055: Matt Grainger - Surfer, Coach, Philosopher.

SHOW NOTES

Why do so many beginner surfers skip the unspoken rules—and how does that impact not just the lineup, but the soul of surfing itself?

In this raw, rant-filled yet reflective episode, surf coach Matt Grainger joins host Michael Frampton to explore the tension between surf culture, personal transformation, and the quiet power of breathwork and meditation. Whether you're stuck at home during a pandemic or dealing with ego battles in the ocean, this conversation hits home for surfers navigating change in and out of the water.

• Discover why learning to stay calm in discomfort—through ice baths, meditation, and breathwork—might be the secret to next-level surfing.

• Hear brutally honest insights on why soft tops and surveillance are reshaping surf etiquette—for better or worse.

• Get inspired by how Matt's personal transformation (post-divorce and alcohol-free) reshaped not only his surfing but how he lives.

Tap play to hear how letting go of ego—on the sand and in life—might just be the missing link in your surf journey.

Key Points

• The discussion touched on the impact of COVID-19 restrictions on daily activities, including the closure of beaches and the challenges of social distancing in supermarkets.

• Michael shared his experience with poison oak and recounted a recent surfing incident where a beginner surfer dropped in on him, highlighting issues with surf culture and etiquette.

• Matt discussed his rebranding of the gym to the Surfers Gym, focusing on making it more accessible and enjoyable, and shared his recent achievements in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

• Matt elaborated on his practice of Wim Hof and ice baths, emphasizing the benefits of these practices for physical and mental well-being.

• The conversation delved into the concept of fear, particularly the fear of death, and how overcoming it can lead to personal growth and improved decision-making.

• Matt discussed his approach to coaching, focusing on fun and froth rather than competition, and shared his experiences with different surf boards and techniques.

• The importance of self-awareness, personal growth, and the impact of social conditioning on relationships was discussed, with Matt sharing his journey of self-improvement and the dissolution of a long-term relationship.

• Matt highlighted the benefits of surfing as a fountain of youth, citing examples of older surfers who maintain their fitness and enthusiasm for the sport.

• The conversation explored the use of wave pools for surfing training, with Matt sharing his experiences at various wave pools and their benefits for coaching and skill development.

• The discussion concluded with insights on the seasonal approach to life and surfing, emphasizing the importance of experiencing different seasons and the value of winter for mental consolidation and growth. 

Outline

Surfing During the Pandemic

• Beaches and surfing have been restricted due to COVID-19 lockdowns.

• Frustration arises from not being able to surf while crowded supermarkets remain open.

• Challenges of social distancing and exposure risks in grocery stores are compared to the relative safety of surfing alone in the ocean.

Life Under Lockdown

• Various ways people are coping with being stuck at home during the pandemic are discussed.

• This includes homeschooling children, limiting screen time, learning new skills like instruments, and dealing with relationship challenges when quarantined together.

• Encouragement is given to embrace meditation, online learning, and at-home fitness to stay active and positive during this time.

Upcoming Podcast Episode

• An interview with Matt Granger will be released soon.

• The discussion covers surf culture and recalls a recent incident at a local surf spot where an inexperienced surfer dropped in, leading to a confrontation.

• Reflections on changing etiquette and attitudes in surfing, particularly around Los Angeles, are prompted.

Matt Granger Interview

• The interview begins by covering various topics related to surfing and personal growth.

• Recent surfing activities, including foil surfing and trips to locations like Cloud Break and Macaronis, are discussed.

• The unique experience of foil surfing, its challenges, and how it has impacted regular surfing are described.

Personal Growth and Lifestyle Changes

• Recent personal changes, including a separation from a spouse of 26 years, are opened up about.

• A journey of self-improvement, embracing meditation, reading psychology books, and focusing on personal growth is discussed.

• The importance of honesty with oneself and letting go of ego is emphasized.

Surfing Philosophy and Culture

• Various aspects of surf culture, including the differences between competitive and free surfing, are touched upon.

• The importance of respecting others in the water is highlighted.

• The relationship between surfing and broader life lessons is explored.

• Anecdotes from experiences coaching and surfing in different locations around the world are shared.

Wave Pools and Artificial Surfing

• Experiences surfing in various wave pools, including Kelly Slater's Surf Ranch, Waco, and Melbourne's URBNSURF, are discussed.

• Different technologies and experiences are compared, noting the pros and cons for training and coaching purposes.

Meditation and Mindfulness

• Meditation and mindfulness practices are discussed as the interview concludes.

• Experiences with different meditation techniques, apps, and how these practices have impacted lives and surfing are shared.

Surfing Etiquette and Community

• Throughout the conversation, there is an underlying theme of surf etiquette and community.

• The importance of respect in the water is emphasized.

• Leaving one's ego 'on the sand' is discussed.

• Surfing can teach valuable life lessons about patience, humility, and connection with nature and others.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
The show! The Stay at Home Mastery podcast. Who would have thought they took surfing. The man has closed the beaches. Surfing is illegal. You want to seek solace? You want to social distance yourself in the ocean away from... No, you can't. Because the man is out there stopping you. Or maybe you've lived close to the beach and you can sneak out. Maybe you don't live in a crazy concrete jungle close to the sand like me where the man is just doing nothing but stopping people going into the ocean. Or you can go into the supermarket. Not only can you go, you have to go to the supermarket. At least you just have to. You have to go to the cesspit of germs that is the supermarket. You've got these people walking around without face masks, coughing on everything, touching everything. But you can't go surfing. I was in the supermarket the other day and I just wanted to grab one pack of grated cheese and there's this old lady just standing there looking at all the cheese, touching—she must have picked up eight different packs—wondering, without a face mask. This is yesterday, peak week. These mouth breathers. I have to stand and wait to choose. I've got to put myself amongst that. Her touching every piece, every packet of cheese in the aisle. Not to mention the supermarket workers who are exposed to these people all day, every day, who pack the shelves. I got to go in there and touch all that stuff. Social distancing in the supermarket is a joke because they only enforce it right by the checkout. Everyone else is walking around trying to get by you, no face masks on. Yeah, yet I can't go surfing. I can't go down to my local beach where no one is and go surfing. But anyway, such is life. There's not much we can do. So what are you? You're stuck at home? You're self-isolating? Are you sick? Are you quarantined? Are you stuck at home with your loved ones? Are you embracing it? Are you learning an instrument? Or are you just watching Netflix? Are you a parent of young kids and you're pretty much doing a crash course in homeschooling? Wow, that gives you... That's what I'm doing. That gives you a very deep appreciation of teachers and childcare workers. Wow. That has not been easy. And we are avoiding screen time as well. That makes it even harder. Stuck in your house. We have a backyard, thankfully. But yeah, very limited screen time. Just been homeschooling and doing little projects.

Michael Frampton
So that's why I haven't had much time to edit previously recorded episodes. But I've got one coming up. I thought I'd do a little extended intro. A bit of a rant. Assuming as you guys have probably got time to listen. How are you listening? Did you jump in your car? Are you driving your car? Did you have to get out of the house? Did you have to go for a drive to listen to some music and catch up on a few podcasts? Or are you lying in bed with your loved one and just tuning in? Are you quarantined with someone you like or someone you loathe? Are you newlyweds at home honeymooning, staycation honeymooning, living the dream? Or did you move in with a workaholic who you absolutely loved in small doses but now they're working from home or they've been fired and you're stuck at home with someone you have just recently learned to loathe? And you're sitting there just grimacing and gritting your teeth waiting for this pandemic to be over so you can find a new place to live? Or were you just on the edge, on the brink of a conscious uncoupling and then boom, stuck at home with her or him? Are you gritting your teeth and just waiting? Yes honey, how was your situation? Are you alone? You live alone and you're used to people coming around and going out and visiting, now you can't and you're feeling lonely? How are you? Embrace it, there's nothing we can do. This too will pass. Good time to start meditating if you don't already. Get into meditation, learn an instrument, get into music. Amazon will deliver you a guitar or a keyboard tomorrow, get into it. There are plenty of online lessons. Matty Scorange of The Art of Surfing has just released his online surf learning thing. So you can still learn about surfing, there's plenty to learn about. Go back through the archives of this podcast. Episode 5 was when I interviewed Matty Scorange, The Art of Surfing, on Instagram. And yeah, he's just released his online program, so go and check that out. Look at my Instagram story for links to that. Chris Mills, the Surf Strength Coach, the Surf Athlete App. Keep fit, keep active, get rid of those little niggles you've been carrying around for a while. Just stay fit and strong, because when this is over there will be a swell. So yeah, don't laze around watching Netflix, HBO, Disney Plus. Gone through all that. Did you watch Tiger King, like everyone else? New season of Ozark just came out. Westworld. What else is—what else was good? What else have you been watching? Barry. Barry, that's a good one. I got into Barry. Nice dark comedy. Love my dark comedy. Curb Your Enthusiasm. Got through that as well. It's genius. Silly genius. The Bill Burr Podcast. Been listening to a lot of Bill Burr. The Monday Morning Podcast. One of my favorites. What else is going on? I got some poison. I got poison oak. I was stung by some poison oak. That's gnarly. You do not—if you're new to America and/or you're visiting America and you want to go on a hike, learn what poison oak is and stay away from it. It is gnarly. I got stung by it like a week ago and it didn't even show up till like two days later and then I'm a week in and it's just, it's horrible. Last night I woke up at two in the morning, just woke up to me scratching myself just in this itchy fit and I've scratched all the scars off my leg. There you go. So yeah, watch out for poison oak. What else? The interview I'll be releasing after this extended rant is one with Matt Granger. I just finished editing it and we talk about the surf culture a little bit and reminded me of a story actually happened like three weeks ago just before this whole pandemic. I was surfing one of my spots around the corner. Actually it was about a week after the pandemic started and there were a few beaches that hadn't been closed so everyone was congregated there. I pulled up and watched it for a little bit as I was suiting up and there was—it wasn't that busy but there were a lot of out-of-towners, a lot of, what do they call them? Bows. Beginner, adult, learner. Learner. Yeah, there’s a lot of bows out there sitting on the shoulder and I was looking out there and there was a nice little peak coming in, a little shifty tricky peak right out the back of one of my favorite waves around, and I thought I'll just paddle out there and pick off a few. So I did that, sitting out the back right on the spot. No one else was sitting out there. Everyone else was sitting on the shoulder. Scratched into a wave. Beautiful little wave. Caught it right as it was breaking perfectly, and Mr. Bow, Mr. Beginner Adult Learner, just sat there and waited for it—waited for the shoulder of the wave to come to him—and then just blatantly dropped in on me. Completely avoiding any social distancing respect, and I just gently nudged him off. Just reached out and sort of pushed the nose of his soft top away and surfed the wave. As I was paddling back out he gives me the dirtiest look and I just looked at him and said, what? You dropped in on me. And he goes—and then he just says, but that wave was coming straight towards me, it was my wave. And usually in that situation I would just keep my head down and not even acknowledge and just—but I just, it was a stressful time and I snapped at him. I sat there and I was like, what? And I just said, you know what? No. The wave broke out there. I've been surfing for 20 years learning how to read waves and I had the nous to sit out there and catch it from where it was breaking. Mate, you need to learn how to do that. You don't just drop in on people because you think it's your turn. Anyway, I thought it was quite funny. I was thinking to myself, it's so funny that—and this is certainly not California at all, this is just around LA—there's this beginner adult learner entitlement attitude in the surf and you know, some people blame leg ropes and leashes, you know, you've seen the t-shirt: leashes ruin surfing.

Michael Frampton
Well no, CCTV ruined surfing and soft tops ruined surfing. Now, honestly, like, I mean, if that dude had done that to one of the locals at that beach, you know, 15 years ago, he would have got a stern word and he would have put his tail between his legs and learnt respect in the lineup and learnt that, you know what? If I want my wave, I'm gonna have to learn how to catch the wave from where it breaks. That's how surfing works. But that lesson just doesn't get learnt anymore. If he chose not to take that lesson and kept dropping in on the local who was better than him, then he might have got, might have got a tap on the nose. And you can't do that with CCTV anymore. It's—and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just being silly. It's, you know, there's not much you can do about it. Don't take anything I say seriously.

