode is David Lee Scales from the Surf Splendor Podcast Network. David started the Surf Splendor Podcast back in 2013, and he's been interviewing a bunch of surf celebrities, influencers, shapers, etc. since then, and all of those long-form interviews are available at the surfsplendorpodcast.com or, of course, on iTunes. David co-hosts and produces Spit Podcast with Scott Bass and The Grit Podcast with Chaz Smith. I have provided links to all of those shows in the show notes to this episode. The first 25 minutes of this audio had to use the backup audio, which isn't too bad, but it does get better from then on. Please go and subscribe to David's podcast, the Surf Splendor, Spit, and The Grit Podcast on YouTube as well. David has a YouTube channel—again, that is in the show notes. Please enjoy my conversation with David.
David Lee Scales
Very comfy because I've got a cocktail in my hand.
Michael Frampton
Yes.
David Lee Scales
That's the key. Yeah. Cheers. Can you reach? Yeah, I can. The…
Michael Frampton
Reach. Cheers. Moscow Mule with tequila. Mexico City Mule.
David Lee Scales
Borough Mule. And it's—what time is it? Three o'clock by now?
Michael Frampton
2:41.
David Lee Scales
Perfect. I think that's fine. All right. I don't feel bad about it. Refreshing.
Michael Frampton
It's my drink of choice.
David Lee Scales
With tequila, though?
Michael Frampton
And I prefer vodka. Especially the Ocean—have you tried the Ocean Vodka from—
David Lee Scales
Hawaii? Was that the bottle that you just—? Yeah, I've never even seen that. I prefer… I never prefer vodka in any drink.
Michael Frampton
Okay.
David Lee Scales
Why? If there's a tonic, I'd rather go gin and tonic. If you do a dirty martini, I prefer gin in that, too. This, I prefer tequila over vodka. I don't know why. I just feel like vodka is neutral, and it doesn't add anything.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. That's why we use it.
David Lee Scales
That might be why people like it.
Michael Frampton
Exactly. You can add plenty of vodka, and you don't even know.
David Lee Scales
See, I like the flavor of tequila. So I don't love the smokiness of mezcal. I don't mind if it's mixed into a drink, but if I'm just going to do, like, a straight tequila or mezcal, I'd rather do tequila, for sure. Okay. But you're quite the bartender. This turned out nice. Yeah, it's pretty. So you actually prepare questions?
Michael Frampton
Kind of. Just a couple of things to remind me, in case I… Do you not prepare questions?
David Lee Scales
I do, but they're digital. I never have a piece of paper in front of me.
Michael Frampton
I'm old school.
David Lee Scales
Yeah, you are. Except for this audio setup. Yeah, this is the most new-school thing I've ever seen.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's pretty good. It does the trick. It's kind of surreal listening to your voice through such nice equipment, as well. The other stuff I've got is not quite as—
David Lee Scales
It’s normally in the vehicle?
Michael Frampton
These microphones are so sensitive. I don't know if you can tell.
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, they are. Yeah. But it's all good. So let's start from the beginning. Where were you born?
David Lee Scales
I was born in the same hospital that Dane Reynolds and Brett Simpson were born in. So the three greats in surfing, you know. Which is Long Beach Memorial.
Michael Frampton
Okay.
David Lee Scales
So, Long Beach, California. Yeah, not far from here.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And you haven't—you still live close to there?
David Lee Scales
Dude, I'm actually embarrassed to admit this, for some reason. I've never lived outside of a 10-mile radius. And the embarrassment is, I know that my world would expand and improve philosophically, theoretically, and practically if I actually lived—certainly abroad—but anywhere else, you know, just outside my comfort zone, basically. So just by virtue of circumstance, I've never moved. And my family's all local still and all of that. So I've never… I've always had gainful employment. Let's be honest, Southern California is a good place to live. So that's why I've never moved. But despite those things, like I said, I think that my life would improve by having some adversity and being outside my comfort zone, you know?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, but you've traveled. You seem like you're someone who's traveled the world a little.
David Lee Scales
That's the excuse I tell myself, too. I'm like, well, you know, if I can live in Southern California and have a Southern California income, then I can afford to go see these places I want to see. But let's get real—even then, I'm not outside of my comfort zone. I'm going places on my own terms and staying in places with air conditioning and linens on the bed, you know? Running water. And so I'm able to absorb some of the cultural aspects of those trips, but again, never getting outside my comfort zone.
Michael Frampton
So what's the most rugged surf trip you've ever done?
David Lee Scales
I haven't really… I mean, Baja—I've done, like, plenty of Baja kind of camping trips. So those are somewhat rugged. But—and I've grown up going to Baja my whole life. I went once a month for the first probably 20 years of my life. We had a family property down there that certainly wasn't fancy by any means, but then we would do trips from that place to camp and do other stuff. But my most rugged trip wasn't actually a surf trip. I did a trip to India with my church in 2003 that was pretty rugged. And, like, to, you know, very impoverished places, visiting orphanages. And that was certainly, like, well outside my comfort zone—no running water and dealing with, you know, stomach issues that you have when you're not eating clean meals. Exactly, yeah. So that was pretty rugged but enjoyed it.
Michael Frampton
Which city in—
David Lee Scales
India? Dude, it was Kathmandu, Nepal, is where we flew in and out of. Wow. So Nepal and India. But then India was just none of the big cities that anybody would have heard of. It's the northern state—I think it's called Bihar. And the little town or village that we were in was called Raksha. So, super remote. There was, like, a leper colony. I mean, very kind of non-western, you know? Yeah. Non-developed.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I've been out to—and made the effort to go out into the slums when I was in Mumbai in India, just to see, you know, how people live. And it's a pretty harsh reality check.
David Lee Scales
What were you doing in Mumbai?
Michael Frampton
We were just traveling through, actually. It was a stopover, but we decided to stay for a couple of nights and just went out to—just took a tuk-tuk out into some, you know, people literally living under tarps and cardboard boxes and…
David Lee Scales
With no—Parkour. Yeah, with no, you know, obviously plumbing or waste management or anything like that. So they're living in waste with no access to clean food and water and stuff like that. It's pretty—yeah, it's gnarly.
Michael Frampton
It is, but what's even—what amazed me was how happy and friendly those people are. That's what was amazing.
David Lee Scales
Isn't that interesting? I mean, we're sitting in a fairly affluent area right now, and your neighbors are no more happy than those people are that you're talking about now. Happiness has nothing to do with those things. Yeah. It's almost an inverse correlation.
Michael Frampton
I would say—I’d say my neighbors smile less. It's uncanny, yeah.
David Lee Scales
Weird, right? It is. What's the takeaway from that? How do you read—how do you adjust your perspective and lifestyle to be able to have the comforts and the mindset?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, acceptance is the word that comes to mind. You just accept that—I mean, you have control over certain things, and you're not in control of certain things in life, but being born who you are is not one of those things. You know, I'm lucky to be born as a privileged white man living in a first-world country. So I might as well make the most of that. And I guess if you're a underprivileged Indian child born in the slums of India, you just have to—there's nothing you can do about that, so you might as well make the most of it. And I guess that's—that attitude is deeply rooted in Eastern philosophy, right? So there's that.
David Lee Scales
Do you feel guilt for the position you were born into?
Michael Frampton
Guilt? No. Okay. No. Definitely.
David Lee Scales
Not—I mean, that—clearly that is a—white guilt is a common, you know, term that we're using nowadays, so…
Michael Frampton
But do people actually feel white guilt, or do they just portray?
David Lee Scales
I think that they maybe didn't feel it innately, but considering other people's plight, they now—you know, people telling them that they should feel white guilt—maybe they now feel it projected onto them and kind of take that on as their own plight. I don't feel the guilt, you know what I mean? Like, I'm fully—I was raised to be sympathetic of other people, whatever—if it was a kid being bullied on the schoolyard or whatever, like, I was made—I was raised to feel sympathetic towards that person and try to help and all that. So that's—I recognize my privilege that I was born into and all of those things, and I try to use it—to use my resources to help people when I can, but I don't feel guilt about it. Because like you said, you're born into what you're born into, and good, bad, indifferent, like it is—you have no responsibility in that.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, guilt is frivolous no matter what, right? You just have to accept—I mean, you better—if you're a white, average white man born in a first-world country, white guilt is almost the worst thing you could have. The best thing would be to use it to your advantage and give money to charity, for sure—but so, yeah.
David Lee Scales
So I do—along those lines, I do—my girlfriend and I have younger siblings, and so we kind of always—we're always commiserating about that, you know? Like, "God, they disappointed me," or "I want the best for them in these ways," or "They need to learn how to use punctuation in a text message," or whatever. And part of it is exactly what you just said—is we look at our parents, and certainly our grandparents, as having come out of depression—the Depression era—and having had to work for every single thing that they've had. And our parents sent us to college and paid for college, and it's like if we don't now live our best lives—and that means finding—pursuing professional success and fulfillment, physical and mental wellness and health, you know? Like we're blessed with good genetics. If we sit on the sofa eating chips and never get exercise, that's not honoring our parents, you know? Like we're the tip of the spear, where all these people that came before us did all of this hard work for us to now really thrive. And if we choose to not work in a fulfilling career, to not kind of live our healthiest, longest—most longevity out of our life, get the most years out of our life and all that sort of stuff, then we're failing them. We owe this to them, you know? That's part of our responsibility. Yeah. So there's no guilt about where we were born into or the fact that we have it easier than our parents. There's an honor that we owe our parents. What about it? Go for it. Let's do it. I mean I do—I experience shame. Yes, I'll totally—for—no, I don't feel shame about that. I experience the emotion of shame in my life. But as it relates to being a privileged white male, no, I don't feel any shame about that.
