054: Tom Carroll's Knee

SHOW NOTES

Think a diagnosis like osteoarthritis means the end of your surfing—or even your everyday movement?

In this raw and deeply personal episode, 2x World Champion and surfing icon Tom Carroll reveals how he endured decades of chronic knee pain, competed at the highest level on a crumbling joint, and eventually found peace, performance, and purpose through meditation, smart training, and total knee replacement.

• Hear how Tom managed world-class performance with a structurally broken knee and no ACL for years

• Learn the powerful mindset and language shift that changed his physical healing

• Discover actionable insights for managing arthritis, improving longevity, and reconnecting with your body—no matter your age or sport

Press play now to discover what one of surfing’s greatest has learned about pain, healing, and purpose across a lifetime of pushing the limits.

Tom Carroll talks about his battle with a major knee injury early on in his career, surfing, foiling and meditation.
Tom’s Meditation retreat: https://uluwatusurfvillas.com/tom-carroll/
https://www.instagram.com/thomasvictorcarroll/?hl=en

Key Points

• Tom Carroll discusses his history with osteoarthritis, including his knee injuries and surgeries, and how he managed the condition through various methods.

• Tom explains the importance of movement and exercise in managing osteoarthritis, emphasizing the role of muscle support around the joint.

• Tom shares his experience with meditation and its benefits for emotional stability and dealing with chronic conditions like osteoarthritis.

• Tom discusses his decision to undergo total knee replacement surgery and the positive outcomes he has experienced since the procedure.

• Tom talks about his current relationship with the ocean and how it has evolved over time, describing it as his spiritual home.

• Tom mentions his upcoming meditation retreat in Bali at Uluwatu Surf Villas from June 21st to 28th, 2020.

• Tom addresses misconceptions about meditation and emphasizes the importance of formal practice for self-realization.

• Tom explains the benefits of meditation, including the toning and recalibration of the nervous system.

• Tom provides information on how to find out more about his meditation retreats and upcoming events. 

Outline

Tom Carroll's Surfing Career and Knee Injury

• Tom Carroll, a professional surfer, suffered a severe knee injury at age 16 in 1977.

• The initial injury tore his anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), posterior cruciate ligament (PCL), and stretched his medial ligament.

• Most of the cartilage was removed, as was common practice at the time.

• For four years after the injury, Carroll continued surfing despite frequent knee dislocations.

• They developed the ability to pop their knee back into place and continue surfing after a brief rest.

• This period likely caused significant additional damage to the joint.

• At age 20 in 1981, Carroll finally underwent reconstructive knee surgery performed by Dr. Merv Cross.

• The surgery used Carroll's hamstring tendon to reconstruct the knee ligaments.

• This innovative procedure kept the surgery time under 90 minutes to prevent muscle death.

• Despite the severity of their knee injury and subsequent osteoarthritis, Carroll went on to have a highly successful professional surfing career.

• They won two world titles, a triple crown, and 26 world tour event victories.

• Carroll attributes much of their success to their determination to push through pain and their love for surfing.

Progression of Osteoarthritis and Management

• Carroll was officially diagnosed with osteoarthritis at age 40, though signs were present much earlier.

• The surgeon's report from their initial reconstruction at age 20 noted early arthritic changes, but Carroll was not informed at the time.

• As the osteoarthritis progressed, Carroll experienced increasing pain, inflammation, and reduced mobility.

• By their early 50s, they could no longer kneel due to the enlarged joint.

• Carroll managed their condition through a combination of approaches.

• These approaches included anti-inflammatory medications, often taking double doses before and after surfing.

• They also utilized ice and compression therapy.

• Maintaining an active lifestyle and muscle strength around the joint was another key approach.

• Carroll made dietary changes, including reducing sugar and processed foods.

• They practiced yoga and specific exercises to create space in the joint.

• Carroll emphasizes the importance of movement in managing osteoarthritis.

• They found that when they stopped moving, their condition worsened.

• However, they also had to find a balance, as too much activity could also exacerbate symptoms.

Mental and Emotional Aspects of Chronic Pain

• Carroll admits to periods of frustration and negative self-talk about their knee.

• Their partner, Mary, pointed out how they would speak negatively about the joint, saying things like 'it's not even a knee anymore.'

• Learning to change their mental approach and language toward their knee was a crucial part of Carroll's management strategy.

• They began to focus on 'loving' the knee rather than rejecting it.

• Carroll recommends meditation as a powerful tool for managing the mental and emotional challenges of chronic pain.

• They practice Vedic meditation twice daily for 20 minutes and credit it with improving their emotional stability and decision-making regarding their condition.