Michael Frampton
Be nice, be kind out in the water, leave your ego on the sand. Leave your ego on the sand, seriously. But as a—if you're a beginner adult learner out there with a soft top, you—like, there's a certain—you’re just gonna have to, sometimes you gotta play the game a little bit. You can't expect to catch the best waves of the day. You can’t just sit there on the shoulder and think that someone’s gonna give you a turn. That’s not how it works. You know, there’s plenty of beach breaks around where you can go and practice your pop-ups and learn how to read waves before you go out to some of the pumping points here and try and compete with people that have been surfing the waves as well for 15 years. Yeah, people just taking advantage of CCTV, basically. But hey, it's just the way it is. What do you think, listeners? What’s your take? Has anyone else got an opinion on the surf culture and around LA? You know, I've surfed in other places in California. It's not like that. It's much more respectful and, yeah, it's just respectful, you know? Anyway, in that situation I just ended up paddling down the beach and surfing a different part of the wave. I just don't want to hang around people like that, basically. It's not worth it. That attitude is just so bizarre, I find it.

Michael Frampton
It's not what surfing should be about, really. Like, it used... I mean, when I was growing up surfing, if someone paddled around me and paddled 30 feet away from me and I was sitting there staring at the horizon with my mouth opened, thinking about whatever, instead of being actively paddling around the lineup trying to read the ocean, if that person was doing that and then caught a really good wave and the shoulder came right towards me, I wouldn't... You just don't blatantly drop in on because you think it's your turn. You look at the guy and you go, wow, what... Give him a compliment, you know? Say, you ripped that wave to shreds, and then he might give you, actually give you the next wave. That's how it works.

Matt Grainger
I don't know.

Michael Frampton
But, you know, I've surfed other parts of California. It's much different. It's much more, what do you call it, old-school. Much more respectful. That was a bit of a rant. Anyway, today's episode is with Matt Granger. This will be Matt's third appearance on the show, and I thought it was an appropriate interview to release during this pandemic. I recorded it a few months ago when I was back in Australia and, yeah, Matt really opens up and we get deep and philosophical, and big thanks to Matt for doing it and being vulnerable and honest and all that. And Matt's actually been... If you go to Matt Granger's Instagram, Manly Surf School and the Surfers Gym—I’ll put links on my Instagram post to his stuff—but he's been putting out some free surf-inspired workouts on his Instagram. So if you're at home, isolated, and looking at ways to keep fit and mobile, there's another resource for you. Foiling?

Matt Grainger
Foiling, yeah, probably twice. At first we were doing like seven days a week, and now maybe three days a week. My bombies are just made for it.

Michael Frampton
Big wave foiling. Yeah, so it's all ski-based?

Matt Grainger
Big and small. Tom comes out. There's a whole bunch of us. We're about four skis between us and we just share. Yeah, I do a bit of paddling like Tom, like paddling to like little... You need a little chip-in, like a little bit of foam, and then you get up and then away you go. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Just different feeling. Yeah, replace doing a big hack or a tube.

Michael Frampton
Everyone seems to. But you can't.

Matt Grainger
You can't get tubed in a foil because you just get flipped. Not yet. Not yet. Until they get the wings smaller or whatever. But yeah, you're just—it's going so fast, you just outrun it.

Michael Frampton
Hey, how would you get barreled on a foil? You'd have to kind of get a weird angle and run through it or something?

Matt Grainger
Almost. Yeah, we were at Mac*** one day and we’re almost—but you went like that, like yeah, like you said, you wanted to go down here and as it was barreling come up around the boil and then sort of get—you couldn't, nothing like a normal barrel. But you're flying. Don’t stop, we're gonna fall.

Michael Frampton
Looks so gnarly that you posted a cut on your head. Yeah, that was a good one, hey?

Matt Grainger
That was a good advertisement not to, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Do it. Yeah. You probably don't want to sell it either.

Matt Grainger
I wasn’t selling it. No. No. No, exactly. Don’t want to actually. Don’t want to. I don’t want to teach it. It’s too gnarly. And it’s so hard. Yeah, so hard. Why? Foiling is just real intricate, so you just slight little movements and you're actually trying to keep the foil down.

Michael Frampton
Is it so hard? Is it such like fine-tuned?

Matt Grainger
Like you know how you see a run, you think you pull it up, but you actually want to keep it down. When you turn you're just doing these tiny little movements and you've got to lock your ankles. But it actually helps your surfing because you start surfing flow, like with flow. You start not trying to over-surf the wave. Yeah, you look at different angles too, different parts of the wave to get speed. Whereas growing up in the 80s, you just wanted to hack.

Michael Frampton
So it's super, like super touchy.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Really touchy. Like if you just put any bit of effort, like pressure, it'll just—it'll throw you off. So it's just like you're doing the most longest drawn-out cutback of your life, pretty much. Just holding that position, like for ages. So yeah, it’s helped my surfing for sure. And like trying to surf with less effort and trying to get graceful as you get older.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, fine-tune it. So then you can kind of get that—you just smaller movements from the stance and surfing.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, and less is more. Trying to—not that I'd surf anywhere like Parko—but trying to emulate Parko, if that makes sense, or Steph Gilmore with those beautiful lines. Trying to get the hands even a little bit tighter and not so flamboyant.

Michael Frampton
What else has been happening in your surfing world?

Matt Grainger
Surfing world, yeah, we changed the gym to the Surfers Gym instead—rebranded.

Michael Frampton
Rebranded?

Matt Grainger
And just trying to make it more accessible for everyone. And I think, even with my own headspace, I've got—I'm still coaching competitive surfers—but just having more enjoyment, like just working on technique and fun and riding different boards. You know, been riding lots of Town and Country's like 80s models. So Gunther Rohn’s been shaping them. So got this nice low rail with a flat deck. So it's pretty much a copy of Nicky Wood's board that he won Bells on in the 80s. So he's got that model. He's thrown out all the bad stuff and then put back in the good stuff. So a little bit of tail rocker and got all the cool 80s sprays, pinks and yellows and stuff. It's pretty cool. And yeah, had some good sessions on that at Cloud Break. I had a good session with Tommy Carroll and Hedgie in Cloud Break. Went over four days for a swell. That was unreal. A couple of Macaroni Stripe and then another trip with Taz and Bella back to Cloud Break. So nothing—no big germ and stuff this year—but the foil, foil's been insane. Heaps of—yeah, heaps of fun, just narrowbeam and longies. Just had nothing like mental, but just every day you can surf and doing a lot of body movement, surf movement.

Michael Frampton
Sweet. Like what were you—what are you studying in that?

Matt Grainger
Like the Gymnastica Naturale. Rodrigo, he's actually painted a surf movement. Have you seen his stuff?

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
So I did the certification with him, level one. I did that six weeks ago, and then I'm putting that into the gym as well. Cool. Cool stuff. Yeah. And you can just do all those—you know, those flows that I still with you. And then he's got cool names for them and stuff. And it was—and I'm relearning again, like trying to—I was looking at it going, some of the movements, like how am I going to teach that? ‘Cause it looks too hard. And then eventually, you know, like anything, repetition, and he's a great coach. Like he's all about the posture and the sort of—that's helped with the foiling and just feel really light and strong.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I met him, he was on a DNS course that I was doing in the States. Cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Grainger
It was good. Yeah. Good guy, hey. Yeah, and he's been doing Jiu Jitsu his whole life. I got my black belt the other day.

Michael Frampton
I saw that. Yes. That's cool. Congrats.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, thanks. So the 12 years.

Michael Frampton
Wow.

Matt Grainger
So black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which is pretty amazing. I mean, I was always wanting to get there, but it's a long road, you know. Broke my arm when I was a blue belt. Yeah. We kept going, kept turning up, but we're just getting smarter now. We're not trying to kill each other. Like anything, like mastery—surfing, you know, Jiu Jitsu—trying to surf smarter. So, that's it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, Jiu Jitsu, you have—so no, just a broken arm was the only...

Matt Grainger
Broken arm. No. Yeah, pretty lucky here. Our gyms aren't as crazy as probably the US, not getting the numbers. And yeah, my coach is Peter King. He cleans the mats every day. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, so it's just been a crazy year, like just looking a bit more reflective, bit of—a lot, actually—of just self-improvement and just working on yourself, and worked out that, you know, you can only work on yourself first, you know, to help others. You can't control the uncontrollables. So always in life, especially with kids and that, you're always—especially with my young kids, and I've only grown up now. So I probably basically worked on myself, and then I worked it out and I said to the kids, just as long as you're awesome people and get an education, do whatever you want. You know, just look at that life in a different way. Yes. It's been a bit of a massive growth year. Yeah. Reading a lot, psychology, meditating, still doing the ice baths, doing the Wim Hof, loving that. Surfing in boardies a lot in the cold. Yeah, just, you know, when it's, you know, it's like, you know you're not going to go for a four-hour surf. So you just go out for 40 minutes and just freeze your balls off. You paddle around like a maniac and feel—come in invigorated.

Michael Frampton
Even in winter?

Matt Grainger
Yeah. I was doing some winter ones. Yeah. And just—people go, what, are you crazy? And it's funny how you get used to it. Like Wim says, like just the sensitivity on your skin and you can block it out, and you just got to keep paddling and you catch a lot of waves and your body feels amazing. You get that little shiver at the end and it's kind of like—sets you up for the day. You've been doing stuff like that?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I do. Good reset, isn’t it?

Matt Grainger
It is.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And getting into the ice baths as well. Yeah. Once a week.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I haven’t pushed past five minutes yet though.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
But...

Matt Grainger
I did the—actually did the course, and I've done about four Wim Hof courses this year with this guy called Johannes. He's a legend. He's a free diver as well. Yeah. And he was saying, you know, it's our human nature to try to get these long times. But he said, yeah, five is pretty much kind of do damage.

Michael Frampton
That’s all you need. Yeah. I found that if you push, like you can, you get to the stage where it's kind of like—it’s comfortable when you're in the zone. And as soon as you start to feel like cold...

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
If you push past that too much, it just takes so long to warm up.

Matt Grainger
And it's—yeah, he said it's not going to give you any benefits. It's just your ego. Yeah, it's just our ego. We've got to win and we've got to get a time and stuff like that. That's where I've kind of gone with my life too. Just, yeah, just not so—not trying so hard. Just—it all sort of falls into place. Yeah. You know, just let—sound like a bit of a hippie now, but...

Michael Frampton
It's all good.

Matt Grainger
But let, yeah, just let things flow. Kind of work itself out.

Michael Frampton
Hardship helps.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, it does.

Michael Frampton
I've been taking a lot of people—I've been putting a lot of people in the ice bath, just watching how different people react to it.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Such a good test of character.

Matt Grainger
I know. Like doing those courses with Johannes and like people were like so fearful. Freaking—like one girl brought a wetsuit and he's going, no, you can't wear that. And just, it's amazing. Yeah, they're just—whereas, you know, you and I, we surf cold water with surfing. So you kind of got it pretty easy there. You feel amazing afterwards, hey?

Michael Frampton
You do. Yeah.

Matt Grainger
But it's that fear. I can't believe people have that fear.

Michael Frampton
It's not—it’s hard though. Every time, like the first 30 seconds...

Matt Grainger
Yeah, it's always hard.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
That's what's good about it. Hey, it's never easy. And you think ones that are easy—I did one with Hedgy up the coast. That was pretty cool. And he just—he got it off Mick Fanning and you're like, you know, you close your eyes and you get in the zone. He's got like these cold water bottles and he just pours it on your head when you're not ready.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Or he comes and fluffs the water up. You know when you move, you get colder. So you'll be there and you go, this is awesome, and I've got this and I'm just getting in the zone. And you feel this cold water trickling on your head and you're like—and then you see Hedgy laughing. And then he's like, flicks the water as well. He's like, fuck Hedgy. Yeah. Getting uncomfortable, hey.