When I was about 12 years old—so I lived about 20 to 30 minutes inland—I lived in a couple of different places, but let's say 20 or 30 minutes from, like, a surfable beach—and I spent my whole life from my youngest memories going to the beach. So playing in the water, and then bodyboarding and bodysurfing and all that sort of stuff. And then my grandmother, who's kind of the matriarch—my parents got divorced early, spent plenty of time with both of them—but my mother's mother, my grandmother, was kind of the matriarch of the family, and so we'd spend summers—she'd babysit during the summer, and she came home with a surfboard from Hawk Surfboards in Huntington Beach. He was a local manufacturer—I have no idea where he's at now—but at that time he was—I saw a lot of those Hawk Surfboards around. And she came home with a surfboard from a garage sale that was just a used ‘80s, very—I know the board well now, and now it fits into my context of surfboard evolution, so I can identify it as maybe like mid-‘80s. It was a tri-fin, real thick, short. And my cousin that I was really close to, he and I took that down and started standing up on it. Those were my kind of initial surf experiences. And, you know, I certainly didn't identify as being, like, a surfer or anything like that, but that was just part of our world, as was Little League Baseball and everything else that we were doing. And by the time I got into high school, where you really start carving out an identity as an individual, that's when I think it really kind of sunk in—that, like, I am a surfer, and I read surfing magazines, I'm going to start dressing a certain way, and grow my hair out a certain way, and make an effort to get to the beach when the waves are good, and all that sort of stuff. So I'd say I stood up on waves when I was 12, and really kind of took hold by the time I was 14 or 15 or something like that.
Yeah, I'd say hooked initially—I mean, from that ninth-grade kind of high school era. Do—it had to be Baja, because like I said, my family had a property down there, so—and it was on the beach. And people would know the spot if I—it's just north—it's like south of Rosarito, north of K38, this little community called Popatla. And there's a left kind of a—the development is on a point, and so there's a left off one side of the point that's like a rock—almost like a point break. And then on the other side of the point it goes into a sand bay, so there's a beach break there. And we had surfed or bodysurfed and bodyboarded that beach break all through my childhood, and once we kind of got into surfing, made our way over to that left point break. But because it broke in front of a cliff and on the rocks and stuff like that, there was a little bit of a danger element to it, so we kind of had to work our way up to that. But that was certainly—at a certain point in my youth that felt like going to Mexico was fun—now it's a surf trip. This is a once-a-month thing that I look forward to that is like an international surf trip, you know? And yeah, that was great. Some of the greatest memories of my life doing that—it was like we had free reign. It was a gated community, so my cousins and I would just have free reign. Once we got there we could, like, go to the cantina, get our own food, get our own drinks, go surf all day, you know, endlessly, and get fish tacos, and just had full reign. It was amazing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I agree. No, I get—what about shame? So there's one—okay, there's no guilt. What about shame being a privileged white man? Good.
Michael Frampton
Good, okay. So you're born on Long Beach. Yes. When did you start surfing? Okay, and then became hooked. You remember your first-ever surf trip outside of California? Have you ever missed a family member's birthday party because of a swell?
David Lee Scales
No. Is this in reference to Scott Bass and something that he called me out on a while ago?
Michael Frampton
I just think—question. I mean, the deeper question would be like the relationship that we have to surfing. Like, when I was in my 20s, I remember we—in New Zealand, we had this run of tropical cyclone swells, which was—I quit my job. I just quit my job and signed up for the employment benefit because the surf was that good. So that's amazing. That's an unhealthy relationship with surfing.
David Lee Scales
Really? Yeah, it's—I mean, is it? Because how important was that job?
Michael Frampton
Well, I mean, you renege certain responsibilities, right? I mean, essentially, the taxpayers of New Zealand were paying me to go—
David Lee Scales
Surfing. They would argue that it was an unhealthy relationship with surfing. So, I mean, honestly, I think that's a healthy relationship with surfing at a certain age. Like, if you're in your early 20s or whatever, and it's just a—you—it's one of any other jobs that you could be working at that time. You're not really getting fulfillment out of it, then surfing might have been the healthiest thing for you to do. Okay, well, I felt guilt, actually, when you asked me that question, and I haven't committed to surfing as much as you had in that moment. And I thought that you were referencing something that Scott Bass and I had a conversation about, I don't know, a year or two ago. And it was actually Baja-related, too, where I was down there for a different reason, and the swell was forecasted for Monday, but we were coming home on Sunday. And, like, this crazy swell, right? Like, the swell of the—certainly of the year, but maybe of five years. And I'm—look, I'm mid-30s. I have tons of obligations. I have work, I have family, I have all sorts of obligations. So Sunday night was—I think it was my father's birthday that I was committed to. So we were coming—we were all coming back from Baja. I was with a group of guys who are all coming back Sunday anyways. And Scott, when he and I were recording on Tuesday, he's like, "How could you drive away from Baja knowing the swell is coming Monday?" And it had never dawned on me to stay for the swell because I'm a grown-ass man with obligations, right? So maybe in my 20s, I might have had that dilemma. But at this point in my life, it's like, dude, I get fulfillment out of my dad's birthday party. Like, surfing—I hate—I honestly—I don't know if I even hate to say this—I'm embarrassed to say it—I'm always apprehensive to say it—but surfing isn't that important to me. It's hugely important in certain ways, and it's like a part of my identity, and it's how I make my livelihood and all of those things, and I do it all the time. But it's only important insofar as it's a reprieve and, like, a reprieve from the things in my life that have real meaning, you know, like relationships and that sort of things. Then surfing is like the soft place to land where I go and I reset and all that, in the way that yoga might be or meditation might be or any of that. But those aren't the priority things. The surfing isn't like the top—the first block that I put into place. It's certainly a part of me, but it's again therapeutic for real life. But there's real life still, you know? Like, I would never let it block real life. I'm saying this as an adult; like, in my 20s, I don't know. Maybe I would otherwise.
Michael Frampton
I like that. But this is like a therapy session. I feel better now. You have a healthy relationship. Okay, I'm jealous. I mean, I'm like that now, but 10 years ago—like, I mean, even still—like, for example, it's—hypothetically, let's say we'd organized this a week ago, right? And then it just so happened that the swell of the year was peaking right now. I probably would have pulled out. Do you know what I mean?
David Lee Scales
Yeah, I do. Although you and I would have—
Michael Frampton
Priority.
David Lee Scales
You and I would have planned to surf and then do this after, which we did today. Yeah, exactly. We could have done both things.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's like before—like, if I'm looking at organizing my week, the first thing I do is look at Surfline, right? Okay, what's the swell? When's it peaking? What's the tide doing? And I try and organize my priorities around getting the best surf. It's just—I mean, that's how I operate.
David Lee Scales
Yeah, but you have the luxury of being able to do that. Those other things aren't going to suffer because of that. You could do them on Monday or Thursday probably, right?
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
David Lee Scales
So there's that. You've—life in such a way.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah. Do you think surfing is an addiction?
David Lee Scales
Yeah, I do. As with any other alcohol—like any other addictive substance—alcohol or drugs or whatever. Some people get addicted to it and some people don't. But it is an addiction. The best definition I know for addiction is you—you do something despite the consequence. Like you're compelled to do it despite the consequence. So if you're—you can't define it by volume, right? So because some people could drink a 12-pack of beer, get up in the morning, never beat their wife, get up in the morning, go to work every day, and never miss a day of work and live till an old age. Some people drink a 12-pack of beer and they kick the dog at the end of that 12-pack, they miss work the next day, they get fired, and then they drink a 12-pack the next night. That is doing something despite the consequence. So I think with surfing, there are plenty of people who do it despite the consequence, like you were giving the example of yourself, where you'd rather quit the job, you know, or you prioritize it over taking the kids to school or whatever obligations you have with the wife. So I definitely have seen surfing play that role in lots of my friends' lives, for sure—to a point that they regret it a decade later, you know? They get into their 30s or 40s and go, "Man, I really—that was my true love, was surfing, and my wife was second or third on the list, and I should have re-evaluated that at the time."
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So how would you describe—in one sentence, how would you describe your—your current relationship with surfing?
David Lee Scales
I've never described anything in one sentence, first of all. My current relationship with surfing at this point is professional. It's not nearly as romantic or passionate as it once was, or that I would like it to be. It's not dead permanently, but it's definitely in a dead phase, for sure. Like, my work relates to it, my podcast relates to it, and the actual act of surfing has been deprioritized in my life because of those things. You can only handle so much surfing in the course of 24 hours. And in the realm of like, quote, surfing, the podcast, us talking about it right now is part of that, you know? And so because I have these professional obligations related to, quote, surfing, the act of surfing itself gets bumped down a little bit, sure.
Michael Frampton
So the romance has died. Kind of get burnt out, yeah. Do you think it's part of the modern culture of surfing, the way it is at the moment—the crowds and the entitlement and the soft tops and—yeah?