Total Knee Replacement and Current Activities

• Carroll underwent a total knee replacement on April 28, 2017, at age 55.

• They report being very satisfied with the outcome and continue to surf regularly.

• Post-replacement, Carroll has taken up foil surfing, which they find both challenging and exhilarating.

• They use an Armstrong Foil and enjoy the new perspective it gives them on wave riding.

• Carroll continues to strengthen their knee and surrounding muscles through various exercises.

• These exercises include yoga, gym work with Swiss balls, BOSU balls, cable rows, TRX bands, and kettlebells.

Advice for Osteoarthritis Patients

• Do not give up hope or become sedentary, as movement is crucial for managing the condition.

• Work with a good physiotherapist who understands osteoarthritis to develop an appropriate exercise program.

• Consider dietary changes, particularly reducing sugar, processed foods, and alcohol.

• Explore meditation or mindfulness practices to help manage pain and improve mental outlook.

• Be patient and kind to yourself, recognizing that managing the condition is an ongoing process.

Current Projects and Future Plans

• Carroll is training to become a meditation teacher and plans to host meditation retreats.

• One of these retreats will take place at Uluwatu Surf Villas in Bali from June 21-28, 2020.

• They are exploring opportunities to combine surf coaching with meditation instruction in future retreats.

• Carroll remains deeply connected to the ocean, describing it as their spiritual home.

• They continue to evolve their relationship with surfing and the sea.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
Our next guest is the one and only Tom Carroll, appearing on the show for the third time. Thank you, Tom. Tom first appeared on the show back in February 2016 in episode number two, and then again later that year in episode number 10, where he talked about big waves—specifically in that episode. You know, Tom was the second guest. I already knew Tom through the gym that I was working at in Sydney, and that's when I found out about Tom's knee. Tom's two world titles, Tom's triple crown, Tom's 26 world tour wins, Tom's big wave surfing was all done on a knee that most people wouldn't even really get out of bed for. And in today's episode, we go into that. Now, the first half of this episode is actually a recording I did with Tom specifically for another podcast that I'm producing, which is a medical one, specifically on osteoarthritis. So just bear that in mind. And then we do, through the last half of the episode, we transition into some surfing stuff. Tom talks about his experience in meditation, what he's been doing for a lot of foiling. Tom has recently had a total knee replacement. So we talk about that as well. I think there's a big misconception out there that a lot of people think that athletes have these amazing bodies that don't get injured, and that all athletes are just freaks of nature that are super strong and bulletproof. But most athletes go through a lot of pain, a lot of injuries. It's just their love for their sport, for their craft, is more important than a bit of pain and a few injuries. It's certainly true with Tom, as you'll hear in today's interview. Tom is becoming a meditation teacher, and June 21st to 28th this year, 2020, he will be hosting a meditation retreat at the Uluwatu Surf Villas in Bali. So details for that will be in the show notes and, of course, Tom's Instagram. The music that eased us in and that is playing underneath right now is an original instrumental piece by myself, and I will splice in a classic Aussie track to fade us out at the end. We're gonna talk about managing chronic pain, because osteoarthritis is essentially—it's a long-term thing, right? It's not just... there's no cure yet per se. So you really kind of got to manage it.

Tom Carroll
Or dig it out. And replace the part.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. But that's not gonna work for everyone. No way. So most people that have osteoarthritis, especially if it's an early diagnosis, they're gonna have to just manage the—But I think a lot of people with it, they kind of hear that diagnosis and they just think, October...

Tom Carroll
Symptoms.

Michael Frampton
No more footy for me. No more, you know, I'm just... It can make them more sedentary.

Tom Carroll
Absolutely. Because—Yeah, and as soon as you start turning off the body that way, even talking to it in a certain way, it can actually inflame the condition.

Michael Frampton
Out of fear of, I don't want to make it worse or whatever.

Tom Carroll
That's what I noticed anyway.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, so doing nothing's the worst thing you can do. Absolutely. And probably, I'm guessing, doing too much is the worst thing you can do.

Tom Carroll
Yeah, so you get really close to your body. That's the only—where I was—my, that was where I got my best results when I was treating it, getting really close to it. And there was a period where I just really rejected my knee as something that wasn't part of my body, and it got worse. So they're kind of... it is definitely going on the back of my mind. You go, that's not even—doesn't even feel like a knee anymore. Like it doesn't even feel like it's part of my body. Got to that point. So then I'm gonna start rejecting the knee. That's on top of, like, not eating great food and trying to treat it with just anti-inflammatory drugs. And it just got worse.

Michael Frampton
So then what made it better? What did you learn out of that?