Michael Frampton
You're learning to stay calm in the uncomfort. Because the only real fear that we have in life is fear of death.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
That's the only real fear, right? Yeah. It's the fear of actually physically dying. Yeah. Every other fear is irrelevant.

Matt Grainger
Exactly.

Michael Frampton
So when you hop into an ice bath, it's real. Like if someone wants to strap you in there, yeah, you die. You could die. Yeah, easy. If someone strapped you in there.

Matt Grainger
Big wave comes, like a monster closeout at Waimea Bay or something, you've got to just go, well, I've got to deal with it right now. Real, like really well. Yeah. If you don't, you're just going to get...

Michael Frampton
Thrashed. Yeah. Well, the best way to try and survive is stay calm. Just...

Matt Grainger
Yeah. And all that stuff I learned with Nam was really cool when I did that internship with Nam Baldwin, and he was more about just—it wasn't about the breath hold, it was about being calm. And that's where I think a lot of people get messed up. I mean, even like, I think the last podcast where I was with you and we were talking about with all my mates, we were being psychos. And when we flipped it—when you flip your brain and make it fun, you're not so scared. And then same deal, as we can do it with breath or whatever, just to artificially change your brain through breathing or laughter or whatever. And then suddenly it's not that bad.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
It's all made up in your head. And it's funny, like, I don't know, that's a lot of stuff I've been reading about. And it's funny how at the end of the day, the thoughts and feelings aren't real. You just made them up.

Michael Frampton
They're just judgments.

Matt Grainger
Once you get to that, you're like, yeah, right. You're like, yeah, that crazy thought, I just made it up. It's not even real. Same as when you're scared. Like when you said when you're fully scared and in a crazy moment, if you just handle it really well, you're like, that wasn't too bad. There's that little quick little shit moment. I remember it was at Waimea Bay once and it went black, like a bomb set came, and there was just only five of us out. And I just—because it's a big wave, you know, it's a big wave—and I was just like, I'm just going to go, and I'm going to go, and I'm going to go... and it wasn't even scary. Whereas before, like an hour before that, we were shit scared. We were going around the lip, like weren't really getting deep in the barrel. And then as soon as you flipped it in your brain, it felt like three foot. And that was an hour, you know. It's funny, the mind. And yeah, I've been doing that even with my beginner coaching, intermediate coaching, just trying to teach them about the five-second in-breath, five-second out-breath—simple stuff, just simple stuff for them. And just explaining how you can just calm yourself down. Because you know, like a beginner, three foot's like probably 20 foot for us. Yeah, like they've never been in the ocean, they're freaking out. So just as soon as you can do that, people don't even know how to just—I even get them to hold their hands sometimes and just dive under. And I said, look up. And they're like, what? Look up, open your eyes. And then they understand it then. And it's like, right, because they haven't even dived under a wave before. So all that sort of stuff, we forget, hey, as coaches or, you know, give them a board and a wettie and teach them how to stand up, but they don't even know what to do when a set comes.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, or stay calm when it—yeah, when they get ragged.

Matt Grainger
What about yourself? You've been doing breath hold stuff?

Michael Frampton
I haven't, man. I've been living in Malibu. The waves get head high at best. We get a few double overhead days in the winter, but I mean, I haven't traveled for anything serious, so I haven't been motivated to do breath holds. So no, I've been riding just different—I've been riding longboards, fishes. I've got an 11-foot glider.

Matt Grainger
Sick.

Michael Frampton
I've just been messing around with different boards for small, long-period point breaks basically. So that's been my surfing thing.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. That was cool. I actually went with Hedgy and Tom to a big swell to Cloudbreak, and it was good because Tom, because he's a meditation master now, we did meditation at five in the morning. And we just—usually we'd just be grabbing the boards and going—and that helped heaps too. And even the guys who'd never done meditation before, some of the guys with us. Yeah, just those situations where you're about to get flogged, just going, all right, I've just done some kind of—did some breath hold stuff with Tom and then we did Vedic meditation, and that helped the guys too. Like just, okay, just calm down. It's okay. And yeah, you look at all the best athletes, aren't they? Pretty much all the ones that are level, aren't they?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, for sure.

Matt Grainger
The ones that are up and down like a yo-yo, they're just too emotional.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And then especially, look at the—you've got a team full of amazing athletes like that, and you've got the captain who's next level calm.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, exactly.

Michael Frampton
To make decisions and organize the team and still play amazing. Yeah, that's next level.

Matt Grainger
Next level. Yeah, so that was cool. And that was a hot trip. We were just waxing the boards up, just watching these big barrels. Hedgy had two jet skis organized too, like for pickups. So we could just go hard, go as hard as you could. And just being there with Tom, watching his style, you know, just saw him do an airdrop, come off the bottom and do this big snap, just sort of like the Pipe snap kind of thing. And you're just like—I just said to Hedgy, I'm just stoked just to see that turn. I can go home now. Just seeing—his style's just timeless, hey? And it's kind of even got better, like he's got better boards. And then Hedgy was ripping too with his style. And we were just pushing each other, just in a nice way, you know, just hooting each other into bombs and getting smashed, riding bigger boards, paying out on each other.

Michael Frampton
How big of boards are you riding now?

Matt Grainger
I was riding an 8.0, Hedgy riding a 9. I think Tommy was on an 8.6.

Michael Frampton
Wow. So it was a good size?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, it was serious. Like triple overhead Cloudbreak. Yeah, on the third ledge. And it had a bit of wind too, so you just had to put the head down and go. And there were some guys sitting in the second ledge, but you get—and the first ledge, probably the first ledge, sorry—and you get like crazy barrels there, but you just get smashed. Like you're just basically playing cat and mouse the whole time. Whereas my plan was just go right around, sit the furthest out, deepest, furthest, and just wait. And it worked because you just catch one. And then you end up coming through that first ledge anyway and get barreled. So you just sort of take off, like you just take off, do a few cutties, and then hit the barrel section. So I got this magic 8.0 from JS and he actually got it made for Cloudbreak for Parko and Ace. They got two boards made after that massive swell, the Volcom comp, after that. So they got some boards made and then I spoke to JS and said, well—he goes, can I—and I said, just copy that. And it's magic. It's thick and yeah, it was really cool. Some big barrels. And then we'd come back and we'd surf Restaurants on the way in. We'd have our 6.0s on the board. We had our own boat, so we had like—man, there was probably like 30 boards on the boat. So it was cool. And we'd come in on the way in and just go from 8.0s to 6.0s and just surf these little hot dog barrels. You know, it's still six foot and heavy, but yeah, so that was a cool trip, hanging out with the goofies. Yeah, it's cool because Hedgy turned 40 this year. I turned 50 and Tom's just almost, I think, what's he, maybe 57 or something. So it's kind of cool. We're like all goofies, all mates, and just almost 10 years apart. And our lives are kind of like—Tom's 10 years ahead of me and then Hedgy 10 years behind. Like he had his 40th. So yeah, it's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Really good relationship with those guys and just froth—team froth. And they're fit and healthy, you know? Yeah, so that's what I've learned too. You just want to just keep that body, just keep your body and mind. You want to be surfing until you're 80.

Michael Frampton
You're learning to stay calm in the uncomfort. 'Cause the only real fear that we have in life is fear of death.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
That's the only real fear, right? Yeah. It's the fear of actually physically dying. Yeah. Every other fear is irrelevant.

Matt Grainger
Exactly.

Michael Frampton
So when you hop into an ice bath, it's real. Like if you were to—if someone wants to strap you in there—yeah, you die. You could die. Yeah, easy. If someone strapped you in there.

Matt Grainger
Big wave comes, like a monster closeout at Waimea Bay or something, you've got to just go, well, I've got to deal with it right now. Real, like really well. Yeah. If you don't, you're just going to get calm.

Michael Frampton
Thrashed. Yeah. Well, the best way to try and survive is stay calm. Just...

Matt Grainger
Yeah. And all that stuff I learned with Nam was really cool when I did that internship with Nam Baldwin, and he was more about just—it wasn't about the breath hold, it was about being calm. And that's where I think a lot of people get messed up. I mean, even like, I think the last podcast where I was with you and we were talking about with all my mates, we were being psychos. And when we flipped it, when you flip your brain and make it fun, you're not so scared. And then same deal, as we can do it with breath or whatever, just to artificially change your brain through breathing or laughter or whatever. And then suddenly it's not that bad. Yeah. It's all made up in your head. And it's funny, like, I don't know, that's a lot of stuff I've been reading about. And it's funny how at the end of the day, the thoughts and feelings aren't real. You just made them up.

Michael Frampton
They're just judgments.

Matt Grainger
Once you get to that, you're like, yeah, right. You're like, yeah, that crazy thought—I just made it up. It's not even real. Same as when you're scared. Like when you said when you're fully scared and in a crazy moment, if you just handle it really well, you're like, that wasn't too bad. There's that little quick little shit moment. I remember it was at Waimea Bay once and it went black, like a bomb set came, and there was just only five of us out. And I just—because it's big waves, you know, it's a big wave—and I was just like, I'm just going to go, and I'm going to go, and I'm going to go... and it wasn't even scary. Whereas before, like an hour before that, we were shit scared. We were going around the lip, like weren't really getting deep in the barrel. And then as soon as you flipped it in your brain, it felt like three foot. And that was an hour, you know. It's funny, the mind. And yeah, I've been doing that even with my beginner coaching, intermediate coaching, just trying to teach them about the five-second in breath, five-second out breath—simple stuff, just simple stuff for them. And just explaining how you can just calm yourself down. Because you know, like a beginner, three foot's like probably 20 foot for us. Yeah, like they've never been in the ocean, they're freaking out. So just as soon as you can do that, people don't even know how to just—I even get them to hold their hands sometimes and just dive under. And I said, look up. And they're like, what? Look up, open your eyes. And then they understand it then. And it's like, right, because they haven't even dived under a wave before. So all that sort of stuff we forget, hey, as coaches or, you know, give them a board and a wettie and teach them how to stand up, but they don't even know what to do when a set comes.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, or stay calm when it—yeah, when they get ragged.

Matt Grainger
What about yourself? You've been doing breath hold stuff?

Michael Frampton
I haven't, man. I've been living in Malibu. The waves get head high at best. We get a few double overhead days in the winter, but I mean, I haven't traveled for anything serious, so I haven't been motivated to do breath holds. So no, I've been riding just different—I’ve been riding longboards, fishes. I've got an 11-foot glider.

Matt Grainger
Sick.

Michael Frampton
I've just been messing around with different boards for small, long-period point breaks basically. So that's been my surfing thing. Yeah.

Matt Grainger
That was cool. I actually went with Hedgy and Tom to a big swell to Cloudbreak, and it was good because Tom, because he's a meditation master now, we did meditation at five in the morning. And we just—usually we'd just be grabbing the boards and going—and that helped heaps too. And even the guys who'd never done meditation before, some of the guys with us. Yeah, just those situations where you're about to get flogged, just going, all right, I've just done some kind of—did some breath hold stuff with Tom and then we did Vedic meditation, and that helped the guys too. Like just, okay, just calm down. It's okay. And yeah, you look at all the best athletes, aren't they? Pretty much all the ones that are level, aren't they?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, for sure.

Matt Grainger
The ones that are up and down like a yo-yo, they're just too emotional.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And then especially, look at the—you've got a team full of amazing athletes like that, and you've got the captain who's next level calm.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, exactly.

Michael Frampton
To make decisions and organize the team and still play amazing. Yeah, that's next level.