David Lee Scales
I do. I think that being in Southern California makes it less enjoyable. There is the thing of, like, I just need better waves. I've been surfing now for 25 years-plus, and, like, what we surfed today—knee-high, kind of mushy, a little bit of wind on it—just is not enticing at all. And the elements that made it fun today were that it wasn't crowded, and there's the novelty of it being a new spot and all that sort of stuff. But if that's what it looked like at home for me today, there's no chance I would have paddled out. But if I go to Hawaii and the wave's good, you know, I'll surf six hours a day for two weeks straight—or I did Costa Rica last year, and that's how much I surfed. And at the end of the week, I was surprised that my physicality held up. I was surprised that, like, I was able to actually surf that much, because I haven't been routinely surfing that much for a while. It's a lot less enticing to surf mediocre waves at this point. That's the—
Michael Frampton
That's what's so—it's part of what's so awesome about surfing, is that you can go to Hawaii and risk your life, basically, to surf some incredible, death-defying waves if you want to. Or you can go and log on a longboard at knee-high Malibu with 80 assholes. There's this—surfing is so different; it's so unique. Yeah, it's unlike any other—yeah, yeah. It's just—it's almost like a thousand different sports all within one label. Totally. Well, even to label that a sport is possibly wrong. Sounds like it. Yeah, I think you have—it sounds like you have a good relationship with surfing.
David Lee Scales
Yeah. But so as you kind of try to manage your relationship with surfing through life, you know, it changes and it has different roles. And so at this point, there is this kind of professional relationship that I have with it, coupled with a waning interest in surfing mediocre waves. I kind of just need it to be head-high and good for me to be interested. And then you—so then, like, I go, "Okay, well then, I haven't surfed for two weeks because it hasn't been head-high and good. Okay, well then I'll get a glider." And so then you start adding in these other layers of complexity to it. But then it's like, "Okay, well, this is getting expensive, buying a bunch of boards, and I don't have enough space for all of these boards," and, like, it becomes so convoluted and complex. And then your athleticism either, you know, isn't as good. Like—and then I'm getting more fulfillment out of interpersonal relationships, like with my family or my parents or whatever it is. And then you take up running; it's like, "Wow, running is really fun." So then you wake up in the morning, and you're excited to run, and the waves aren't good. So it's interesting that it just kind of always evolves. But it's lost a lot of the romance that I think it had for me initially, and the passion that I had for it when I was young, you know. But it's kind of a deeper, more meaningful relationship in a lot of other ways. It hasn't damaged my life in the way that I talked about addiction would for some people, you know. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
No, I know plenty of surfers where if there's a swell, and they will renege on all other obligations.
David Lee Scales
And I mean, I've dated girls who are like, "I would never date a surfer." Like, that was kind of a—"No, I don't date military dudes, and I don't date surfers, and I don't date whatever," you know, which is a flaw in their own processing. But I understood what they meant by that, you know, because they—the Spicoli stereotype is kind of accurate, you know? They are indeed maybe—dude, totally.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Surfers are the worst. It's not necessarily surfers are the worst, but sometimes, for some people, surfing brings out the worst in them. Because you can have some guy who's the nicest guy in the car park or at dinner, but as soon as he's put a wetsuit on, he's like, "Who are you?" Like, what a—
David Lee Scales
Douche. Totally. And I'll—I notice my personality is affected depending on external criteria, like the board that I'm riding, the spot that I'm surfing. I will be that asshole. Like, if I'm surfing Huntington Beach Pier, like, I turn into aggro guy. And then I'll find myself on vacation somewhere applying that Huntington Beach shortboard asshole mentality, and I'll realize everybody around me is mellow and cool, and I'm the asshole in the lineup. And I go, "Shoot, I gotta back off a little bit," you know? March last year. Yeah, it was actually—
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So you went to Australia last year? Yeah. Is it your first trip? How did you find the difference in culture between SoCal and Australia?
David Lee Scales
I preferred Australia in a lot of ways. There's parts of it that are similar, for sure, you know. Like, you could draw parallels probably between, like, Byron Bay and Venice Beach, California, or something. There's kind of analogous aspects to it. But I did prefer—I could see myself living in Australia. Like, there's less hustle and bustle. I felt there's a more healthy balance in life, where people are fit and they're conscientious of food, what they put in their body, all that sort of stuff. They're not overly concerned with keeping up, I don't know what—the Joneses—or advancing their position in life and all that sort of stuff. There probably is an element of that there, but not to the degree that we see in Los Angeles, you know. Yeah, where you're willing to sit in traffic three hours a day to advance your position in life to no end, oftentimes. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
But what about within the surf culture? It's like—I mean, you—with—I mean, you take a wave like First Point Malibu, like one of the best waves in the world, and then, okay, what would be the Australian equivalent? Say the Superbank—did you surf there or did you have any of—
David Lee Scales
I did Lennox, those—yeah, I surfed those. It wasn't pumping on the Superbank. I surfed some good waves around Byron at that time. So those were similar. I mean, I don't know—it's probably less aggressive in general, I would say. Maybe the Superbank would have been aggressive if it was pumping, but I surfed D'bah, got tons of waves, never really hassled with anybody. The points around Byron—everybody was pretty mellow, riding a bunch of different equipment. There was, you know, finless guys out, there was longboarders out, there were shortboarders, and everybody was getting waves and never really had to hassle that much. I'd say Southern California feels a lot more aggressive. But again, I know the Superbank would be aggressive if it was pumping.
Michael Frampton
I would say Southern California is more passive-aggressive because in Australia, if someone is a better surfer and they take off deeper and they read the wave better than you, as an Australian surfer, you accept that and you look up to that. If I do—if I take that approach out here, I just get dropped in by a soft top who thinks it's his turn. I'm like, "What are you—it's not your wave! Have you missed—I've surfed like 50% of the wave before it even came to you. You can't just sit on the shoulder." And—but in SoCal, they just don't understand. They just think, "No, but it was my turn." There's no respect for the amount of time and skill that it takes to take off deeper and read waves and—
David Lee Scales
That's a new thing, and that's problematic. I think that is a newer trend and probably related to this generation of entitlement. Because when I was growing up, that wasn't the case. It was the meritocracy that you're talking about. And it was like, even if the dude was, let's say, diminutive and poor on land and got no respect, if you paddled out and he was shredding, he was the king. And you always defer. And then you get back on land and you still respect him, where he wouldn't garner respect for any land-based reason. But because you know he shreds in the water, you're like, "Yep, this dude's the man," you know.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and you're like—you always want to, like, learn from—for sure—what is he seeing in that wave that I'm not seeing or—yeah, interesting. See, I think the Australian—the core surfer of Australia—is put it this—I mean, the way the surf culture is in Southern California now, I blame the core surfers who let it happen. Do you know, if you go—if you were to act like an entitled Southern California surfer on a soft top at a good break in Australia, there will be multiple people that will paddle over to you and talk to you and say, "Hey, you know what?" They'll—they're not going to be—they'll talk to you first. And if you disrespect the talking-to, then they'll just drop in on you, and they might send you in. But here, this is like—this passive-aggressive—it's like everyone just sort of ignores it, lets it slide, tries to push you off the wave, yells and screams at you, sort of.
David Lee Scales
What—I mean, I think that's fair, because—so I think it's because of the litigious society that we live in. Because even what you just said, pushing them off a wave—we've seen lawsuits take place in America because of that exact thing.
Michael Frampton
Really?
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Wow.
David Lee Scales
Yeah, there was one in Newport Beach within the last two years. There was a Virginia Beach situation where the guy actually got arrested for pushing somebody off the wave. The guy burns him; he surfs—the surfer with priority surfs up to him and pushes his butt, basically, off the wave, and he got arrested for it.
Michael Frampton
For—?
David Lee Scales
Yeah. I don't think he—I mean, I think he spent one night in jail, and I have no idea how it ended up in the courts after that. But—so everything's recorded. You cannot escape being recorded, your every move. But, I mean, honestly, I think what you're talking about—localism—I mean, the locals would regulate up until a certain point in society's evolution locally—Huntington, Malibu, and certainly Santa Barbara and all that stuff. But people are afraid to now.
Michael Frampton
Well, yeah. Assault.
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Wow. So CCTV is to blame. With that in mind, I mean, it's not worth the risk.
David Lee Scales
Exactly. It's not. I don't want to spend a night in jail just because of a wave.
Michael Frampton
So—
David Lee Scales
And then get sued. Like, depending on how far it goes, you know, like lose your family's—you know, taking care of your family and all that stuff. It's crazy.
Michael Frampton
Okay.
David Lee Scales
Just can't use your hands. You can't physically touch. Can—I don't know, you have to consult with an attorney. I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on a podcast.
Michael Frampton
Okay. I might think twice about pushing longboarders off waves at First Point now.
David Lee Scales
You touch the surfboard, though.
Michael Frampton
Well, last time I pushed a—last time I surfed First Point, someone blatantly dropped in on me, and I pushed their surfboard off the wave, and they jumped off the board and dove and managed to grab my leg rope and just pulled it, so no one ended up surfing that wave. Didn't even look at him; I just paddled away. I was like, "I'm not—I don't want to have that discussion. I'm just gonna paddle out and get the next wave." There's no point engaging with that kind of attitude.