Tom Carroll
Well, I learned... I didn't understand. It was actually brought to my attention by my partner, Mary, who was saying how I would talk to it or kind of carry on around it. I'd be out there pushing it. Like, I'm an active person, I want to be active. And I'd been dealing with this knee for... since I was 16. So it wasn't like an odd thing for me. It was just getting a lot worse. And the knee was growing in size. So the body's responding by trying to grow on top of itself and multiply it, sort of, osteophytes around the knee. So, and the gouged-out parts or the parts that have been worn away, kind of chunky parts, try to grow around the outside of the joint to try and distance itself. It's kind of unique what it's doing, or amazing what it's doing to try and protect itself. But I'm, like, trying to be more active and go into the pain. But at the same time, I'm telling it that it's not a part of my body. Is that right? Yeah, so I'm going, fuck this knee. You know, like, it's not even a fucking knee. It doesn't even look like a knee. I don't even... it's not even... I just don't even remember saying it. It's not even a knee. You know, like, and Mary actually pulled me up. She goes, you know, you can't talk to your knee like that. I'm going, you know, I wasn't in the space to kind of hear that at the time. I'm like going, yeah, well, what am I supposed to say to it? She goes, you gotta love that knee. You gotta love it back, you know? And I'm like going... and I was like... I just wasn't in a great space to kind of hear that at the time. And I had to really—but something in the back of my conscience sort of went, she's kind of right. You know, she's right about something here because it's a part of my body. I want it to operate well and within its, you know, whatever its capacity, because I'd spent many years of being caught unconscious around it. By, you know, pushing through its, I guess, its incapacity, or it wasn't, you know, it was weaker. So I had to make it stronger initially, get through all the surgery to get a reconstruction done early in the day in '81. And then I just worked really hard to get it back to as strong as possible. This is sort of going back, okay? So if I go back to those times, I used to really push myself hard and physically push myself. And I'd had enough of the knee from 16 to 20 years old. It was just dislocating all the time because there was no ligaments from the acute injury. And when I was 16, tore all the two cruciate ligaments, posterior cruciate and anterior cruciate, and really stretched out the medial ligament. And the cartilage was mostly taken out because that's what they did back then. So it was just rubbing against itself.

Michael Frampton
So this is, so the original injury was when you were 16? 16. And it was an impact injury that tore?

Tom Carroll
Yeah, tore, impact injury that squashed me towards my board, down and bent my knee, squashed me into the board with the knee, kind of tweaked in a lateral movement, in, and just dislocated it. That's when my first surgeon looked at it. He had a bow tie and he looked at me across this big table and obviously dealt with a lot of rugby players and looked at me like a surfy kind of—this is 1977. So he looked across the table at me with this, kind of like, he didn't even actually examine the knee like they do now. He just looked at me like I was a surfy guy, you know, which I did have—16 with long blonde hair, curly hair. And he goes, and I was just—it was just wrapped up in a bit of sort of elastic bandage. And he goes, well, I'll get the nurse to—and he just looked at it over the big table and looked at me and he's got it wrapped. Okay, well, he asked me a few questions about what I was doing and what happened. He goes, well, Sonny, I'll get the nurse to measure you for crutches and keep it wrapped. Take these—I don't know what he gave me. And I was 16, I was just like, okay. And he goes, and just keep it wrapped and use the crutches for six weeks and you'll be okay. And that's all I wanted to hear really at 16. I just—I didn't want to hear anything else. Like I didn't know, I didn't think I needed surgery. I was like, I could kind of walk around just about, you know, by then—I think it was a couple of weeks later—but it was very unstable. But through the next four years, you know, it got, came good, you know, being 16, I just repaired pretty quickly and I got really active again. And then it started dislocating from time to time, irregularly.

Michael Frampton
So you didn't get the surgery, you tore the ACL and the PCL, and how long—so it was four years? Four years. So four years of surfing.