Matt Grainger
Next level. Yeah, so that was cool. And that was a hot trip. We were just waxing the boards up, just watching these big barrels. Hedgy had two jet skis organized too, like for pickups. So we could just go hard, go as hard as you could. And just being there with Tom, watching his style, you know, just saw him do an airdrop, come off the bottom and do this big snap, just sort of like the Pipe snap kind of thing. And you're just like—I just said to Hedgy, I'm just stoked just to see that turn. I can go home now. Just seeing—his style's just timeless, hey? And it's kind of even got better, like he's got better boards. And then Hedgy was ripping too with his style. And we were just pushing each other just in a nice way, you know, just hooting each other into bombs and getting smashed, riding bigger boards, paying out on each other.

Michael Frampton
How big of boards are you riding now?

Matt Grainger
I was riding an 8.0, Hedgy riding a 9. I think Tommy was on an 8.6.

Michael Frampton
Wow. So it was a good size?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, it was serious. Like triple overhead Cloudbreak.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, on the third ledge. And I had a bit of wind too, so you just had to put the head down and go. And there were some guys sitting in the second ledge, but you get—and the first ledge, probably the first ledge, sorry—and you get like crazy barrels there, but you just get smashed. Like you're just basically playing cat and mouse the whole time. Whereas my plan was just go right around, sit the furthest out, deepest, furthest, and just wait. And it worked because you just catch one. And then you end up coming through that first ledge anyway and get barreled. So you just sort of take off, like you just take off, do a few cutties and then hit the barrel section. So I got this Magic 8.0 from JS and he actually got it made for Cloudbreak for Parco and Ace. They got two boards made after that massive swell, the Volcom comp, after that. So they got some boards made and then I spoke to JS and said, well, he goes, can I—and I said, just copy that. And it's magic. It's thick and yeah, it was really cool. Some big barrels. And then we'd come back and we'd surf Restaurants on the way in. We'd have our six o's on the board. We had our own boat, so we had like, man, there was probably like 30 boards on the boat. So it was cool. And we'd come in on the way in and just go from 8.0s to 6.0s and just surf these little hot dog barrels. You know, it's still six foot and heavy, but yeah, so that was a cool trip, hanging out with the goofies. Yeah, it's cool because Hedgy—Hedgy turned 40 this year. I turned 50, and Tom's just almost, I think, what's he, maybe 57 or something. So it's kind of cool. We're like all goofies, all mates, and just almost 10 years apart. And our lives are kind of like Tom's 10 years ahead of me and then Hedgy 10 years behind, like he had his 40th. So yeah, it's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Really good relationship with those guys and just froth, team froth. And they're fit and healthy, you know? Yeah. So that's what I've learned too. You just want to just keep that body, just keep your body and mind. You don't want to be surfing until you're 80.

Michael Frampton
Why not? Keep—yeah.

Matt Grainger
Going. That's my goal. And the body movement stuff's insane. Still do some weights, like still pump weights as well. But the body movement's insane. And it's hard. Like I had my heart rate monitor and my heart rate was 157. But that was probably at the start when it wasn't as efficient. But it was, yeah, we were doing laps and laps of Rodrigo's gym at Holistic Movement. And I was just like, whoa. So that was cool. And it's kind of like I did the—remember I did the Ido Portal stuff? Yeah. When you got injured and I took your spot. It's kind of like that, but way better because it's related to surfing. So he's thrown out all the stuff that's not really relatable or a waste of time. So kind of doing stuff and he's got some moves in there. He's got this one like the grab rail and then it opens up the whole upper thoracic. So you've got balancing and strength. And then I'm so tight, as you know, when you used to train me like all around here on the shoulders and thoracic, just the upper region, just opening all that up. Hips are pretty good. But yeah, that's all you need. We just want loose hips, don’t we? Yeah. Loose hips.

Michael Frampton
Still frothing on surfing. It's good to hear.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Still—what have I got? I got a new board the other day. I got a good Turon Twin Fin and he's made these, like I said, the flat deck and the really pinched rails. So he reckons that the—which is pretty smart—like the best boards are the ones that the rails are almost catching. That makes sense. So you've got to really concentrate on your every turn. There’s a lot of boards today, like off the rack, quite soft rail so everyone can surf them. But those sort of lower rails kind of—I know we're on a podcast—but yeah, those kind of more pinched rail, if you know, if you fly through your turns, but you've just—as soon as you feel you're catching, you've got to just quickly adjust to the back foot so you don't dig a rail. And I think the foiling's helped too, because the foiling's so much concentration and the flow state on the foil is insane. It's almost—that’s why guys, you can see why guys and girls get addicted to it because it's almost the same feeling as tube riding.

Michael Frampton
Really?

Matt Grainger
Yeah. And you're not in the tube because there's so much going on through every turn and you're going so fast. And then you've got to go through—you’re going past—you can’t hit boils because you just get thrown. So you've always got to look for little bubbles on the wave and go around it. Your concentration level’s through the roof.

Michael Frampton
Wow.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Now that we're towing, we're going like 40 k's an hour and getting 700-meter rides. And then you're linking—you know, you might—you’re looking down, looking over there and there's like at Makaha at Long Reef, you're looking to your right and there's like a wave coming almost 300 meters away. And then you're going max speed and you actually go over to it and then do a turn off that. And then you come back to where you started and then do another turn there and then another turn. And I'll be out there with Leon or Bonetti or Tommy Carroll and that. And then you kind of look off, flick off the wave and put your hands over your head, like just flipping out. Just, what just happened?

Michael Frampton
Wow.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. So that's pretty cool.

Michael Frampton
So do you have to really read the water?

Matt Grainger
Read the water. Yeah. On another level. And because you're so high, you're probably like, you know, a few feet above the water, and then you've got this metal blade underneath you, and it's like a samurai sword. Plus I've been belted before, twice. Had six staples in the head. Then I got my face glued once, but that was not a good advertisement for foiling. I think I turned heaps of people off. So yeah, now I wear a helmet. Yeah. But yeah. And then I've got a board—it’s three foot six.

Michael Frampton
Wow. That's small.

Matt Grainger
It's really small. Yeah. That's a tow one. You couldn't paddle it. And I've got a 4'8 paddle prone board. So I haven't tried SUP. SUP would be fun too, but the boards are so long. But yeah, the swing weight—it’s cool, because you're basically just surfing on the actual foil. Yeah. You don't need that board. And Tom’s—sometimes his feet are like, his front foot's like three inches from the nose. Got that Tommy Carroll stance. And it's funny. Like you watch every guy go from surfing—yeah, when they start getting good at foiling, like Tommy's now and Leon—and you see their surfing style in the foil, but then they're going really drawn out and slow down. It's pretty cool.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. It's like their personality comes out.

Michael Frampton
Wow. And so when you come off, does it make surfing feel slower?

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Yeah. So those guys, the guys who don't surf or say they do it because it gets—everyone gets addicted to it. And they'll go, say they've just foiled for a month and then they go surfing. They can't do it. They're just like, I was so bad. And whereas I'm always froth. So I'll always just foil, I'll surf just before it or I'll go surf straight after. Even if it's shit, I'll just go out Northy on my short board. And you get used to it, but it's cool now because you've got this perception where you can get further across because you can do it on the foil. So it's funny—it transfers into your brain. Interesting. So sometimes you'll be on a wave and you think you're so far behind the section, but because you've been there on the foil, you just go, "I'm going to do a few pumps," and then you make it and you go, you back yourself. Yeah. You back yourself way more. And because you did like a minute and a half ride—some rides are like 700 meters—sometimes you get 20 rides. Some days, like when I first started doing it, my legs felt like timber. And it's crazy how your body just gets used to it. You know how you just—I’d never get a bit soft, don’t we, we're growing up—but like, I know you're not, but you know when you get—"No, I'm not going to get sore. I won't be able to do this tomorrow." And anyway, because you're having so much fun foiling, you forget. And then eventually it just goes away. So what—you just—you feel this, the new normal, isn’t it? Yeah. Says a lot. So yeah, like you'd be on your shorty, say at Northy now on a long left, and you've already done four turns, and then your fifth turn gets better, then your sixth turn gets better, then your seventh turn. Whereas before you'd say they'd be going—they'd get worse because it's all relatable surfing. And I see John doing it now. And I suppose it's just really good fitness and fun, and the pumping, you know, when you can pump back out. So I think on record now it’s five waves. So it's pretty cool. Like, you know—and it was a four-foot day, so you're already hanging on the first one and then pump back out, get another one. And you just like flick off the wave, just with your hands in the air, just going, "What happened?" But yeah, it's cool. Where I live, it's good because we've got a boat ramp there, and there's about four reefs that are perfect for towing and there's no one around. So you're not hurting anyone. But yeah, you see guys, there's no point going out with a crowd, and you actually don’t like—I hate if there are people in the water, I don't like taking my foil out. You don't need to. We got all these spots where—and the waves you want to surf on a foil, you wouldn't want to surf on a shortboard. I was with Tommy when we were coming in, it was two foot and absolutely terrible, and we're like hooting like little school kids, just going, "Look at that one!" The two-foot little mush burger.

Michael Frampton
It's inspiring.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. You should be pretty good where you are, I reckon.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
You got crowds and yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I mean, Laird's always doing it on the stand-up and he reads the lineup and the waves pretty well. He gets away with it.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. You kind of—you kind of just need a little foamy. It's weird. You actually do bodyboard takeoffs. Yes. You do a bodyboard takeoff. Yeah. Like if you were going to say it—so I was at Snapper or J'Bay—I was at Snapper and I was actually sitting where no one's surfing and catching the end section and catching a little bodyboard takeoff and then jump up and then try and find a deep hole. Yeah. So yeah, you could actually—I don't know if there are waves, I haven’t surfed around there. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
No, there’s spots to do it for sure. Yeah.

Matt Grainger
You just actually want a nice long wave with a big gutter in the middle with a chipping out the back, like crappy little closeout, bodyboard takeoff, and go for deep water. So it's like—you’ve got to switch your brain. You’re looking for barrels and it's like, no, don’t want that. Worst ever.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Cool. Did you take the Groms to Macaronis?