David Lee Scales
And then what was the discussion after that? I—
Michael Frampton
It's a good move.
David Lee Scales
Yeah, yeah. I've—I think I've evolved to that as well because I've had—I mean, I remember being a punk teenager surfing in Newport Beach where some old dude burned me, and I kicked my board at him, like in a very dangerous fashion. I knew it wasn't—he wasn't close enough to where I would hit him, but I at least wanted to, like, pose. And he started cussing at me and, like, came in hot at me, and I got freaked out because he was way bigger than me. So I remember that's one end of the spectrum in terms of aggression. But I certainly have had instances in the last year where I've done what you just said, where it's kind of like, "I know I was in the right here, and I know that this ended with both of us blowing it, but I'm not—it's not even worth discussing." And even putting the energy into either arguing or just explaining to them why they were wrong is negative energy that I don't really want to kind of put out there. I'd rather just paddle out and get another wave, you know?
Michael Frampton
It's probably true.
David Lee Scales
Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, too—like, with so many—90% of those instances, just paddle deeper. Take off a little deeper than they can and surf around them. Even if they burn, you can usually just, like, find a way around. Once you know who they are and how kooky they are, you either take the high line above them or go below them, and that'll embarrass them enough.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. That type of person—you can't correct their behavior anyway, right?
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
You just have to wait for a bigger swell that sorts them out. Surf politics.
David Lee Scales
Exactly.
Michael Frampton
It's part of—you can't ignore it, especially in Southern California. I mean, if you want to get waves, you have to be somewhat of a surfing politician.
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Be friendly to the right people, know who's who, know who's—what they're doing.
David Lee Scales
Totally. Right. It's a different—like you said, though—it's different politics here than it is in Australia, than it is in Hawaii. You know, everywhere has their own. But this is the most fraught with kind of—I don't know—peril, but, like, non-meritocracy-based politics.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. It's—I'm always in mind—I've mentioned to you before, I'm a little bit mind-blown that when First Point is above head-high or even shoulder-high, it's such a good shortboarding wave. It's one of the most rippable walls out in the world. But it's just longboarders still dominant, even though—hey, when it's above head-high, why don't you just go on a mid-length or a fish or a shortboard? And—but no, people just insistent on taking their fat, leashless logs out at crowded, you know, head-high and above Malibu. And—or the good surfers are, yeah, but there's a lot of average surfers that, when the waves get like that, they just don't—they don't really know what they're doing. There's boards getting washed up.
David Lee Scales
I know.
Michael Frampton
They're—
David Lee Scales
They making sections, though? Are they making—I mean—
Michael Frampton
That's the sketchy part. So I'd be happy on a shortboard out there, sitting inside doing lots of duck diving but being able to spin at the last second for the guys that don't make the sections or they fall or whatever. But you see that 10-foot leashless log cartwheeling at you out there, and that's a game changer.
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
That means—that eliminates my interest in sitting underneath.
David Lee Scales
For sure.
Michael Frampton
There's a couple of shortboarders at First Point that just sit deep, and when they're paddling for a wave, they just start yelling—just at the top of their lungs, "No! Get off!"—as loud as they can. That's the only way that they can get a wave without people dropping in on them.
David Lee Scales
Yeah, it's such a hassle. That's so—I don't even want to have to yell to get a wave, you know what I mean? It zaps a lot of the fun out of it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, totally. It's—but getting one of those set waves at First Point is quite an experience.
David Lee Scales
Totally.
Michael Frampton
It's an amazing surf break—even Second Point. It's a great wave on its day, and it's—not a lot of people surf it. Just quietly, it's a tricky wave to make. What's the best—no, what's the worst surfing advice you've ever received?
David Lee Scales
That's an interesting question. I have—I don't know that I receive a lot of surfing advice. I mean, maybe it was Scott Bass telling me that I should have stayed in Mexico when it was my dad's birthday. I'd say that's pretty bad advice. I don't know. Your little tidbit of advice today of, like, "Just surf the section that's in front of you," was a great little insight. I had blown five waves prior, and it was like that very next wave, which I feel like was a lesser wave—I just kind of got a little bit of a rhythm going on that wave by doing that exact thing, you know? So that was good advice. Yeah, I don't know—I don't know that I get a lot of advice from people.
Michael Frampton
Well, I mean, that's what good surfers do. They surf where they are. They don't even care—they don't—a good surfer is not looking down the line to see what's going on. They're just like, "I'm just going to hit that section." And the thing is, if you hit that section properly, you're going to come out of that turn with speed, and you're going to make the next section. You're more likely to make the next section than if you had just taken a high line anyway, because you're going—ideally, you got speed out of that turn. So that's—yeah, that's a—I mean, I coach a lot of intermediate surfers, and that's probably the most common problem you see: they're just looking down the line.
David Lee Scales
Too far. It's intermediate 101. Yeah, I'd never really thought about it before, and it's 100% accurate. And where we were surfing right now is like that rock down at the end of the section—I’d get up and I'd assess where that was every time, and then I'd figure out what to do from there. And you're right: forget about that thing. Worry about it when you get to it.
Michael Frampton
You learn that surfing the beach breaks a lot. It's just—you aren't necessarily looking for a long wave you're going to get two or three turns on; you're just looking for a section. There's one section to do one thing. And if you happen to hit that correctly, then the next section's right there anyway, and you're in the right spot with speed. Yeah, one good turn deserves another, but yeah, if it doesn't happen, it doesn't matter. Yeah, exactly. All it takes is one good turn, right? Sometimes that's it. Yeah, one good turn—I'm done, gone. Yeah, and then I can't top that. Have I—yes, I remember from a lo—I followed—I mean, well, by proxy—I remember thinking—I remember surfing a new break, a weird reef break, and just going, "Okay, what do I do here? I'll just follow this local," and maybe the person wasn't the local or just ended up in the wrong spot, and I ended up, like, digging my board and my skin. And so it wasn't necessarily advice. But no, I haven't received any bad surfing advice. I've certainly received better and worse surfing advice. Some people will tell you, especially with board choice—like, some people have—the theory is that you should be riding a board that's as small as possible and still paddle into a wave, because when you're on the wave and surfing, you want to be on a small board with less volume. I think that's good advice for a high-level surfer for sure, because if you're a high-level surfer, you want to be in a Ferrari essentially. But if you're not a high-level surfer, you're better off in a Mustang or a nice Audi—do you know what I mean? It's a bit more volume, get into the wave earlier. So board choice—there's a lot of different theories out there on board choice advice, and I'm—I take it as I want to surf as much volume as I can without hindering my ability to put the board on rail. Sometimes boards are just too wide or too thick, and it's just—you have to move your feet around to get the board on rail. That's when you know you're on too big a board. So I'm trying to find a board that's as big—as much volume as possible—but I can still surf it on rail. So there's a little bit of board advice there that people can send you in the wrong direction. Yeah.
David Lee Scales
And even if you don't, doing one good turn's enough. Exactly. Like, for the whole session. Yeah, totally.
Michael Frampton
Have you ever received bad surf advice?
David Lee Scales
Regarding bad advice, I thought you were giving me bad advice intentionally today, where it was only you and I, and a set would come, and you're like, "The second one looks better, so I'll go on the first one." I'm like, "Dude, classic move. Bait me into the shittier wave so that you can—" but then you were right. You were actually doing it kindly. But you know what I mean? Like, I'll always—if I know—if I see a set pop up, I'll hoot my buddy into the crappy one. I should be like, "Yeah, go!" and he'll get all amped and make a paddle, and I'm like, sweet—I got the rest of myself. There's exactly—yeah exactly, it's a classic move. So to my own, you know, detriment, rarely—like honestly, really rarely—I only have in recent years, and it's of course really, I don't know, demoralizing.
Michael Frampton
Some surf politics. Yeah, you're always doing that. Yeah, just paddle for the small one and then turn around. Yeah. You haven't had any coaching, no surf coaching?
David Lee Scales
No.
Michael Frampton
You've seen yourself on footage, though?
David Lee Scales
Every time you see yourself on footage, it's a horrible experience. It really is. Yeah, they're never—I mean, especially if you're only looking at the best of the best footage. Yeah, you know what it's like when you see those guys in real life—it's like, it's—yeah—mind-blowing compared to what it looks like on film.
David Lee Scales
I will say—yeah, that's so true. I'll come back to that in a second—but I will say that I've never seen, like, when I've felt like I've actually surfed to my potential, I've never seen footage or still shots of those moments. So the only footage and still shots that I've seen were me just kind of surfing mediocrely. And so even though it is demoralizing, it's like I can kind of write it off as, "Yeah, well, I didn't really surf to my potential on that wave anyways." But what you were just saying—I remember—so I kind of grew up surfing in Huntington Beach. That was my main spot, and you look at the local pro out there, and you just think, "My gosh, this guy is light-years better than I'll ever be—so much faster, hits the lip so much harder. It's crazy," right? And then the U.S. Open comes to town, and you see all of these B-level pros, guys who are ranked 100th in the world or 200th in the world, and they are light-years better than your local pro, and your mind is blown. You're like, "I can't—I didn't even know that you could be that much better at surfing," because when you watch it on video, it's all kind of the same—you know, did an air reverse or whatever. Then Kelly Slater comes to town—or I remember surfing—Tom Curren paddled out one time when I was in Newport at a fairly young age, and it was unbelievable. Like, he was paddling for waves I wasn't even looking at, just little insider waves, and he would get up and just start—like he'd get this flow going, hip swivel, and like smash a section and like tons of spray, fins would come out the back, and then he'd be in the next section before that spray even landed—on a knee-high wave that was an insider—and surf it way down the beach, all the way to the sand. That—I mean, I couldn't even comprehend why he looked at that wave, how he got the speed to do what he was doing. He did eight turns on a—which Newport, you know, you can't even get two turns off. Like, it was mind-blowing. So the levels—the different stratas—and that's not even his bread and butter. Like Tom Curren, put him on a J-Bay or like a long point break, and that's his bread and butter. Like, surfing a crappy beach break isn't even his thing, so imagine Felipe Toledo out there, you know, or Italo or something. There's just—the stratas, the degrees of difference between an Italo versus Wade Carmichael, let's say—two guys who are on tour—is infinite. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
It certainly is. You know, you'd argue that there's—I mean, you and Scott have been saying it for a long time—this should only be the top 16, really.