Tom Carroll
Surfing and dislocation damage, a lot of different treatments. Like I went through, got opened up to all these different other treatments. Like, some weird, some—just felt like he didn't notice. The longer I went into this sort of next four years, the realization that the doctor really didn't know what he was talking about. And I didn't know who to go to. I really—and I was just pushing forward, being this kid really, like sort of just wanting to, you know, get really good at surfing, and I could actually surf with this, you know, quite heavy kind of handicap to the knee. But—and I was creating a lot of damage to the interior, in, you know, the surface of the joint at the same time. And there was, you know, multiple dislocations. And that year I went—my first trip to Hawaii—and it would fall apart at the inside sunset, like in the whitewater. And I’d have to pull it back in. I got to a point where I could actually just pop it back in and just wait 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and I'm okay. So I got myself into a lot of pickle that way. But by the time I got—four years later—was actually saying goodbye to someone, jumping over a fence, like literally jumping off a fence kind of thing. And then turning around and I was landing on cement, and I was saying goodbye. And it was in the wintertime. I think it was around June in 1981. And I was turning around to say goodbye as I was leaving and I was landing on the cement, and I popped out backwards. That way I felt it pop that way. And I went, holy shit, I hit the deck. And I'd never been in that position before where it did that. And then I went to get up and I couldn't get up. I was like, there's incredible pain in it. That's what drove me towards the surgeon who could actually do the job, and that was Merv Cross. He was like—turned out to be like this kind of legend in the—well, later down the track, he developed a surgery. He'd had just developed a surgery with the hamstring, which kept the surgery, the reconstruction surgery below 90 minutes. So the tonic wouldn't kill off a muscle while they're doing this sort of surgery. And they're trying to work out how to do it. And he was teaching all sorts of surgeons around the world how to do the surgery. And he was like a full-blown, like, yeah, you'll be right, Tommy. He grabbed my knee while I'm going into surgery, he slapped my knee, you'll be right, Tommy. I'm going, are you sure? I couldn't wheel into this surgery—before—it was before they put you under, before you went into the surgery. So you get wheeled into the surgery and you see all the saws and all the hardware along the roll walls and all this stuff. I wasn't really—what was it? But—and when they come out of the surgery, they do the surgery, take the hamstring, retie it through. And I didn't get to see the surgeon's report—the actual surgeon's report—for, until I was 40 years old. I didn't get to see that. By the time I was 40 years old—so that's when I'm 20—I went through all that. Soon as the knee came together and it was feeling solid and I worked my guts out to get it really strong again, I just went hell for leather. Like, the knee wasn't even a problem. And any kind of issue that came up, which is maybe a little tightness here and there, a bit of soreness, and every now and then a kind of odd pain that was hard to pinpoint—but within the joint, which now I recognize as maybe the precursor to osteoarthritis—I’d pretty much iron it out. So I’d sort of ignore it. I just got to ignore that. So from 16, you'd think about how much ignorance towards my body, towards my knee, would have had to happen for me to keep surfing and to get to a high level, to get to where I got to—kind of push that aside and give everything else full priority and prefer to push it rather than sort of listen to it. So that all comes to light down the track. So 40 years of age, I'm like, I can't do any sand hill running anymore. I can't do all this sort of stuff that I was really used to doing. And at the same time as I'm about to call up Merv Cross to consult him on a knee replacement at 40 years of age, he actually—he’s actually sent me a letter in the mail because he's doing a recall on all his ex-athletes who got these surgeries done. A recall? Just doing a recall, just a study. Okay. So he's doing a study on how they've gone. So he's doing a bit of a full written study, survey really. And he's got—and he, by this time, he's a bit of a guru and he's got all these, you know, these doctors around him and I go to his rooms and I'm sitting there and he walks in, all the white coats walk in and I'm like sitting on this thing and he goes, geez—he comes in, Tommy, again, the same guy—Tommy, he goes and slaps me on the knee. And he goes, that looks pretty good, doesn't it? And he's pulling away at it. And I probably got—he goes, the graft's still there. That's fantastic, you know? He's just the way he talks. And I go, no, it's not. And I thought, what's—he goes, but the—yeah, nah, you're all right, Tommy. That's doing good. And I go, no, I go, nah, I'm sorry. But when can I get a knee replacement? He goes—he looked at me straight in the eye—he goes, not for another 30 years, Tom. I go, fuck. I actually—my jaw dropped. And he goes, but you know, see this doctor here? He can go in there. He's one of the good doctors there. He goes, you can go in there and they can tap into the joint. They can tap on the surface of the joint to try and get the surface of the joint to sort of regrow itself. They do it quite often. It's quite a—but he said at that point, he couldn't give me anything more than 33%. I think 30—it was a third of people that came through the surgery would actually get a result. And I said, that's not enough for me to go in there and bang around on my joint. You know, I'll just have to live with it. So I thought, God, 30—you know, 70 years old—you know, I've got to wait till 70. How am I going to pull this off? But basically that's where, you know, those things catch, getting caught in there, like chunks were getting caught. So I remember he goes, look, you should go and get a cleanup done by Dr. Stuart Watson, who was an orthopedic surgeon who assisted him in the first surgery. And he was doing cleanup work and doing that other tapping work. So he's removing loose bodies. And so he did that surgery and that actually sort of freed up the joint again and gave me a little bit more. He said, this is about 15,000 case service times. So on this side—so that actually happened two more times before getting a replacement after that. But by—at 40, when I had that consultation with Merv Cross, the joint had actually sort of grown and I could still kneel down, and which I'd been doing a lot of in yoga. I found that kneeling down with a rolled-up towel in between the joint like that and kneeling down on a bolster—so I've got my butt on a bolster, kneeling down, keeping the knees together and opening up the knee joint like that to subtly—eventually gave it a lot of relief and allowed, once you pull back together, seemed to get anything to breathe and get. So that seemed to—that was given to me by a yoga teacher in the late ‘80s. And he got me doing that regularly and that actually helped it feel better. But not initially when we were first doing it. But after a little bit of practice at that, started creating space and some relief in the joint. But by the time I was around 50 years old, I couldn't kneel down anymore. The joint had got too big. And through those years, I'd been sort of pretty much just still pushing my knee aside to everything else and trying to ignore it. Not really using what later became really obvious after Mary saying, look, the way you're talking to your joint—of course it's gonna be like crap. It's gonna be—you’re gonna talk about that to your knee, it's gonna be crap. And that's how I kind of behaved towards it for a long time. But that was becoming more and more heightened, that kind of language and behavior towards it. But as soon as I started to work on turning that around, including, you know, putting a better diet into place. So... Well, I could see some—when I went in there in the surgery when I was 20...