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Took Taz and Bella to Maccas and they were charging, and then they came to Cloudbreak as well, and then Bella got dry docked on the reef, which was—and then she was only riding a 5'8" and it was like 10 foot, and I said, "Go get my 6'2"." She said, "No." And then it was pretty cool. She went far after she got smashed—like she got washed on a dry reef and I had to go and help her over Shish Kebabs—and then took out the 6'2" and yeah, got some sick ones. Wow. Yeah. So the kids are growing up. It's good. Charging. Yeah. Bella's been cool. She's never worried about getting smashed. Wow. Even as a little girl. Yeah. She’d jump in the pool when we were Grommy—when she was a baby, like she'd just dive in and people thought she was drowning and she'd just float to the top. Couldn't even swim, get a little breath and go again, and then just did it. So yeah, she surfed like—even at, I think she was like 11, 10, 11, surfing like 10-foot Hawaii and not even scared. Yeah. And so I’ve seen her—she was at Greenbush when we were there too. And she's like—these big bombs are coming. And then she's like looking into barrels. I'm like, "Bella, get out of there. You're going to get smashed. What are you doing?" "I'm looking into the barrels." No. So yeah, that's pretty cool. And Taz, like—he's pretty big now. He's like 83 kilos. Wow. So yeah, he's surfing really cool style. And they’re not doing—they’re not really doing the comps at the moment, which is pretty good for me. I'm stoked. Yeah. So I’ve gone this full circle, like I was coaching Hedgy, but he's retired. I was coaching Cooper Chapman and he's kind of—he’s working really—he’s lost his sponsor. So he's got to work. So he works, does laboring for a builder and then travels. So he doesn't really have time for training anymore. And then I had Sandon Whittaker and all those guys. I went ahead from a massive squad and it’s just the way it’s all worked out. And I’m actually stoked because I'm actually just surfing for fun. I'm not going to comps because comps are cruel, so cruel. Like you can be the fittest guy or girl with the best board, being in the best peak condition, and you don’t get a wave, or they throw your heat out at high tide or, you know—usually the cream, always the cream rises to the top. But you as a coach, you're in that rollercoaster of emotions. Like they're ripping, you know, the first two days they're on fire, and then they have a shocker. And then the whole vibe of the whole day just goes down. And then you're part of that as well. So you're kind of living in their emotions. So it's a lot more even keel just going surfing, being—the whole idea why we surf is the fun and froth and, you know, ride different boards, body bash, whatever, you know, foil, ride a longboard. Don’t get caught up into all that bullshit of what board you ride. Just ride to different lines, ride single fins, twins and 80s boards. 80s boards. Yeah, competition surfing is awesome, but it’s draining. You know, early morning starts, you know, you’re in the corner, it’s pumping, but you can’t be there because you got to help the crew. And they know it's pumping, but they’re surfing a wave that’s not as good as the comp bank. And, you know, like, funny, like, you've got to be so determined now. Like the Brazilians are that good. So, you know, you've got to be—you’ve got to be a full animal. You got to be a Medina, you know, Italo, Toledo. You got to be so driven or you might as well just not turn up. If you don’t have the hunger, just—you’re not going to make it. So yeah, I’m just—I’m stoked. I just go on surf trips, get barreled, keep my body good, and just—way better. Yeah, it’s cool. Yeah. And then like seeing people get, you know, get fit at the gym and I do the classes with them. So if I'm doing the movement class, I do it with them and I'm getting a workout. And then I do a Wim Hof right at the end of the class on a Tuesday. So the Tuesday class is only an hour—it goes for an hour and a half because it’s so fun. And I actually froth on it because I do it with them. And then we just put on some meditation music, then I’ll do Wim Hof. And then if they want to do ice baths, they can. And I just go home buzzing. So yeah, it's good. Life’s good, man. It’s been—it’s taken. But you know, you got to have a bit of suffering, don’t you, to kind of look at where you got to change. So, you know, yeah, broke up with my wife over 26 years and we're still mates, and she’s an awesome person.

Michael Frampton
Life. Yeah, it's true.

Matt Grainger
But yeah, I just grew as a person. Yeah, just looked at what I needed to change. Yeah, as I said before, the best thing you can do is just work on yourself, work on your own journey, your own path. And that's it. And you just—it's pretty easy life if you don't lie to yourself. When you're not lying to yourself, it's so easy to live. So easy to just—and be totally, brutally honest with people. And life's easier. You know, it's fricking hard when you're doing this other shit. And then once you work that out, you go, I'll just be honest to myself, work on my own stuff. And then that just sort of transforms to everyone else. You teach them without saying anything.

Michael Frampton
Was meditation part of that journey for you?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, meditation. Yeah, heaps of meditation. A lot of books on psychology. Change, just—and just, yeah, just be more open. And I don't know, Bella calls me a hippie now, but it's funny. Like, all you can just give out is love. That's all. That's all you can do. And if people hate you or dislike what you're doing or whatever, that's it. That's their deal. And then once you work that out, it's just an easy path to walk, isn't it? Yeah, I'm getting all deep and spiritual on you, man.

Michael Frampton
It's good.

Matt Grainger
But yeah, it's cool. And then my kids—I don't even have to control them or try to control them. And it's a way better relationship. Like, my relationship with them is amazing now because I just let them do what they want. And all I do is just give them love. And that's all you can do. And yeah, because there's no point. People know when they stuff up, you know, within yourself. So there's no point judging other people. Just wasted energy for everyone. Wasted energy for me, wasted energy for them. Most people know when they stuff up. And it's cool to stop drinking beers and alcohol. And that was a huge one. And that was a cool one I learned. You know, like when you're totally sober, you have a bigger framework to work with your emotions. So when something goes wrong and you're totally sober, it's sort of like—not that, like I was saying before, I was never an alcoholic—but just it's always in you, that little bit of alcohol, that little bit. It's just a poison. And once that's gone—like I haven't had a drink in eight months now—you just, all this less inflammation. Like you train harder, you don't get problems in your joints and all that stuff. And then you can, you know, if there's a problem, you just solve it way better. You don't kind of do the quick and easy fix. You kind of think about it and ponder on it and make a better decision rather than just reacting. Yeah, just less reaction. Yeah. So that's cool. And, you know, with the coach, who's my black belt coach, Peter King, just with him and just—yeah, it's funny. And then you just, like, hanging out with Tom and Hedgie and Sharon and that, you're always talking about, yeah, just like more growth stuff. And you sort of get—you gravitate to people that are kind of on that journey.

Michael Frampton
You do.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. And then you kind of don't really hang out with the crew that really not going to improve you, which is sad in a way, but that's life. You've got to. And then I've actually had mates that are actually seeing more change and then followed me.

Michael Frampton
And you've inspired them.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, without even saying anything. That's good. Yeah. So that was pretty cool. Some guys are like, "I want to do what you're doing. It seems to be working." I'm like, "Yeah, no worries." "How do you do it?" It's not that hard.

Michael Frampton
Sounds like you did ayahuasca or something.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, that's pretty cool stuff too. I actually did waska a while back. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, you work on yourself, hey.

Michael Frampton
Where is this? It's hardship, right? Self-awareness.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. That's the thing. Everyone's too scared to make those changes, hey. Yeah, I mean, I know I was like lying to myself all the time. I knew that was a chink in my armor—it was alcohol. I knew it was a little chink there, and I had everything pretty much dialed, you know. And I was like, "I'm not going to be funny, I'm not going to be this." And then it changed. I was like, "Fuck, this is way better life." You know, and you go to a party and you're still as funny as you were, you know. There's all these weird things you made up in your head. Yeah, that you're going within yourself and learning, you know. Yeah, I sound like the waska. But yeah, it's—man, it teaches you yourself. It's your own teacher. Yeah. It doesn't matter. I mean, reading all the books and all that's cool and podcasts, and I learn heaps from podcasts. Love the Mike Tyson podcast. I don't know.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, Hotboxin'. That's pretty cool. He gets right in.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, he's had a massive change and yeah, it's right. Yeah. He just—yourself is the biggest teacher. And everyone knows—you can't—everyone knows, but they're just too scared to answer the—try to answer the questions.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Have you tried the waska?

Matt Grainger
I've done it once. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I did it once.

Matt Grainger
It's awesome, hey. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like Mike Tyson talks about—you have an ego death. You kind of—you realize that your ego—and much, and it sounds really deep now—but your body's just a vessel really. And it's just, your thoughts are just made up, your brain or your thoughts and feelings, you've just made them up, and you're just basically a vessel in the universe. Part of everything. Yeah. It's crazy. And then you just see stuff better. Like, you just look at nature—I'm like looking at it now—how amazing it is. It's just the simple stuff. And, you know, all those material possessions we kind of put place on—how important they are. That doesn't really matter. Like, home is—you get to—home's anywhere really. You know what I mean? As long as you got love around, home's anywhere. Sort of like, you know, you see a cool friend or someone and you actually see them overseas and you stay at their place, you feel at home. Whereas, and then we just put this big emphasis on the big house and all this kind of stuff. And then when you leave it, you go, it's actually—it's more refreshing. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty easy.

Michael Frampton
What happens if someone steals your favorite board though?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, that's pretty—yeah, that's a bummer. But the reason—because you like how it feels on the wave. It's true. You don't care about the possession and the monetary value, but you go, I wish I had that board because it would have done this on that wave. So that's kind of different.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. It's the feeling.

Matt Grainger
The feeling. Yeah. Surfing's so much on feeling, isn't it? And that's what's cool about the Wim Hof too. You get all those crazy feelings, like in your body when you're doing the deep breathing. Especially when you do those—we did ones where we did, I think for 40 minutes, a guided one, and this guy had music. Yeah. So just—it's gnarly.

Michael Frampton
Keep cycling through that breathing process for 40 minutes. Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Wow. And you actually trip out. Like you fully trip out.

Michael Frampton
Just that same 30—

Matt Grainger
He changes it. He'll direct it. And then he has, like, had a guy playing didgeridoo and drums and a singer, and we're on the floor. And having like 30 people in the room, you can feel their energy.

Michael Frampton
Wow.

Matt Grainger
They talk about that too, just having that collective energy. If you're just on your own, you don't really feel it. You can feel there are other people in the room, but you've got your eyes closed and you can feel their energy. And yeah, I was full-on crying and all sorts of stuff in one of them, like, you know, my mom's death and all that sort of stuff came to me, but it was kind of sad, and then it went to happy tears because I dealt with something that I probably had shoved away. Even though I went, you know, grieved and all that with my mom, but yeah, those ones are insane. Like, yeah, you go 40 minutes. So he'll even do like really fast and then drop it down slow and then fast and then slow. And then, you know, then you go—the deep ones right at the end—and then you do the breath hold. And then you do some with the breath hold with the in-breath and sometimes with the up-breath. Yeah. And then when you do the in-breath, you might even squeeze like your whole, like your perineum and everything, and then your head, and you let go, and you're just like, whoa. You're just like, yeah. You see people have these crazy experiences, and then we do the ice baths. So it's just kind of cool. It's a big day, like fun day out.

Michael Frampton
So is that like part of your awakening, that experience?

Matt Grainger
That was one of them. Yeah, it was one of them. It's been a lot. There's been a few. Yeah. Yeah, just kind of always open to that stuff. I just knew that I was like—it was funny when I first split up—I just, because I was alone. And then I just remember one day I was just so—I was alone. And then I knew that one thing I needed to work on first was just stopping drinking. Because, you know, it's a depressant, as we know. And, you know, I was like, I could go one way or the other. I'm going to go the good road, not the bad road. Because I'd seen mates go, you know, break up with their family and then go totally loose. I'm like, nah, I'm going to be true to myself and work on myself. And then just got right into that. And then just working, and just, you know, I did a lot of therapy and stuff like that, talking a lot, and that brought that out. So that was cool. And I've just grown from there.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. That sounds like your second awakening though. The first awakening was making the decision to dissolve a long-term relationship. Yeah. I mean, I've just been through the same thing.

Matt Grainger
Tough. Yeah, that's really hard.

Michael Frampton
So super tough. Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. It was lots of tears and what-ifs and what have I done and all those sorts of things. Like, yeah, it's gnarly. It's so—yeah, it's really heavy. Yeah, so that seems—even though it was only March—but it's like I've done so much work on myself, it seems a long time ago now. Yeah, it's crazy how you can—yeah. So that was a massive awakening. And then I just kept going on my own little journey of growth. Yeah, just reading on stuff, like working on growth, and yeah, just see things so totally different now. And you're just in that little bubble, just in that bubble of just—that was normal.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So your social conditioning is part of it. I think relationships are hard.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, definitely.

Michael Frampton
They're hard, and the thing is they change. Yeah. Like, I've been saying to my baby mama, we're going to be in a relationship for the rest of our lives because we have children together and we're friends, but it's just not romantic anymore.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
It's just changing the relationship, and the perception often is, no, it's broken. That's it. It's over. You're not allowed to—you know what I mean? It's really tough. That's, yeah, that's not the best way to deal with it.

Matt Grainger
When it's broken.

Michael Frampton
I didn't—

Matt Grainger
Think. And then it's—I remember speaking to this Brazilian elder, and he was saying, it's funny how when we get married, we're just so in love, and then we love that person because of those traits. And then as you see people in the relationship grow older, they start trying to change their partner. And that's so weird, because you didn't marry them because of that. And then now you're trying to change each other. What are you doing? We just got it all wrong. So they should just be thankful. Both partners should be thankful for having that person how they are. And then life changes, and then people do grow apart. They do have different interests, different ways of looking at the world. So then there's another option as well. And, you know, just things change. And it's pretty wild, isn't it? It is. Wild. Yeah. Especially being—yeah, just being a human, trying to be with that person forever.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. I was speaking to friends about that and just like, I don't—you know, a few of the older statesmen I know, they've said, yeah, like this—

Michael Frampton
This, this, this...