David Lee Scales
A totally different level of surfer, the top 16 versus the bottom 16. Yeah, and even, like, the top—I don't know, five versus everybody else. It's just a full-on different thing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it is. It really is. I wonder what's going to happen—this COVID.
David Lee Scales
We'll see. Got lots of thoughts, but—yeah, crazy.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I kind of miss—it's going to be sad not to have a Pipe Masters at the end of this year, which looks like that's going to be the case.
David Lee Scales
For sure, dude. Yeah. I mean, Americans aren't allowed to go to Europe anymore. Like, the tour is done. Hawaii doesn't want us there. You got to quarantine for two weeks if you go to Hawaii right now, have groceries delivered to your house, all that sort of stuff. So there's no chance that that's going to come together in the next few months, you know? But they are filming "The Ultimate Surfer" up at Surf Ranch, so we have that to look forward to—yeah, look forward to—nobody's looking forward to that.
Michael Frampton
Some of us have to. Yeah, there's—what, there's no surf attitude in the World Surf League? Just—yeah, vanilla is a great word. Or, I mean, you guys use the analogy of the UFC. I mean, the UFC does UFC, and they appeal to the core UFC watcher and someone who maybe rolls jujitsu once a week. That's who they appeal to, and lo and behold, other people watch.
David Lee Scales
That's so true.
Michael Frampton
So vanilla, it's—
David Lee Scales
People who would never consider punching anybody in the face want to see blood and a broken arm in an armbar for some reason. And you're right; we have talked about it, so I'm restating myself, but there's probably people listening now that haven't heard it. Like when I started watching—I remember watching UFC One when I was a teenager, young teenager, and watching the first few events. And they were on television, and at that point there were no rules. People were punching each other in the groin. You were allowed to eye-gouge; there were no weight divisions. It was all interdisciplinary. There was no mixed martial arts. There was kung fu versus sumo, and people were losing teeth. Like, this sumo wrestler got kicked in the face by this kickboxer, and his teeth flew into the audience. Like, I remember watching it, you know? And so network television realized real quickly that this is way too brutal and we're not going to allow this. So the UFC went through a number of iterations, but they never—and they sold two times—but they never—let's fast forward to Dana White's current kind of running of the UFC. He leaned into those things. They recognized it limited the competitive aspect by allowing groin punches and no weight classes, so they refined those things. They put some rules into place, and they've created weight divisions, but those things made it more competitive. It never eliminated the competitiveness of it, but they never shied away from the blood-and-guts aspect of it. They realized that this is brutal, and if we ever try to tamp down the brutality, we're missing the point completely. And that's the one little pivot that the WSL has not made correctly, is it okay that this is unpredictable. The unpredictability adds drama. And it's okay that these people are—you know, like the more vigilant the surfer, the more spice and dirtiness it adds to their style of surfing, you know? Like if you tried to quell Andy Irons' drug addiction, he wouldn't have been Andy Irons. He was as radical of a surfer as he was because he had highs and lows in his life, you know, and struggles. And so when you sand off all those rough edges, no offense, but you get Kolohe Andino, and he's never going to say a bad word on air, and he's always going to, like, surf a wave the way that you would expect him to surf it. But that's not exciting. There's no drama in that. And you have some examples—I think like Kelly and John, certainly Italo—that they're not misbehaving in any way, but they have enough—Kelly and John have enough other interests in life outside of surfing that it adds a lot of interest to their surfing, you know? The fact that John, let's say, won't surf for two weeks but he'll go on a sailing trip—I think he comes back a better surfer, and his surfing has all sorts of more, I don't know, creative expression because of these other inputs that he has in life. Whereas Adriano de Souza, who's just focused—or even Gabriel Medina to a certain degree—who's just focused on points and accruing points to the judges' criteria—it becomes very robotic, and it's just not that exciting. It's certainly not exciting to watch. There's no art in it. It's not jazz, and it's predictable, and the predictability zaps all the drama out of it. So then you couple that with the business decisions that the WSL has made in terms of buying the KSWaveCo technology, so they're heavily invested in that. They want to sell pools all around the world, so now we're going to do a world tour event in a pool, and we're going to have a reality show based on the pool. It's the most predictable thing in the world. It's so boring to watch; it's so hard to differentiate your surfing in there. All of the jazz element and artistic element that I'm talking about is nullified in the pool. It becomes an expression of who has the most dominion over their surfboard, which is gymnastics, and it's no longer surfing. It's no longer wondering which wave is going to come through Pipeline, and who's going to choose to go—my, that was a perfect left, but he chose to go Backdoor and Backdoor the thing, and it's going to open up on the inside boil, like—and he's going to have to—like, all of that is—all that surfing is—it's a hundred percent of the pugilist—pugilism aspect of the UFC wondering if somebody's going to get bloodied, you know? So I think that's where the WSL lost the plot and completely missed—by this one kind of little misstep—you miss the entire plot completely.
Michael Frampton
Exactly! I think the biggest mistake is not catering to the core. That's, in a nutshell—because I'm a surf coach to intermediate surfers, right? And I'm talking surfers that love surfing, that want to get better, that are spending money to get better, that are spending money on surf trips, that are so surf-obsessed they're almost like a core surfer. But when I ask them, "Who's your favorite surfer?" they're like, "I don't watch surfing." They don't really watch—they don't even watch. So really they don't—they certainly don't watch—they might say, "Every now and then an Instagram video pops up and I feel inspired," but they don't know who that person is. They certainly don't have any interest in following the WSL. They don't even know who Dan Reynolds is. They know who Kelly Slater is—that's—but these intermediate surfers that love surfing, they're not interested in the WSL. The WSL is trying to target people that aren't interested because surfing's not a sport—I mean as a competitive—if you're a competitive surfer, it's a sport for sure, and I think that's what—I mean, especially in Australia, you've got the board—the boardriders culture. Yeah, so if you're a surfer and you live at a local beach, you kind of get fed into some sort of competitiveness. So there's the element. But that doesn't really exist here in America. So if you fall in love with surfing, competition doesn't even enter your mind. So why would you watch a surfing competition? Why would the governing body of competitive surfing try and target the people that have no interest in it? It's like they're shooting themselves in the foot. So I think if they were to really target—there might be maybe only 10% of surfers are core surfers, but those surfers will—as you and Scott keep reiterating—they will pay $60 a year to watch John and Gabriel, you know, surf the peak of an amazing Hawaiian swell at Pipeline or—
David Lee Scales
—is about it. Laird Hamilton, probably. Yeah, that's fascinating. So think—so again, the UFC as the example—who would have thought that broad-market America would want to watch people have their arm broken or get punched unconscious? Nobody would have bet on that, and yet people do. And I think—so you're exactly right—is cater to the core. You think somebody in Middle America won't understand the minutiae of difference in a top turn between Kelly Slater or Coco Ho? Give them a chance; they just might be able to identify the nuance of difference. And when you look at kind of the most successful—even things like scripted narrative TV—"The Sopranos," it's this niche culture, you know, Jersey mob, that Middle America can't relate to at all, but we're fascinated by it. We want to know what this niche counterculture thing is. The most successful TV, movies—they're these kind of peeks into these very straight-to-the-vein, essentially—yeah.
Michael Frampton
And it's unadulterated and unedited. Exactly. And what is surfing now? Can you imagine if Bobby Martinez stormed the judges' tower tomorrow? His sponsors would go, "You can't do that." I'm like, "What?" That sponsor should be increasing his—exactly—because that is what people will watch. For sure, people watch him do the top turn. They won't understand the minutiae, but when he gets angry and storms—everyone wants to see that. Everyone wants to see Andy Irons get punched by Shane Haran or Mick Campbell, hear about Kelly Slater walking into Andy's house. Like, all of the stuff that nowadays would get—would—you'd be too scared to do because of losing your sponsorship and your coach is constantly, like, chaperoning you, and it's just so anti-surfing—
David Lee Scales
—and still is. Still is. They don't edit his commentary. Yep. Yeah. Pottz is one of the most hardcore dudes who edits himself—well, he's probably told to edit himself in the commentary. But we want to hear the stories from Pottz. We want to see Pottz storm the judges' tower. I say, "What the—?"
Michael Frampton
—is, "Let him do—"
David Lee Scales
—the salary. I don't follow tennis at all, but I know who John McEnroe is—
Michael Frampton
—exactly—
David Lee Scales
—and was—
Michael Frampton
—exactly, yep.