Michael Frampton
And then so you found out about the diagnosis at 40? Yeah. Did that change...

Tom Carroll
Your perspective? No, I didn't change straight away. I was kind of shocked when I read it. I'm going, man, I've had this. This has been a really damaged joint, like a lot more damaged than what I thought. And no wonder I'm suffering. No wonder I want to have a replacement joint now. I even was looking at partial replacements, and I found someone in Hawaii that had a partial replacement at 42, and actually it worked for him. And I went through—and that was probably when I was 46, 47—and I was really determined to get that done, but then I kind of went off that track and decided not to do that and tried to hold out. I thought, okay, then I sort of hunkered down and thought I'm going to hold out for as long as I can with this and do the best I can with it. I got to about 52, around 52, 51, 52, where I was really like, okay, I got to really start looking seriously at doing this because it was—by then I couldn't do any kneeling at all. Although I hadn't been able to do that for a while, but I was still trying to get partially there. But the joint becomes so big, and I was using a lot of Voltaren, the 25s, doubling up on those, having 50 milligram of Voltaren. If I was about to do some exercise and then after it, so it’d be a before and after exercise thing, that would give me some sort of—my mind—a bit of relief. But the inflammation was still there. It doesn't really do much. Well, it's supposed to be an anti-inflammatory—probably does some sort of—but when it's this bad, it's still inflamed, and I'd have to ice and compress. So I had a lot of compression on a lot of time. I'd compress it more than ice it and elevate it at night. So I got really into doing the elevation and compression and then ice or even cool—anything cool on it. Keeping it cool was really good. Like I know now today, if I could have had one of those ice water cooling things that goes—you wrap it around your leg and you got it running through you around and you could wear one of those all night—there’d be... my knee would be—I tried that a couple of times with a friend's woman later down the track and that actually helped it feel better the next day.

Michael Frampton
So how old were you when Mary pointed out, look, you can't hate the knee, kind of?

Tom Carroll
Yeah, which was really challenging when she said that. That was—I was like 53, I think.

Michael Frampton
It's interesting because arthritis is autoimmune, which is your immune system killing your own body, which is totally in line with the way you felt about your knee. So it makes sense. Like you were almost giving in to the disease on a different level.

Tom Carroll
Way back in there, and then yeah, underneath everything, the belief system was this knee's fucked. Like it's fucked, it's not... I've written the knee off. I'm gonna get it replaced one day, so I've written it off. So as soon as that's said to the body at a deeper level, I'm sure it has all these implications—all these crazy implications to the system and what it's actually acting—how it's acting around.

Michael Frampton
And when did that change? Did it change?

Tom Carroll
Yeah, it changed a bit, like quite a bit. Like I started to just try to change my language around it. Like started changing my language around so to stop—I stopped talking to it like it was a bad thing. Started—I wouldn't say being really kind, like I was more like my actions were more kind to it. I struggled with the language, but I had to just—I knew that I needed to pull away from talking to it in such a bad way. Well, a negative way towards it. So I just pulled up on that sort of behavior. And I went into an anti-inflammatory diet, pulled away from any kind of like heavy sugars, started just experimenting with diet more towards just fruit and veggies, some grains, but basically pretty much getting rid of the processed foods as much as possible.