Matt Grainger
This slow down too, slow down.

Michael Frampton
This, this, this.

Matt Grainger
I was just 100 miles an hour. Still am, but certain times knowing when to chill out, when to sleep more. And I've always been good at sleeping, but it was hard with the kids when the kids were young. But now, you know, they're all 16, 18 now, get your sleep patterns back. That's key, isn't it? It's funny how you listen to all those—I mean, you look at some of those, like Greenfield's podcast.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Dave—is it Dave Asprey?

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Yeah, they're all good. I love them, but it's so funny how they always talk about being grounded and do this, do that, and you're like, yeah, well, it's pretty simple. Like, get a, you know, minimum eight hours. We walk around barefoot all the time. You know, we're out in the ocean, we're in the elements, different tide winds. Well, super lucky. And eat well, because you want to—you don't want to be too heavy for your board. You want to be able to get a good sleep pattern. Yeah, you want to be able to move. Pretty lucky being surfers. Like, how lucky are we? Like, you see all those old guys at the beach still look young, and the guys that look after themselves because they want to be able to surf. So we're so lucky we've got given that gift to surfing because there's just that motivational tool every day, and then you're in nature every day. You're looking—you watch the sunrise and you're grateful for that, you know. It's an onshore, and who cares? There's no one out, you know. I usually have just always looked at the positive stuff when I go surfing. Okay, it's like yesterday I surfed now at Northy with Sharon, and it was only us two out because it was 20 knots onshore. But it was three foot. One shot on the wave was sweet, wasn't it? But the good thing was, there wasn't 20 people out. Yeah, pretty lucky, you know, just being surfers. Just keep, you know, and you get to—you ride different boards, as you were talking about, for different waves. You ride a bigger board, you're not going to struggle on your little functional, you know, non-functional for that day, your little 5'10" by 18 and a half, 2 and a quarter. You're going to sink.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, very few people can make those boards work in all conditions.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, and then we got surf trips where we go to these beautiful spots.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, surfing's the fountain of youth.

Matt Grainger
White sands and sick reefs, and if the surf's no good, you go for a snorkel or, yeah, full fountain of youth, hey. Yeah, there was a guy out in Narrabee, his name's Dennis, he's always, he was always into horses, like basically he's a surfer, but he bred horses and all around, he'd race around the snowy mountains, whatnot. And he's like, he's 76—no, 78—and he still surfs, still gets to his feet, unreal. And then he won like a race in the Opens when he was 70 and then he was always, because he was so fit from surfing, didn't really have to train for the horses because he was fit, because he loved it. And now, I saw him the other day and he's been, this year, when it's tubing, he can't get to his feet quick enough, so he takes out like a bodyboard and surfs Northie Point, gets barreled. He's like, you're my inspiration. He goes, this is changing, this is going to give me another 10 years of surfing. I'm like, what? Wow. So he gets tubed on the bodyboard on sucky days and then when it's fatter, he rides his longboard. And he looks, mate, he looks like 60.

Michael Frampton
Wow. He's got to figure out how to keep that pop-up going into his 70s.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, the pop-up, keep those hips loose. So his hips are probably good from the horses, maybe, I don't know.

Michael Frampton
Maybe, yeah.

Matt Grainger
Because he's kind of rough terrain, so he's not sitting.

Michael Frampton
Slater will figure that out for us, I think.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, for sure. Slater's the man. Has those barrels he was getting at Pipe, far out. Just seeing, I think, he's down and he won the Triple Crown. I know. Freak. Full-on freak. So good. Yeah. So competitive. He's got that fire, though.

Michael Frampton
Just pulling into those close-out barrels at Bechdor.

Matt Grainger
I know. Without a care in the world.

Michael Frampton
I know.

Matt Grainger
That's what it was like, coming back to technique and stuff. You go down and you coach people and they're going, it's too small. You're going, this is probably Kelly Slater's best day ever growing up. I always say the analogy, you've seen Slater get a barrel out backdoor Pipe and it's 10 foot and he's 20 foot back and you see him speed pump. That speed pump he was doing in that barrel, he was doing it Cocoa Beach at one foot. So you can translate, if you can get speed in one footers, you're going to use it everywhere. And they're like—they get motivated.

Michael Frampton
It's true, though. It's very true.

Matt Grainger
And look at the Lopez brothers and then the Hobgoods from Florida. Yeah. All mental tube riders. Yeah. And of course, they froth on surfing because they grew up where it's crap. So they go over there and surf all day. Whereas some crew that are used to good waves, it's not good enough, don't think they'll surf. They always had their hunger. Yeah. So small waves can teach big waves. And MR used to say that too in another way. He said, big waves are easier than small waves because you've got more room.

Michael Frampton
You've got more time, yeah.

Matt Grainger
More time and room. And it's like, sick.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I totally agree with that. Small waves are hard.

Matt Grainger
I saw you post up some coaching. You had your bottom turn before and after.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. That was cool.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. And then I've made some big changes on that trip.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that looked—was that?

Matt Grainger
Good. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Where? No, it looks good there.

Matt Grainger
That was in El Salvador.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
I've never been there. Hedgy's been there. Yeah, looked fun rides, hey?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Plenty of time to get the body right.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. That's what I reckon heaps of people need, hey. Just to have that repetition in good waves and then you can transfer it to small waves. Like a lot of people think you can't, but you can.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, of course.

Matt Grainger
I know, but it's like, I won't be able to surf when I go home. And you're like, no, you'll surf better. Wow. It's just basically generating speed. If you've always got speed, you can do those turns, what you did on a big wave or like a five footer. If you've got speed, you can do that in a two footer. You just got to generate speed. What we want to do now, like as we're getting older, is just be that graceful older surfer. Like still hack turns, but you'll throw spray, but you want to have minimal movement.

Michael Frampton
Like Rob Machado. In between turns.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Machado, Parco. Yeah. They look like they got all the time in the world, hey?

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
They're doing less turns. You do less turns, but better ones. And just flowing, looking. And I try to—I do a lot with that coaching from the intermediate level into advanced too. It's just doing that full-blown roundhouse. If you do the full figure eight, you just keep going figure eight in between. It's easy because you're always in the power pocket. Like Taylor Knox has got the most amazing figure eight you've ever seen. So you can do that figure eight, hit the foam, always come back to the foam. And then you don't have to bounce. And then learning just rail to rail, less is more.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
And Martin's—I don't know if you've seen some of Martin Dunn's stuff. He just opened up—he did this thing, it was pretty cool. Was a guy in Waco, got footage of himself in the wave pool and then sent it to Martin. So it was like this full experiment. Cool. So that was cool. So Martin broke down his surfing that he didn't even film from an artificial wave. Yeah. And then helped this guy surf. Cool.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Have you done the wave pool?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, I did. Last year I went with the Olympic team with Cooper Chapman. We went to Slater's pool. We were there for two and a half days. That was cool with Ryan Callahan, Solly Bailey. Who else was there? Phillip Anderson. And there was Caleb Tancrede. It was a cool little crew. And of course, Matt Banting was there. Yeah. And yeah, that was insane. That was fun. And then we went to Waco because we were already there. We just paid on our own. Cooper and I just went with his dad. We went to Waco and we went to Inland. Inland was like—we just wanted to see it. It was terrible.

Michael Frampton
Have you seen that?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, I've seen it. I'm not inspired to go there. But Waco...

Matt Grainger
Looks... Waco's insane. It's got this... Yeah, it's got the jets under the water. Yeah, it's funny because I came just back from Cloud Break. I went from Cloud Break— I sound like a wanker now, but— I went from Cloud Break restaurants pumping to the Slater pool. Straight, pretty much straight there. And then I went to Waco. So it was cool to just go from full-blown pumping ocean to Slater's. And Slater's in the barrel was weird because it's a foil. It's cutting through the water with this steel blade. It's got no power from... The bottom third of the wave has no power. So you notice all the pros, how they don't do those crazy deep bottom turns because you just go off the back. And then when you're in the tube, you actually, the barrel comes from behind you. You know how most, you're coming along and then you do a tube stall or a stall and you see the barrel sort of lining up in your vision like three meters ahead. Slater's one comes from behind you.

Michael Frampton
So you've got to kind of just trust the process.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, you got to trust it. You do this little... And then you can grab the wall just for a little bit and then let go because it gobbles you up. So it doesn't grab your fins. There's no water coming off your fins. Does that make sense? So I just came from pumping restaurants and you do a tube stall. Tube stall and then you feel the water grab your fins and then push you in the tube. Slater's doesn't give you that. It's crazy. And then you just got to work it out. It's easy frontside at the start and then backside is quite hard because you can't do the deep like we've done our whole lives. You just throw your arm in the wall and you can let it in and out. You've just got to basically... In the end, I was pulling my arm off and putting it on my board, like tucking on the flat like my... Because I'm a goofy, my right hand was coming down flat so I couldn't grab the wall. I was making myself not grab the wall. It was crazy because you just... It outruns you. Yeah, so that was cool. And Waco got all this power like a wave like restaurants did. It's pushing underneath the water in air jets. So you come off the bottom and you feel like a proper wave.

Michael Frampton
Waco looks like it would be good for coaching.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, coaching. Awesome for.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. You just sit there and film.

Matt Grainger
Kelly's pool is insane but it's not being ungrateful. It's amazing engineering and it's the best barrel. The barrel is insane but from a coaching point of view, it's too long and it's not pushing back at you. Like you said, Waco is insane. It's like three waves, just three wave sets and then like a 10-second break and then three waves and then 10 seconds, boom. And if you fall, you don't care. Whereas if Kelly's, you fall, you're bummed because you don't get another wave for another four to seven minutes. And then because there's only, say, there's 20 of you, you might have a wave every, what's that, like an hour. Whereas Waco, she's pumping all day. So that was cool and then they can change the settings. They can make an air section, make a barrel section, like a turn section. And then I went to Melbourne Urban Surf. I wrote all the curriculum for them from total beginner to advanced. So it took me a year to do that and then they're opening in January 2020. So I went down with Taz and Bella last Wednesday and just surfed with all their team and that's similar to Waco and it's got eight wave sets. Wow. Yeah, and like six turns, and then they got this barrel section called the Beast. So yeah, and that's all air jets underwater as similar to Waco. Yeah, so it's wave garden technology.

Michael Frampton
Well. Okay, so similar technology.

Matt Grainger
So they've got that dialed, like a right and a left at once going towards, you know, obviously towards the beach. But you look at it and you're like, whoa, whereas Waco is cool, but it'd only be left setting, right setting, whereas Urban Surf's got the left and right going at once. Yeah, so it still feels like a normal ocean.

Michael Frampton
Interesting. Tom was saying, because he went there, he said it's like there's lots of refraction and there's water moving around as well.

Matt Grainger
So some waves are different because there's so much water moving around the pool. So it's really interesting, yeah, like you'll get one wave and then the next wave's different even though it's on the same setting, which is good. It's not a bad thing. It's more surfing. We got a couple where we, you know, I was saying to Bella, don't hit the first section too hard because the first section was kind of just the way on that setting was, it was just almost like we were talking about before, just do like a nice even cutty and then it'd ramp up. So it was almost, you were reading the wave, you weren't just on autopilot. It was Kelly's is really autopilot because that's just a foil, whereas the jet's under the water and then having all the water rushing around after those sets, yeah, it just makes it different sections. Like even one, I went up and did a turn, did two turns and then there was a barrel and on that same setting, I never got barreled again the whole day. It was weird. I was like, how'd that happen? Yeah, so it's pretty cool. I'm going back down on Saturday and I'll probably, I'm going to do eight hours. So I don't know, I'll get back to you how many waves that is.