David Lee Scales
Exactly. He's a shell of the Pottz that we once knew, or just hear the passion that he once had, you know? He's completely zapped of all of that stuff. Yeah, Pottz's biggest mantra as a commentator now is that surfers should surf at 70%. That's what he's harping on: "He should have gone 70%; he would have made that wave." I'm thinking to myself, "How do I reconcile that with Pottz that I once knew, who only ever surfed at 120% despite the potential of falling?" Your whole thing was being radical and raw and just blasting the lip and beyond the lip, doing airs back in the day, and now you're going 70%? Like, that is sad to me. Well, yeah exactly. Truly, he'll coach somebody to a solid 12th position, you know what I mean? And like you'll have a career, and you'll have safety and security, but you're never going to be world champ following that advice.
Michael Frampton
I'm glad he wasn't Italo's coach. Yeah. Well, we'll see what happens. Maybe—and it's rumored to be up for sale, right? The WSL?
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So maybe some core lord will buy it and shrink it down and make it just raw and surf and, like—I mean, they should be running competitions now. Do—you can guarantee you could get at least 10 of the best surfers in the world now, paying them to do nothing, like idiots.
David Lee Scales
I know, like, somewhere for sure they have the resources to make that. You're—yeah, it's wild. There's been a real lack of direction and leadership. This is a lack of—yeah, but in—yeah, but my real legitimate criticism is that there's a huge lack of leadership and direction in the WSL through this whole COVID process. I mean, we've seen almost zero action from the WSL, and there are dozens of decisions that could have been made and things that they could have—that they could be doing right now that—I mean, look at Jamie O'Brien. He's not missed a blog. He's making two blogs a week through all of this, and he's up to half a million subscribers on YouTube. He's got a million followers on Instagram. Same thing—Gravy has fewer, but same thing. He hasn't missed a day of work. They're cranking out content and, by the way, engaging the exact audience that the WSL wants. It's embarrassing. They're putting the WSL to shame with a fraction of the budget, completely vertical, doing everything from hiring the production crew themselves to distributing and disseminating the content and marketing the content, and the WSL is like, got all of the resources and doing zero of the work. It's embarrassing. Yeah, it's totally embarrassing. Yeah, and all the athletes and all the access—it's crazy.
Michael Frampton
Surf culture. Like, you get more surf—raw culture—at the car park at First Point Malibu. Yeah, it is. So anyway, yeah, probably Ain't That Swell podcast is probably earning more money than the WSL because they're targeting the core surfers and it's unedited, it's raw. But that's—yeah, just—I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of American listeners that listen to that podcast and don't even understand half of what Australian colloquialisms are but still get the humor behind it. Right, and it goes back to what—you know, the non-fighter watching the UFC—it's entertaining.
David Lee Scales
What—no pulled punches. Exactly. It's entertaining, and you want to be on the inside. That's the other thing. If you're not, you're kind of like, "Well, what does that mean?" And then you start engaging or you start researching it. Yeah, you start—exactly—it's good to have that listener who doesn't fully understand, or viewer, that they now are invested in it. That's a psychological kind of ploy, you know, for your audience. Yes, so the WSL doesn't need to dumb everything down and make it palatable. It's okay to alienate. Yeah, it makes people want to be on the inside.
Michael Frampton
Googling, "What is dragging corn?" You've met a lot of good surfers, a lot of pros, just good—is there anything, if you think of all the great surfers you know, somewhat who have met, is there anything they have in common that separates them from average surfers?
David Lee Scales
Interesting. Don't know. I mean, I've thought about this in different terms. I've thought about, like, yeah, what is it that—whatever it is, I would argue that it's probably based in art more than anything else. Whatever your kind of brain—side of your brain or brain processing that is related to artistic expression—I think that is a common denominator. It's not intelligence, because like some of the better surfers I've ever known are super dumb, and they don't have any discernible skill on land or any way to even make a living, you know, or whatever. But they're kind of a savant-level talent in the water. So there's—I don't even think it's athleticism so much, which you would think that it would be. It is like an attunement with the ocean and Mother Nature, and probably an element of what you said earlier about attacking just one section. There's an element of living in the moment that you have to have. And if you're thinking about something you did wrong or anything in the past, if you're thinking too far into the future or trying to apply some technique that you learned previously onto what you're doing now, you've already missed it. You really just need to be kind of present, in kind of this Buddhist meditative way. So that's an identity that is a common characteristic that I've seen with everybody. I'd say it's just that ability to kind of attune in that way and just allow your kind of muscle memory to take over. But I don't think that's enough to make you a good surfer. I think that there has to be some other elements at play, too.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. I mean, you're on the money. You're focusing on the present moment, essentially. That's what good surf is. All good—anyone who's good at anything has the ability—especially in terms of athleticism—you can narrow your focus to that present moment and just trust. It's like I was saying—just surf what's in front—you surf that section, don't worry about the rest—a way of narrowing your focus.
David Lee Scales
I was talking about—I referenced intelligence, and it's almost counter to intelligence because you can overthink—is totally, I would argue.
Michael Frampton
What's a different form of intelligence? It's—you could break it down—I mean, the most fundamental skill of any surfer is the ability to read or to predict the wave, because you watch any good surfer and it almost looks like they know what's coming, you know? They read the wave at such a high level and they predict what the wave's going to do at such a high level, it seems like they're perfectly in tune with it, and that's a form of intelligence—pattern recognition. And creativity could be—I mean, you could describe intelligence as understanding reality and what's possible, and then creativity is understanding what's possible but hasn't been done before. So they're good at combining those two things. But you have to be in the present moment. And probably the—this reminds me of—reminds me of something I just thought of, which I haven't said on the podcast before, but like, it must have been maybe four or five years ago. I was surfing Uluwatu, and it was pretty good waves, and then Jack Robinson's dad paddles past me. I'm like—and this was at the time where Jack—I think Jack had won maybe the Vulcan Pipe Pro or something, and there was a lot of talk about how good a tube rider he is in Hawaii. And I just went out to him and said, "Do you—tell me why your son is like one of the best tube riders in Hawaii and he doesn't live there?" He had an interesting answer, and he said when he was younger, he used to build boats inside bottles. I was like, "What's that got to do with surfing?" He was like, "Well, it takes a lot of focus and a very—very much an attentive focus on the fine details of things." And he said he takes that focus and that attention to detail into reading waves. Fascinating answer. I do too, especially because it—one—on the second podcast episode I ever did was with Tom Carroll, and I'd surfed with Tom Carroll, and you were talking about Tom Curren before surfing like knee-high waves, like doing round—I've surfed with Tom Carroll before. We went to a beach and surfed together, and I was on a fish, and I could not catch these waves. They were so weak and small, and Tom was on a performance shortboard doing top-to-bottom carves on, like, waist- to knee-high waves. And I was just like, "How this 50-year-old man is surfing waves top-to-bottom that I can't even catch?" And he says, "You just got to look for the details. I'm just looking for that refractive wave that's coming off that headland that's coming back, and the wind chop lined up with that little—and that gave me a little opportunity to get—" and that was the one piece of advice that changed the way I looked at surfing, was just looking for those details, those secondary swells, those wind chops, those—
David Lee Scales
I'm inclined to believe him. Because if you're just kind of subconsciously going through the motions, you're just looking for a set wave.
Michael Frampton
Well, most people just surf this—they think there's—"Here comes a line. I've got to surf the way that line breaks." But there's more—there's always more than one swell on the water. For sure. So it's the way those swells are interacting, and then especially in Australia, where there's lots of headlands and coves, there's always these—all sorts of wedging and refractions and backwashes and winds. And the finer you can see those details, the more you're going to get out of that wave. Totally. And tap into the energy.
David Lee Scales
Speaking of Tom Carroll, I did a—I was doing something with Quicksilver, and he was in town—this is probably five years ago, six years ago—and we did a full day at Lowers, like drive down from HQ and like spend the day in the car with him and surf all day and stuff. And god, yeah, his surfing was unbelievable. And he was riding a high-performance shortboard. It was a quad—he had a quad setup in it. But speaking of speed and like the ferocity that he would, like, hit a lip with, probably didn't translate at all into video—or very little—but when you're in the water and you see all of those details, I was blown away by how good that guy still surfs. It was gnarly. And his level of fitness is unbelievable. Yeah, it's inspirational. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
It really is. Yeah. It's—you know, I've seen him surf all sorts of conditions and surfed with him in all sorts of conditions, and it's amazing. He even said actually, on that note with the details—you know, I was talking to him about, "How do you surf those small waves so well?" And he's talking about, you know, it's the attention to detail. But he said that same attention to detail is what allows you to surf big waves as well, because all those little wind chops and secondary swells on top of a big wave is not the difference between you being able to do a turn; it's a difference between you making the wave or not. So it is—yeah, that's probably—it probably explains why, you know, the Hopgoods and Slater are famous for surfing tiny little Floridian waves and translating that to, you know, Hawaiian winters.