Michael Frampton
How did it change things? What did you notice when you changed your diet?

Tom Carroll
It actually responded better to the anti-inflammatory drugs. And on top of that, it cooled down the knee a little bit, like it wasn't as hot all the time, which is a real indication of the condition flaring. So it cooled down, I felt lighter in my body. Yeah, I just felt like I could just do more stuff on the knee without it flaring up. And it gave me probably a few more years of just a little bit—just ramped the reaction in the body down, just pulled it down. But it was still there. I wasn't saying—I'm not saying it's not, but... but definite difference.

Michael Frampton
It does make a difference. Makes a—is huge.

Tom Carroll
I'd say 30, 40%, which is huge. And a great deal of—like I'd get up in the morning, get up and go.

Michael Frampton
Which...

Tom Carroll
It wasn't like I was—my, I've gotta kind of manage this thing straight away.

Michael Frampton
So you're basically cutting out sugar and processed foods? Sugar and...

Tom Carroll
Processed foods. Getting as much sugar out of—like any sort of processed food out of the diet. Just getting that stuff out. And then just—my whole system felt better for it anyway. So eventually the knee was still getting bigger because it starts to keep reacting to the amount of—well, as soon as I start feeling that freedom, I'm off and away. And I started creating more pressure on the knee. And so this creates—and as you get older, the knee actually wants to do it more. So it's had to help my—that was my experience. And then I was doing things like surfing the Idiyar Calvin, things like that, and surfing some big waves and took a big hit at Himalayas on a really big wave. And that was when—and it took a chunk out of the knee in the wipeout. And I went to get up—I was picked up by Cole Christensen actually—and he grabbed me and I got up on the sled and I went to jump up on the back seat. And I went—like I just knew something crap had just happened to my right knee. And I didn't even feel it when the wipeout happened, but when I went to get up on the skis, just the message was something really crap about your knee right now, Tom. So I found out—I went and did this X-ray and MRI in Hawaii and the Eddie was coming up. There was a couple of big swells—this was 2016 and that was a big year, January. And it was a big year. And I went back to Australia. I thought I'd just have to throw my hands up at the Eddie and not bother about it and get this thing taken out. So what happened was Eddie was called off on that swell, and then I got better in that little gap. And I could manage the little chunk. I ended up surfing the Eddie with a chunk hanging out in between the joint. And I don't know why I did that, but that was like the pinnacle of just—well, in a way kind of pushing everything, trying to push everything to the side and then going out. But it just gives you more fear, which is no good. Another added layer of fear, but—which doesn't help the situation. Then I went to get the piece taken out. That worked okay. And then I got caught wrapped around a piece of a coral head in Fiji a little later on in the year. And that was when I got another chunk. I got squashed, kind of squashed. If I went into flexion like that with my old knee, I'd be taking chunks off. And so I just threw my hands in the air then. And I started really—I'd done some research with doctors about getting TKR. And I went to two more doctors and finally made a decision on a doctor and went for it the next year in 2017. Okay.

Michael Frampton
But I mean, it does speak to something, which is, I mean, you had osteoarthritis for a long time and you won a world title or two on, with the osteoarthritis. 26 career of stuff.

Tom Carroll
Victories and lots.

Michael Frampton
Blah, all that stuff that everyone already knows about. Like all that stuff happened with very primitive ACL reconstruction and osteoarthritis.

Tom Carroll
So kind of basically surf with one leg. I was really—everyone goes, you're such a back foot surfer. I'm going, I'm just kind of in the back. I was like, I'm just trying to make do with what I got.

Michael Frampton
But it's, I mean, it does speak to an extreme way that it doesn't have to be the end of your life.

Tom Carroll
Absolutely not. And I think at the end of the day, like the injury itself taught me so much about how to deal with myself, I think. And actually sort of like, taught me how to kind of—it taught me to get closer to my body. Even though there were times when I was ignorant and went into ignorance around it, just to survive it. A coping mechanism, it can be ignorance, you know? So, but it certainly was a coping mechanism for me for a while, just to get by and get things done and kind of live each day. Because I'm being a really physical person and someone who really loves surfing, or proper loves it. You know, like there's not even a question that I just love doing it each day. And it gave me more than just the physical benefits, gave me so much more, but I wasn't gonna stop because this was holding me back.

Michael Frampton
I mean, the love of surfing was more important than a bit of knee pain. Yeah.