Michael Frampton
You're amazing. That's crazy.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, so that's cool. That's going to be good for training because I'd worked in a wave pool in Malaysia in 1995. So yeah, for like a whole year, like back and forth. And we got guys, like full-on Malaysian guys, never surfed on eight-foot softies. In a month, they were on six-foot, six-ohs hardboards. But then I took them in the ocean and they were terrible. They couldn't handle currents and they couldn't know where to sit.

Michael Frampton
But for the intermediate surfer that wants to dial in their bottom turn...

Matt Grainger
Refine it.

Michael Frampton
Just spend a day being filmed and coached. Just like...

Matt Grainger
Boom, instant. Go and do that. When you come off that section, do that. Yeah, it's going to be awesome. Yeah, the beast mode, guys are breaking boards and then hitting their head. Some guys have been cracking their heads open. Like it's got power. Apparently they could make it bigger but it might be too gnarly. So that's cool.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Wow, yeah. Imagine that. Big enough, like double overhead wave pools.

Matt Grainger
That would be wicked. And then I haven't done the plunger one. That looks pretty cool. That's interesting, the one up at the plunger. Mad Max one. Mad Max. So yeah, that's, yeah, so at least the good thing is you know, and the vibe was really good because everyone knows a wave's coming. You don't get that anxiety in surf. The wind's going to come or tide's coming in. So you get a few guys that hassle and wreck the, you know, upset the upper cut because they think it's going to be, that's over. Whereas in the wave pool, everyone's like, I know it's my turn. So everyone's really respectful and sticks to the, in the line. It's really cool.

Michael Frampton
It's like the opposite of real surfing.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, opposite. Yeah, I know. Imagine if someone went from straight, like we just grew up in a wave pool and they went and surfed somewhere where it's just heavily localized. Yeah, they'd be like, what's going on? What? I haven't caught a wave in two hours. I've been sent in. Got sent in. I got slapped on the ear. Yeah. Yeah, they'd be hot. Have to do like scenarios in the pool. Okay, this is what happens when you go to this spot in the world. But in Macaroni's when I surf guided there, I did a surf guiding gig this year. It was cool. And I try to make everyone take turns. So when I'm out there, even guys just jump fresh off the boat. You go, hey guys, we're doing a line system here. There's only 10 of us out, so you're number 10, he's number one, number two, number three. And number one, if you don't want it, you just put your hands up. And it works a treat. And I had this massive guy, this big Brazilian guy, covered in tats. He was like double my size and gold teeth and looked gnarly. And I just said, hey mate, we take turns here. And he's like, what do you mean? I said, look, we take turns. Like go to the end of the line. He came back later, about half an hour later, and he hugged me. He goes, hey Matt, hey Bella, this is the best day of my life. I can't believe it. Every day I have a fight in the surf. Thank you God. And he was just stoked because he didn't have to fight. And you know where to take off. You can go wide, you can go deep. If you want to double up, go to double up. Some guys will sit there for like 40 minutes and not catch a wave. Because they want that bomb. So hands up.

Michael Frampton
It's cool. So they just put their hands up?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, put their hands up. Then if you're too deep, can't get it, go.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, communication. Yeah, and...

Matt Grainger
That's like my pet hate in surfing. You know the bomb of the day and no one gets it because no one talks? Or three guys hassle themselves and no one gets it? Just like no. That's what I do when I surf. I just try to stay away from... if I see a pecking order, I'll just go down the beach. You know what I mean? Or just find something or you just sit in the... eventually just don't froth and talk and eventually get a wave.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. It's, I...

Matt Grainger
Mean, I'm pretty lucky around northern beaches here. There's heaps of spots.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Whereas I haven't surfed. I think, I don't know, America's out of control, is it?

Michael Frampton
It is.

Matt Grainger
Like how many guys out Malibu?

Michael Frampton
60, 80. So not as long a wave.

Matt Grainger
It's like the Superbank. Similar to. But it's right.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah. It's just like, to get a wave and not have someone drop in on you is... that's gnarly. I mean, there's one guy out there who he gets, as soon as he gets on a wave, he just starts yelling.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, right.

Michael Frampton
God. Yelling and screaming and he gets waves to himself. But you shouldn't have to do that. He's not having fun. It's one of the most passive aggressive places in the world because people drop in on you without even looking. Like they won't even look at you or acknowledge you. Yeah. Or, I had this one guy blatantly drop in on me and I just sort of lifted him off the wave.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Like, yep. See, oi! I didn't listen.

Matt Grainger
Ya. Yep.

Michael Frampton
I just went up, just lifted him off the wave and he just jumped off his board and grabbed my leash and pulled it. I'm like...

Matt Grainger
We both can't get it now, can...

Michael Frampton
We? Yeah. Just things like that. It's just sort of... and there's so many people out there on soft tops that have been surfing for one year. Because Malibu is such a... it has to be one of the best waves in the world. It's so easy, yet it's so rippable.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Like if it's head high.

Matt Grainger
And slopey.

Michael Frampton
It's kind of slopey, right? You can have a short boarder top to bottom ripping.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
And then a long boarder doing a thing on the shoulder and it'd be fine.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
It's such a long, rippable wall.

Matt Grainger
You can fit two guys on it or...

Michael Frampton
Girls. Easily. And people do a little at a time.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Jump on, it's fine. Surf behind them, yeah. But you get these soft top people just, it's my turn. I've been surfing for a year.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, entitlement. That's the bummer about...

Michael Frampton
The yeah...

Matt Grainger
Entitlement. They're entitled and yeah, they just miss that whole generation of like pecking order.

Michael Frampton
Passive aggressive.

Matt Grainger
You know, pay your dues.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. You...

Matt Grainger
Don't paddle out and start snaking the old guys or girls. Let them have waves. It's not your turn. Yeah, they just come out and just go nuts. And yeah, they've probably done that in their whole life. So they don't cross over in a surf world.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
They still push everyone over in life. So then they, I'm going to do it out here.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Well, they see what the 20 or the surfers that have been surfing for 20 years, they see how it works.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
But they don't understand the skill it takes to make it work like that.

Matt Grainger
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
For sure. It's gnarly.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, it's a... I mean... I went to one day, I went out Snapper and it was one of those days where no one could fall off. So it was probably a bit like Malibu and it was so annoying because usually it's gnarly, you know. This day it was just only three to four, maybe three, maybe a little bit bigger, but it was so perfect. No one was falling off. So everyone was getting really agitated because when people fall, some of my best waves at Snapper is someone's falling off. Yeah, you're paddling out and you go, some guy digs a rail and goes over the falls and you just quickly swing and go and you get a 400-meter wave of your life. Yeah. This day no one was falling off and I was like, I only got one wave in about 40 minutes. So I just did the bodyboard of shame, went and stuffed this, bodyboarded a wave into the beach, ran around at Debar, it was six foot onshore, and there were three people out coming off the wall and had an absolute ball.

Michael Frampton
Wow.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, and just went far out and I was tired. Like, I surfed for like two hours, I was worn out. Yeah. I just caught too many waves. I'm like, I just... I was like, I'm not going to suffer anymore. But sometimes your brain's going, I don't want to do that paddler shame. I'm like, I don't even care. I'm just going in.

Michael Frampton
It's not like that, not in LA anyway, because it's such a limit. There's only certain, a number of breaks. Yeah. So many people. Yeah, so it's just that everywhere's got lots of people.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, that's gnarly. Yeah, Northern Beach is insane.

Michael Frampton
Hey? Yeah, I mean, the wave to people ratio is much better here. LA's like, you get good waves in LA, but there's too many surfers per waves kind of thing. It's hard to find. You can go to some local beach breaks and get closeouts and have fun if you want. Which is what I do a lot, so.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Get good at surfing closeouts.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, or just travel, just go on trips.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, you got to go on trips, hey? Yeah. It keeps you frothing, hey, trips?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Have you got a trip booked coming...

Matt Grainger
Up? Well, I'm going to work, I'm going to wave pool on Saturday, and then I'm just going to work all the way to April. And then I can just not care. I'll probably do heaps. Definitely do two Fiji, two Indos already. Got them already lined up. So that's the carrot. Nice. So I can just go there without any stress. Don't have to put out fires with work. And it's way better now. And everyone's a good vibe right now down here with work, like, teaching all these holidaymakers. So they're all in a good mood, so you kind of get their vibe. And then wintertime, I can go away and then the guys I work with, we all share months off. It's unreal. Rad. Yeah. It's weird, though, I can't... I've got to do like three to four weeks is a perfect time, and then you have a little break, go home and then go somewhere. I can't do the full time. I don't know, it's just my brain. I'm different. I don't know, it's just like, no, I'm ready to go home. So home's good, like, you've lived here, hey? There's so many good spots. Yeah, and it's funny, all that stuff I was talking about before, you see those people that never have a winter?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Beautiful place.

Matt Grainger
Like, you need a winter.

Michael Frampton
To appreciate summer. Yeah.

Matt Grainger
You need, like, your mental... now we're getting deep again. But it's funny, you know, when people live the endless summer, they don't appreciate it. And they don't go for all the different seasons. It's so cool going for different seasons, you know, from boardies to a steamer, onshores to warm water, you know, gnarly big period swells, piddly little onshore little runners. So all those... same with your life, I know, we still come back to surfing and life, but if you just don't have, like, winter's really good for your brain, you know, you're kind of sort of consolidating. And then, you know, before that, in autumn, you're pruning, you know, throwing out what's not working in life, then sort of consolidating in winter, and then spring, you're starting to grow. And then summer, you just get the fruits of your labor. And then you go back again and do it again, just keep reassessing your life. But if you just have the endless summer, you just burn out.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's true. It's a good metaphor. There you go, man. Sounds like you've been reading a seasonal model for psychology or something.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, it is. Yeah, I did, actually. Yeah, okay. Yeah, it was really cool. Yeah, it was actually about change. And it was at the right time that I found that book. What's her name? By Morden. Yeah, she's Cynthia Morden. Okay. Yeah. It's called, I think, Four Seasons at the Heart, and that one was Change. Yeah, there you go. I remembered it. All right. Yeah, that was amazing. Yeah, so, and it was funny, you're only supposed to read a chapter a day, so it sinks right in. But sometimes I read three. Because she's a great writer, she's an Aussie. But yeah, that was huge. And you just see, everyone's different and I'm not judging, but yeah, you see crew that just live full time as an expat somewhere. They're all a little bit crazy, hey? Island fever and stuff. Not everyone, but you see crew that have been doing it for a long time. You know? A bit like Marlon Brando and his island in Fiji going nuts.

Michael Frampton
I like that, seasonal. Yeah, it makes sense.

Matt Grainger
And it's cool, like, surfing too, isn't it? Like, fishing and all those sorts of things, like, different seasons. And you have those memories, like, some of your best surfs were like onshore sour oysters with no one out. Yeah. With your best mate. And then, Derek Hines said a good quote too, just, don't surf with any expectations.

Michael Frampton
Little gem comes through you didn't expect.

Matt Grainger
I love that. Love that. You just have so much fun. You don't even care if you get a wave. You go, I might get one today, or if I do. And then, you know, you get 10 and you're stoked. And you just haven't... I've got to do all these turns, or do this and that. You go, nah, whatever happens. And you have the best surf. And then, Skud, haven't he? Low winning the title. Like, he's just a full-frothing grubber.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, incredible, right?