David Lee Scales
Everybody asks them those—that question—but you're the first person that ever answered it, you know, reasonably. They always kind of like make up like, "We're desperate for surf," so then—you know, but everybody's desperate—a lot of people are desperate for surf. But that detail is a lot more—yeah—practical. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
And that's what—I mean, improving my own surfing is just reading the wave better. Like, I spent the last month or so exclusively surfing my glider, and it forces you to—I approached surfing as like, "I'm not going to get better at surfing, I'm going to get better at riding waves." So I would literally just ride the wave, because—in fact, I would argue that's what most people—most surfers—don't surf the wave, they ride the wave. Right? If you consider surfing the wave in terms of performance, surfing is you're staying as close to the whitewash as possible without falling off, which is where the most vertical, the most power, the wave is top to bottom. That's surfing the wave if you call surfing a sport. What most of us are doing is riding the wave. And to get better at riding the wave, which is maybe maintaining flow and speed, you need to read the wave well. But that's what you need to do to surf the wave well as well—is to read it well. So I'm finding it's—that's the foundation of surfing: it's reading the wave properly and learning to be comfortable being right back, right close to the whitewash, and coming from behind the—and just trusting that if you do a proper bottom turn, you're going to make it around the section with speed. It's—yeah, it's interesting. Surfing is simpler than you think. It's—you know what it's like when you're watching someone surf, and you're like, "It looks like they have all the time in the world," and then when you go and surf that same wave, it feels like everything's happening so fast? Yeah. And that's essentially—that's your own stress. You're just not in the flow. You're stressed out, and every—you know, time ends up strobing and going fast. Yeah, so that's—I mean, that's—that comes with experience, right? Yeah. Like someone like John is so comfortable in those big Hawaiian waves—that's—you can't—that's experience. Totally. Yeah. Knowing how to wipe out is probably—yeah, I mean, lots of surfers have spoken about that, knowing how to wipe out properly. You know, Kelly Slater—watching Kelly—was it the last Pipe Masters when Kelly got that insane barrel at Backdoor? I think it was at 44 or 43 years old. Yeah. But the five waves before that, he pulled into close-out, double-overhead close-out barrels at Backdoor at 40 years old. Like, I'm going—most—you put you and I in that situation, our head's going to hit the reef. It's going to go in with a broken—so the skill of wiping out in a barrel like that is underrated completely, because that's what gives you the opportunity to make those mistakes and then get that once-in-a-lifetime barrel. Totally. That's what—that's what—did you ever watch Tim Ferriss try surfing? No, I think it was in Hawaii.
David Lee Scales
Officially my first coaching session—I feel good, I'm smarter already. So frantic. I feel like every Pipe Masters he does—but no, it was in Costa Rica, right? You see—so maybe I didn't watch that show, but he wanted to learn how to get good at surfing, so he did like three weeks in Costa Rica, and he hired Brad Gerlach. I don't know that they filmed—this might have been prior to what you're talking about. Maybe he wanted to get good at it first, and then he filmed the thing that you're talking about. But Gerlach was the coach, and then Tony Roberts, who I've done a couple of podcasts with, was hired on as the photographer, so he shot everything. And Tony told me Tim got better in two weeks than I've—than he'd ever seen anybody progress in surfing in any two-week period. Like, Tim was a complete novice, but he's like, "I've seen intermediate surfers come down here and do coaching; they don't get that much better. I've seen pros come down and, you know, work on stuff; they don't get that much better. He improved more rapidly than anybody I'd ever seen in my life." Like, the guy is just unbelievable at, like, taking in information and applying it. Haven't seen that—and Gerlach obviously is a great coach, so that probably helps, but yeah, I don't know that became an episode of that—but what were you going to say about the Tim Ferriss experiment, maybe?
Michael Frampton
I haven't seen that. Okay. Interesting—I might look into that. His—well, no, there was an episode of his show—it was old, yeah, something like that—and he went to—I think he went to Kauai with Laird. And the first thing Laird did was say, "Well, we're just going to go and just body surf. Just want you to get used to getting rolled around. Yep, hit the sand." But if you're not comfortable with that, then, you know, you're not going to be—you're not even going to try. Did—it was a long time ago. From memory, I think he might have stood up on a soft top. What can you expect? I mean, it's—I—anything else—the hardest part of surfing is catching the wave. Like, it's reading the wave, being at the right spot at the right time, positioning yourself, all of those stuff. If I was to snap my fingers and all of a sudden you're standing with your feet in the right place of the board, with proper posture on a set wave at Malibu, the rest is easy, right? Getting to that point is years. The hardest part of surfing—reading the ocean, positioning, like today—like, just paddle at this slightly different angle, it's gonna come from behind the section, and like little things like that—that's the hardest part in surfing. Pressure. Therefore it's—there's no—surfing doesn't have a driving range. Well actually, it does—and surf wave pools. But you know, whenever you play golf you've got a ball and a tee and a club that's always the same. Surfing, you just don't—you have your board, but essentially you're—yeah, that's what's—so reading the ocean is the fundamental skill of surfing, and always will—but wave pools will—I'm looking forward to wave pools.
David Lee Scales
He get—where did he end up at the end of the episode? Did he get better at surfing, or did he figure it out? So not that exciting. No, he wasn't at Jaws and—no things unlike—yeah, because—be totally. And yeah, I—they have value. It'll be a different thing than what we're talking about, but they certainly have value. I—
Michael Frampton
—am—in 20 years' time, I don't see why you couldn't surf Pipeline in a wave pool. Do you know? They'll recreate Pipeline in a wave pool.
David Lee Scales
I mean, the thing that will dictate whether or not that happens is if somebody could figure out a financial model that supports the pool itself. So if, you know, they can have a recreational wave pool that is fiscally viable, then it would stimulate enough investment to develop the pool to the point that you're talking about. But right now, that isn't proven. I think BSR Cable Park makes money, and they seem to be booked all the time. The Kelly Slater model is—they're banking on scarcity, basically. People are willing to pay $50,000 a day to surf that thing because there's only one of them and it's so scarce. But if there's a bunch of them everywhere, how do you keep the number that high? And then, by the way, if one of their neighbors is the Palm Springs Surf Club that's super rippable and fun and you get waves all day long for, you know, a tenth of the price—not less than a tenth of the price—then the Kelly Slater one becomes a lot less sacred. And I—so again, all of this has to be sorted out by the market, and we just don't know what that's gonna—and COVID's gonna affect all of that, and so travel is gonna affect all of that, and cleanliness of the pools and being around other people in a big crowd, you know. A lot of things have to fall into place for us to get to the point where they're surfing Pipeline—a Pipeline-style wave—in the pool. But the technology, for sure, is developable. Is it worth investing in it or not?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, they just got to figure out the disaster—I mean, the one—and what's the Mad Max—the Surf Lakes. I think that there's got some potential to—if that was bigger, that could be really—because I imagine that creates a swell that has more momentum behind it, because if—that's the thing, is like, I haven't surfed the wave pools, but I can imagine that it just—the momentum of the wave just doesn't—like a 20—a 22-second period swell coming at you, the way that wave just doesn't quit until it finishes on the sand is just something different—
David Lee Scales
Totally.
Michael Frampton
—to even a 12-second period swell. Yeah. If they can figure out how to create that type of energy—
David Lee Scales
Right.
Michael Frampton
—then waves could start breaking like Pipeline or whatever.
David Lee Scales
Totally.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. I'm sure they will figure it out. And artificial reefs as—
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
—they started dotting them around the place—
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
—a beach break like Zuma here, which is essentially a glorified closeout, could be turned into a surf park. I mean, it's never flat at Zuma, but it's very rarely surfable.
David Lee Scales
Yes.
Michael Frampton
I don't know if they've successfully done too many—
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
—surfers are the worst, but there's obviously plenty of rich surfers—
David Lee Scales
—of surf ranches. Well, that's more exciting to me.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
David Lee Scales
It would open up so many options everywhere in the world if you started implementing that. No, I don't either. Yeah, because there's no financial incentive to do it, you know? Yeah. Yeah exactly. I mean, again, it's—but you can't privatize the ocean, you know what I mean? Like, you can't cordon off an area and start charging people to go to it. So that eliminates the financial viability of putting in a reef there and getting people to pay to surf it. Yeah, I'm not bothered by that. I mean, if—again, if all the elements fall into place to motivate me adequately—if the waves are good and I have time off whatever I'm doing—and yeah, I'll definitely surf. The red tide will not dissuade me from surfing at all. What—crappy conditions? That's about it. You know, it's like, I don't want to surf knee-high, choppy, crappy waves—gutless waves anymore. It's just not that fun. But I say that—but every time I do it, I have a blast and I'm grateful that I did it. Yeah. I mean, super rare—I can't even—yeah, I always am grateful that I went out.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
David Lee Scales
But I just look at it and I go, "I don't know, is it worth it going out?" But every single time—that's weird, right? It's like I've noticed the same thing with cold water. It never gets easier to get into. I've been in cold water hundreds and hundreds—thousands of times in my life, and every time I dip my toe in, I go, "I don't want to do that." Just never get used to it. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Did you get—do you get in when it's a red tide? Do you surf when it's the red tide?
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Does dissuade you. A bad surf is rare. I can't even—I—yeah. No, it's a good point. Yeah, you've—I've never regretted a surf, never. Even if sometimes I'm like, "Just do it. It's crap," but it's always—even just going for a swim in the ocean is not regrettable.
David Lee Scales
Totally.
Michael Frampton
But yeah, what's the coldest water you've surfed?