Tom Carroll
Yeah. So it did create quite a bit of that ignorance, which I didn't get to treat it. And I didn't know—I had no—first of all, I mean, the anti-inflammatory drugs, like before I went—I haven't had any anti-inflammatory drugs since I've had the total knee replacement, which is saying a lot. Like I was having—I was a really good customer. In fact, I had a source when I was in Hawaii where I could double the guy, get a doctor, get this doctor, he'd give me 50 milligram ones. My God, I could never get them here, but that was—that really helped.

Michael Frampton
So what advice do you have to, like the, you know, someone who's just a normal person who just wants to maybe—You do the gardening, maybe someone younger who wants to play a little bit of touch footy on the weekends or whatever.

Tom Carroll
Do the gardening.

Michael Frampton
And any advice for those sort of people about how to manage their arthritis?

Tom Carroll
Well, my experience is when I stopped doing things, when I slowed down on moving, when I stopped moving the joint, it got worse. So movement was really important, even against that kind of—if you need to take anti-inflammatories, which will reduce that, especially before and after the exercise, I recommend it because it'll help you stay active and the muscle groups around stay active. As soon as the muscle groups get inactive around the joint that's suffering the arthritic condition, the osteoarthritis, that's when the joint gets worse because the muscles really support the joint. The muscle activity and actually the way the segments of the muscles work kind of demand you not to think so much about the joint, more so about the actual action you're doing. So if you're playing, just running—say you're just—your running movement, you've got to think every time your foot hits the ground, you've got to think about that every time as you're doing—having a jog. If you're going for a 10K jog or something, if you had to think about that every time, it would just be—it would be so exhausting. So—and the body—it would, yeah, it'd get dull anyway. But to have it automatically all work in sequence, you don't want to have that pain response all the time in the joint because the pain response is what's gonna stop you from doing something, pull you back, and so the muscles stop working and you kind of—the muscle atrophy and the muscle inactivity is what we don't want. That was my experience. So I had to kind of push through to keep that moving and to work as much as I could on that sequence of muscle firing. So at least there was some sort of support for the joint. And I did that all the way to the end. And I got more and more—I think that was probably, you know, a way that got me going. And yeah, just make sure you're eating good food, putting really good, high quality food into the system, good nutrients. Like do exercises for the body that don't include that—to that joint. So don't, you know, do complex exercise for it, simplified exercises for it, and then do something that's only, you know, really involves the other part of the body. So you kind of send the messages right through the whole system. So if, you know, swimming without—say from a knee—it’s just swimming with a pool buoy, you know, like swimming so the upper body's working. So all that sort of thing. So you kind of get a cross-up of exercise throughout the whole body. The body wants that. Body loves that. So you're sending messages throughout the whole body.

Michael Frampton
So did you feel like if you didn't do exercise, the pain was worse?

Tom Carroll
Yep.

Michael Frampton
Interesting. And if you did too much, it got worse as well. So there's like a—there's a middle ground, so everyone has to find that—what is their middle ground?

Tom Carroll
Yeah? There's definitely a middle ground. Yeah. And you'll feel it. Yeah. You'll feel it. But the funny thing was that, you know, I had my deep frustrations with that too. It was tricky to find that. Because there were sometimes during the period when I didn't know I had osteoarthritis, there were times when it was painful. And I was wondering, what is that pain? I can't tell. And particularly on the outside of it, in this one particular point, where there was quite a bit of wear and tear, I found out. But I was always going, why is that pain all of a sudden there? And so it was hard to know. And it was stopping me from really doing stuff. At that point, it might only last half a day, or a few hours, or maybe one day. But it would usually come after a really heavy day of surfing, or a really heavy day of snowboarding, or somewhere where I'd have to do a lot of complex exercise over on top of the knee. Complex exercise, I mean by, like doing something that I don't want to think about. I'm doing something like surfing when it's really—or it's not like a simple squat routine.

Michael Frampton
How do you describe the symptoms of the arthritis pain?

Tom Carroll
Like this kind of ache, achy, focused ache, like around the area, but seemed to just radiate out from there. So—and it would be kind of around the whole somewhat, even though it'd be one particular part of the joint, it'd radiate through the joint. That was there, that it'd appear. And then it would come with a heat. Even though the heat was there for a lot of the time, the pain wasn't always there. The heat and the inflammation would just ramp up a bit. So I could feel—and sometimes it’d come with quite a bit of inflammation.

Michael Frampton
Was it sharp pain?

Tom Carroll
Sometimes.