Matt Grainger
It was awesome. And he beat Medina, who's the full-on cyborg. And he's got him. I think he's like 8-10, maybe. He's beaten Medina. Really? Apparently, yeah. I might be wrong, but check your stats. But he's so, like they say, stokered. He's a frother. He's such a frother, hey? I saw him in D-Bar, actually, this year. And he was there for the comp, and I was just there with the Jira Teams titles. I was surfing D-Bar, and it was so, like, inspirational to surf with. Because he's actually just frothing on surfing. Like, he's not even trying to be the best. He's just surfing. Each wave, he wants to be the best for himself, and he was happy. And he'd paddle out as hard as he was paddling for a wave. His motor, like his internal motor, was insane. Like, I was joking with my son, Taz. I said, I was putting on my leg rope, and I saw him get 3-10, so I was just putting my leg rope on. Like, he took off, did a straight air, then an air reverse into flats. And then got a right, did four backside upside down reos, and then did an air reverse. And the next one, just does one big straight air, and you're just like... And I was like, what? And then I was paddling, I was just sitting out there with him, and then I watched him catch a wave. He'd be paddling out like 4' for D-Bar. Like, most people would be getting pushed back to the beach. And he's just paddling through the waves. Yeah, and he wasn't hassling either. Like, and he was happy, and he was talking to everyone. And then he's just getting waves. He was reading them really well too. Because he paddled so fast, he could see a right coming, and he'd paddle over to it, and get it, and then he'd look over to his left, and then back, and you'd get a left and a right, and then you end up winning the comp.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, world champ. World.

Matt Grainger
Champ. Yeah. So cool. I don't know. And a lot of guys. And like, I know a lot of Aussies bag the Brazilians, but when you actually hang with them, like I've hung on tour with them, they're the nicest guys in the world. They just have to be an animal in the heat.

Michael Frampton
It's their job.

Matt Grainger
It's their job. Like, that's the thing. Like, people bag on social media about Medina, and this Medina, that. What about, so imagine in 10 years, if he didn't do some of the stuff he did in heats, he'd be sitting at home without that world title.

Michael Frampton
Exactly.

Matt Grainger
And going, maybe I should have pushed a bit harder on that heat, you know. It's a job, as you said. Like we were talking about, you know, All Blacks before, you know, they're machines. You're not going to, it's okay, mate. And then you lose the World Cup.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Shit. That was too nice.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
But on land, after the whistle blows or the behooda blows, you'd be...

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's a game.

Matt Grainger
Mates.

Michael Frampton
Playing within the rules. It's the game. It's a game, yeah. It's not free surfing. You're not there to make friends.

Matt Grainger
Nah, aren't it? Free surfing is for cack, surfing.

Michael Frampton
It's competitive.

Matt Grainger
How's the air guys now? Like, it's cool that WSL have got the air guys. So they just party all the whole time. They train and just have, you know, it's the polar opposites, hey? And having a ball. And they're just animals. Love it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, they should have, they should do, they should be filming them in the pub.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. They’d get some good clips. And then, who was it? Matt Miola. Those massive closeouts in France this year. No, they just had the air show. And he just, rubber legs, just doing these airs on these six-foot closeouts. Like, just death-defying. And he wasn't even, like, he was so close to making them. He got one, he was going to be a 10-point ride. And he goes, no, I'm not surfing for twos. I went, that's so refreshing. He's just, he'll either get last or first. He's not going to play the game. He's not going to play that game of safety. First or last.

Michael Frampton
No expectations. No expectations.

Matt Grainger
And, yeah, Medina is just a beast.

Michael Frampton
He is. Just...

Matt Grainger
You can hate, I don't... yeah, I don't know why guys, I mean, it's weird how people can just actually hate someone so much. And it's just, they're just an athlete. They're doing their job.

Michael Frampton
They're all talk. Yeah. They hate on Instagram, but...

Matt Grainger
Yeah, no, they'll be like, my God, shake his hand.

Michael Frampton
They won't say it to his face.

Matt Grainger
You're a legend. I met Medina. Yeah, he was actually really nice.

Michael Frampton
No, far out.

Matt Grainger
That's what's so cool about martial arts, jiu-jitsu. Yeah, there's no hating on anyone. You've got to be so humble. You've got to be respectful. Anyone can beat you. And it doesn't matter if they do. You just... so you learn. Pete, the coach, says, leave your ego at the door. And so humbling. That's where surfing sort of lost its way a bit, hey.

Michael Frampton
Leave your ego on the sand.

Matt Grainger
Leave your ego on the sand. That could—bloody oath.

Michael Frampton
Be a new hashtag. It needs it.

Matt Grainger
Bloody oath.

Michael Frampton
It needs it. All right, man.

Matt Grainger
I know. So you're going to stay in the States, obviously?

Michael Frampton
We've got another couple of years on our visas. Yeah. Another couple of years and then who knows.

Matt Grainger
Who knows. I don't know, man. No expectations.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, right.

Matt Grainger
That's leave the ego on the sand.

Michael Frampton
Keep the book open. Yeah. And NZ trips?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, going there in a couple of days, actually. Yeah. Awesome.

Michael Frampton
What island?

Matt Grainger
North Island. East Coast, North Island.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Magic, hey. Magic spot.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
On the crowd, you must just freak out when you go there.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. It's not the right season for surfing.

Matt Grainger
Nah.

Michael Frampton
But just the amount of people that are on the island in general...

Matt Grainger
You can just go down, like go to a spot that's not even known.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, that's mental.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, if you want to drive, yeah, for sure.

Matt Grainger
You've got your known spots. But I actually surfed Raglan this year, like howling winds. But once you're on the wave, it was fine. And I was jumping off indicators and surfing, you know, three waves all the way to the ramp.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, wow.

Matt Grainger
And Sharon picked me up in the car, drove me around, jumped back off. I was the only guy out.

Michael Frampton
Wow.

Matt Grainger
It was like six to eight, just about sort of ten duck dives. And then bang, just surf all the way down. And then there's that little horseshoe after Whale Bay. There's that little horse. And then you go to Manu. Is that how you pronounce it?

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
There's a little spot where you can't get through, and then you just paddle. And then you get... it's awesome. No one around two days. It was cold, though. But it was weird. I reckon it was warmer than Northern Beaches, like for the wind. You know how we get the wind on a Sour Wester from the snowy mountains? This wind was coming from the water, and it was way better. It wasn't too bad, yeah. The water, I mean, the wetties are that good now.

Michael Frampton
They are. It's insane.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. So I was warm. One day we surfed eight hours, but in and out of the water. I just kept our wetties on, didn’t take them off, just have coffees, go back out. Just surfed around Taranaki, just surfing all different waves in one day. Jumped back in the car, got electrocuted on a fence. That was pretty cool. Yeah. Going to Cooper Patch. Yeah. Because it was like, was that funny? I was in my wettie, and I’m like, it looks like they’ve turned them all off. Because I felt one just to test.

Michael Frampton
So I was like...

Matt Grainger
They must have turned them off. So jumping fences, and I was lazy on one. And it just, boom, and I was just rolling around on... No, that was gnarly.

Michael Frampton
The ground. Yeah, they get you, man. They’re strong nowadays. They’re so strong.

Matt Grainger
And there was no one around that day surfing because it was just windy. But heaps of surf. Cool people, too. Really cool. How’s, yeah, like people talk up, walk up to you and talk to you and say, yeah, come follow me around the corner.

Michael Frampton
Love Taranaki.

Matt Grainger
There’s a better wave. And you’re like, where am I?

Michael Frampton
What? Yeah. This is cool. You’re just stoked to see someone. Stoked to see...

Matt Grainger
Someone. Yeah. That’s like in Tasmania. Surf Tasmania is the same? We were down there for the Aussie titles once, and yeah, guys would just see us and come up. We’re like, you know, at least at the Northern Beaches in the 80s. Some big dude walks up. We’re like, no, what have we done? Hey, guys, how are you going? There’s a better spot around the corner. Jump in your car and follow me. We’re like, what? And we went around to his house for dinner. He’s frying lobsters on the barbie. And we’re just like, what? Wow. Yeah, pretty cool.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Leave the ego on the sand. Leave it.

Matt Grainger
On the sand, mate. Yeah. I know this is the spiritual surf mastery. Last time was the bolter.

Michael Frampton
The bolter with the big wave stories. The big wave...

Matt Grainger
Stories. Yeah. See, my ego was bigger then. Yeah, that was cool. That was a fun one.

Michael Frampton
It.

Matt Grainger
It was actually funny when I was at the wave pool on Wednesday. Someone said, because I was just being low key. I wasn’t saying who it was. I was just out there. Eventually, a few of the guys found out it was me. And he goes, I just heard you on that podcast. Yeah, cool. Did you like it? And he said, yeah, your one. Yeah. Surf Mastery. Sick. Yeah, it’s cool. No, they’ve been going well. Hey, it’s fun. It’s fun, hey. Just talk. I know that first one was funny, hey. We had it more scripted. And then now, just talk. Yeah. It’s... Is Greg Zizouan out yet?

Michael Frampton
Way better. It’s loosening up, for sure. I got a couple from Greg.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, he’s branched out, hasn’t he, out of the surfing as well? Yeah. Yeah, I remember Mark Matthews was doing seminars to like bankers about fear.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it’s so applicable to everything.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Because he studied so much about it. Because he was like probably one of the most scared guys out in Aruba. You know, and then learned how to deal with it. Yeah, it’s so applicable to everything. I know, and it’s funny, like, I still, you know, sometimes get in trouble. People go, you always bring it back to surfing? I go, there’s so many life lessons, though. Because we’re in the ocean. You know, I’d probably be saying the same things if you’re a mountain climber. Or, you know, like, it’s not just surfing. It’s just you’re in the ocean. Or you’re in the elements. Or you’re snowboarding or climbing crazy mountains. So similar. Dealing with that fear and anxiety and learning how to be calm. And, I mean, that’s weird, isn’t it? Like, no one’s really, they don’t teach it at school.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it’s a shame.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Like the education, like the breathing. Like the other day I had 80 kids looking at me, and they were being ratbags. And I actually said, all right, sit down, close your eyes. And I want you to breathe in through your nose five seconds, out through your mouth five seconds. We did it like 20 times. I said, now open your eyes. And they all just sat there calm. And the teachers were like looking at me going, whoa, how did you do that? And I was just like, I don’t care. It might not work, but I’m just going to have a crack. Usually I’ll whistle and go, boy, guys, listen. And I just had their attention. Just calmed them down.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, they’re teaching mindfulness at my son’s school in the States. Yeah, nice. They do the hand, so you breathe in...

Matt Grainger
Yeah, that’s good.

Michael Frampton
Breathe in as you go up the finger, and breathe out as you come down the finger. So you’ve got something physical to feel and to focus on as well, because kids are very sensory too. Yeah, that’s cool. That’s a good one. They do that a couple of times with their hand. That’s... I’ve been doing the Kili.

Matt Grainger
Pretty good. That’s really cool. Are you trying any different type of meditation?

Michael Frampton
So I was doing mindfulness meditation before. And then when I went on the trip with Taylor and got to dive deep into the Kili. It’s only five minutes, is it? It’s only five minutes. Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, I do still do the Vedic, but I have to do breath work before it. Like if I don’t do breath work, I’m hopeless. Like I’ve got to do a lot of breath work before I go into meditation, because my brain is so crazy. Because I don’t know. It helps, yeah. I haven’t got good enough yet to... I know you’re not supposed to fight it or do anything like that. You’ve got to relax. But I find when we’re done with heaps of breathing, I’m just calm.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah, do the Wim Hof then. I find doing meditation after the Wim Hof is easier.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, for sure. And you feel... I’ve been doing the Sam Harris Guided sometimes. They’re pretty cool.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I do that as well. Yeah, it’s a good app.

Matt Grainger
We’re junkies.

Michael Frampton
He’s good, right? You learn so much listening to him.

Matt Grainger
Really good app, hey.

Michael Frampton
I gazing.

Matt Grainger
Know. He’s amazing. That’s a good one. Especially when the open eyes, the closed, guys.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that’s interesting. You always do it... Yeah.

Matt Grainger
And then, right, you’re doing... open your eyes, meditate. What? And then you do a wide gaze and you’re like, wow.

Michael Frampton
It’s fascinating. Really. But leave your ego on the sand.

Matt Grainger
Cool stuff. Awesome.

Michael Frampton
There you go. It’s a good way to end it. There you go, man. Sweet. Thank you, man. Thank you. Congrats.

55 Matt Grainger 3

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.