David Lee Scales
Low 50s—52. I don't think I've ever been in anything lower than 50s. Northeast—yeah, it gets colder than that there, but I've never surfed colder than that.
Michael Frampton
Where was that—in NorCal?
David Lee Scales
Yeah, it's pretty cold. Yeah. Yeah, that's where a lot of the untapped potential is, I think, in the cold-water surfing. Yeah. I don't mind blowing that secret out because nobody will do that. I don't mind blowing it out. I don't mind blowing it out. I don't mind blowing it out. But I don't mind blowing it out. You have endless waves up there, but yeah, the North Atlantic—there's a mate—there's like—it's like Indonesia, you know? And I don't know, I've talked about a lot on the podcast, but there was a surf film that came out a couple of years ago called "The Seawolf," and it's all based in the North Atlantic. And the filmmaker—he was telling me that he's like, "Man, with enough time and resource, you can go on like an Indo-level quality boat trip. You just—it's a little more fickle, so you kind of have to know what's what, but the visuals from a filmmaker's standpoint are so spectacular. All the lighting's different, all the backdrops are different," you know? It's a really crazy trip if you're willing to do the work. That's all it comes down to. You're warm enough once you're in the water, but again, you got to motivate yourself to put that thing on and paddle out—walk across snow and paddle out into it. Yeah, that could be all the motivation you need. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Good thoughts for a surf. Wow—which—technology is pretty incredible at the moment. Well, there's nothing like pulling up to a pumping point break. Exactly. You just gotta see it to believe it, I guess. Exactly. Yeah, book the trip and do it. Yeah, but I guess you're so restricted by those suits, though—I guess you get used to that. I—
David Lee Scales
I think you even have to, like, adjust your board for it. You have to have more volume in your board and stuff like that because it's a lot of extra weight. Yeah, I reckon it would be—I don't know that it would be enough for you to notice. I think the weight of the wetsuit and those booties and all that would be the biggest challenge—the most noticeable, anyways. So, Earth Technologies out of Los Angeles—he calls it the Pool Ninja—he designed this for wave pools specifically. It's essentially a groveler, but it has a bunch of different elements in it that I don't have in any other board that I've ever ridden. It's 5'8". I'm six foot tall, so it's four inches shorter than I would ride my kind of normal shortboard thruster. It has—if you can imagine like an edge-bottom surfboard—it has that edge, but on the deck rather than the bottom. So for listeners who don't know what an edge-bottom surfboard is, the rail looks like a normal shortboard rail, but then it curves up real drastically and then has a 90-degree angle onto the deck. You look at it from, let's say, a profile, it would look like a quarter pipe, so coming off of the rail straight up into a quarter pipe and then the 90-degree angle onto the deck. So what that does is provides a lot more stability under your feet. So where you're standing is real thick, but the rail itself is narrow, like a normal shortboard rail, so you can do turns once you kind of lean into a turn—you're only sinking the rail-level of water, essentially. So, I don't know what the thickness is underfoot, but the idea—again, designing it for the pool where the pool is salt—I'm sorry, freshwater—the board is going to be more buoyant. It's EPS foam with epoxy lamination—obviously epoxy resin—and so it's buoyant, super floaty. That extra thickness helps with paddle ability, too. The thing paddles really well despite being a 5'8". And then it has—in addition to those things—it has a channel, like a single channel out the bottom center fin, which I've never ridden a board that had the single channel before, so that affects the rocker line—the center rocker line—of the board. So there's elements of it that add speed and stability, but then there's these other elements like—that add maneuverability to the board. It feels like normal. I mean, that's the thing so much with board design—asymmetrical boards or whatever—you look at it and you get freaked out. You're like, "This is gonna feel weird," or "I should probably approach this differently." It's kind of all the same once you get up and riding. It should just feel the same, and that board feels like a normal groveler—like a normal kind of high-volume alternative shortboard, essentially, is what it feels like.
Michael Frampton
Wonder if the density of water would be different too. What was the—what was the board you rode today?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I loved—good under your feet—an interesting board. Yeah. Okay, if you only had—if you're stuck in Southern California and you only had two surfboards for the rest of your life, what would they be?
David Lee Scales
When I was in Australia last year, I bought a mid-length from Morning of the Earth Surfboards. The surfboard shaper's name is Simon Jones, and Torren Martin is his biggest advocate and the guy that rides his boards and has kind of shined the spotlight on those boards. And it's a—I think it's 6'10". Yeah, 6'10" twin-fin channel bottom, and that thing is the biggest game-changer I've had in a long time. I've ridden it in one-foot waves, I've ridden it in head-high waves—it works equally well in all of it. Doesn't really allow you to rip—there's—I've seen a lot of different style mid-lengths. This has a lot of volume forward, and even a lot, like, kind of from your chest forward if you're laying on it, so it has swing weight to it. And so you're never gonna get the thing vertical, and you're almost not even gonna fully redirect it. Like, if you had a wide-open shoulder, you wouldn't even really do a full roundhouse cutback, bank off the lip, and then come back straight again, but you can down carve it really beautifully, and even down carve kind of back into the whitewash and then arc out of that back towards the lip. And even when you hit the lip, you're not going vert—you're kind of going, let's say, 10 o'clock. But it's so fast, and the swing weight adds a lot of fun—kind of interesting—element to the board that I don't really have in a lot of other boards. But the versatility—I've just had more fun on that thing. I find trim quicker. The board—it's got enough volume that you kind of have to let the board do its thing. You're not going to impose your will on—the board will always find—if you allow—find its own trim, and then you can add inputs into it once it's found its line on the wave. But the channels and the size of the fins make it more rippable than you would think that it would be, so that's the thing. And you'll watch—Torren is the best example. When you just watch him doing it, you're just like, "Man, he really like did like a radical bottom turn and did the gnarliest kind of top-turn down carve," and you find yourself having moments like that just—you would never be able to do on a shortboard or maybe even a fish. Yeah, and it's so stable. You know, like he—there's footage of him riding that at J-Bay where it's double-overhead and like really speedy sections, and it's fully controlled. Yeah, and covering so much ground, and so you tap into that a couple of times on that board, and it's kind of mind-opening, mind-blowing. So that's been my favorite board that I rode almost exclusively for quite a long time. And then the other one would be my board that you and I were talking about today, which is a 12-foot Dave Parmenter PSV—Paddle Surf Vehicle. It's kind of a glider. It kind of doubles as a prone paddleboard but has design elements that allow you to surf it. But that's opened my eyes to a bunch of waves in the ocean that I never would have considered surfing before. Again, from one foot to 10-plus feet, and you just start looking at little bumps coming that you were completely oblivious of before—now you can catch them with that much board and energy. So those would be my two most versatile boards that I would—you asked for Southern California, but that applies no matter where I was in the world.
Michael Frampton
Good board choices. I think there's a lot of people that would agree with those board choices, especially the mid-length. There's a lot of core surfers that might hate to admit it, but they would agree with that board choice. The question is, why isn't Cory, Pinto, and Torren Martin—why aren't they like—and why doesn't the WSL do like an alternate-board competition? I would be frothing to watch, you know, Dave Rastovich and Torren Martin and Colapinto and, you know, a couple other—Ryan Burch at overhead First Point or whatever, J-Bay, or—that would be something I would pay money and look—to watching. As an example, like—it doesn't just—surfing is not just about shortboarding. When you watch Thank You Mother, which is what you're referencing—yeah—I mean, if listeners haven't seen that already, go and watch Thank You Mother and just—well, if you haven't seen that kind of surfing on that kind of board before, it will certainly open your mind to how fun those boards can be and how performance—I mean, he's throwing just as much spray as anyone else, right? It's just different lines and different—it's just different.
David Lee Scales
Asher Pacey out—clearly, especially—totally different. Never going to do an air, but I would agree with you—still high performance. You were saying a lot of surfers would agree with those selections, but a lot of other surfers wouldn't know what those boards are, you know? A lot of surfers just are so—especially Orange County, where I'm from—it's like, dude, they're so narrow-minded, they're riding pointy shortboards, and that's it. That's all they ever considered. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
And it goes back to what I was saying before. It's like—the thing is, what you probably find is riding those boards, and then all of a sudden it's—you know, it's one and a half overhead and it's barreling. "I'm going back to the shortboard," and you jump back on the shortboard and go, "Wow, I'm a better surfer—"
David Lee Scales
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
—having done that.
David Lee Scales
For sure.
Michael Frampton
And all of a sudden—like for me—I mean, ultimately, I always want to be on a performance shortboard; it's just the waves aren't often—
David Lee Scales
Exactly.
Michael Frampton
They don't often request that type of surfboard.
David Lee Scales
Exactly.
Michael Frampton
But when that does happen, I'm so glad that I've learned how to surf everything from 5'5" to 11'0". And that's one of the best things you can do for your surfing, I think, is to ride these alternative boards and learn how they work, and watch other—watch people like Torren Martin surf these boards. And it teaches you to read waves better, which is the fundamental—it—
David Lee Scales
—all comes back to that.
Michael Frampton
Thanks for doing the show.
David Lee Scales
Thrilled to, man. I really felt honored to be invited.
Michael Frampton
I'm honored you came up, and thanks.
David Lee Scales
Cool. Thanks for the tour, too. This is awesome.
59 David Lee Scales - Surf Splendor Founder/Host
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.