Tom Carroll
Sharp, if I—sometimes it would be sharper than others, like I could lean, and again, it would be unexplainable sometimes why that would be sharp. Sharp all of a sudden, like, God, why’s it all of a sudden having to be sharp this afternoon? You know, like, and, you know, I didn’t really go that hard today or this morning or the night before doing something. A workout might’ve been, or, you know, I might’ve played a game of—I might’ve had to run through the rain, say, from the car to the shop. And it was a little bit extra long run because it’s pouring down with rain, and I’ve got some stuff that I’ve got to get from the shop to the car, and it’s a big—you know, something like that. Or I’ve got to run across the road, or I’ve got to, you know, we’re all running at the beach doing something because we’re being silly, or, you know, playing a game of touch football, or something like that, because I can’t not be involved, right? Later, I’d pay for that. And sometimes, I knew that I was going to pay for that.

Michael Frampton
But it was worth it?

Tom Carroll
It was worth it at the time. Yeah. But sometimes, yeah.

Michael Frampton
So you just had to what? You had to make sure that, okay, I’m going to do half an hour of touch footy. Yeah. Tomorrow, I’m just going to rest. Is that how you would?

Tom Carroll
I could do that from time to time. And that’s how I sort of pretty much managed. But I knew that either a couple of hours to the next day, after the exercise, I’d start to feel a change in the joint, and that sort of pain just slowly ramp up, or would be slow—slowly come on.

Michael Frampton
You get the diagnosis of osteoarthritis, and you lose all hope. Like, no, I can’t. Now, someone who’s in that situation right now, who feels like they’ve lost all hope for them gardening, or playing a bit of touch footy, or running around with the kids, or whatever they cherish doing, what advice do you have?

Tom Carroll
I would—I can say a good physiotherapist who knows about this condition, who treats people with this condition, see what sort of exercise you can do to support the body in this. Not that, you know, movements that you might be able to do to keep moving the body. And don’t go and lie down forever. Don’t just—I guess in a way, be really kind to yourself at the same time. And look at what you’re doing in your life that you can improve the chances of your body, you know, taking up the slack around it, which means you’re like changing—maybe changing your diet. Have a look at what you do. Try to drop the alcohol if you can. Like, I think alcohol’s a really—seemed to be—I remember back, I haven’t drunk any alcohol for like 13 years or something, and that was for another reason, but it’s like—and I would say, like, being a drug addict, being a, you know, suffering from drug addiction, I think the drug addiction, when I look back at it, had—you know, I was dealing with things with drugs at another level, at an emotional level. So, and there were quite a few years there with using kind of like amphetamines—there was like, I wouldn’t even feel it. So there was no—that was a really particularly—I wouldn’t say that’s not a great strategy. It actually has a really heavy end point, and people don’t come out of it. But I think that was part of kind of running away from it, the condition. So kind of go into the condition, if I can make it kind of a point of that—go into it and face into it.

Michael Frampton
Take ownership. Take ownership.

Tom Carroll
Of that condition, which is within you. And from that point, you can deal with it. You’re actually really dealing with it directly. And get moving, like keep the body moving. Drop—try, like I said, try to drop the alcohol, because I know that when I was drinking alcohol, it would flare up and be uncomfortable—more uncomfortable—just as a result of drinking alcohol. When I stopped drinking alcohol, it definitely sort of mellowed out and gave my body more chances of dealing with it without pain—so much pain and discomfort. Get really good dietary advice. Look into being on an anti-inflammatory diet. There’s a lot to be said for plant-based diet, but that’s not for everyone. I wouldn’t say that plant-based is—yeah, it’s not ideal for everyone, but sort of definitely ramp up your intake of green vegetables and just good solid high-quality nutrition food, nutrient food.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and what about in terms of like the mental side of it, the emotional side of it? Like any advice dealing with that?

Tom Carroll
Yeah, well, I think it’s nice to—I think any sort of—any of these sort of conditions, my mental approach to it was quite aggressive. So chilling that down is a good idea. So I found out that—I started meditation for a whole nother reason, but it’s definitely helped me on my emotional stability. And the meditation practice can be brought in, and that helps. It helps actually a lot of us kind of—I mean, I couldn’t sit still prior to—practicing meditation actually taught me how to sit still. I think that really helped me kind of get a better view of who I was with what was going on. I guarantee that gave me a better view of what was—a much more steady view. So steadying the mind with it will give you—from my experience, gave me a better position within myself and able to sort of make better decisions around it.

Michael Frampton
So meditation, I second that.

Tom Carroll
Yeah, it’s a good idea, I think.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, what style do you practice?

Tom Carroll
I use the Vedic meditation practice, which uses a mantra. Mantra is mind vehicle. So use a vehicle to transcend the mind activity. So we do that. I practice twice a day for 20 minutes. So that’s—but that’s something I’ve worked toward. I wouldn’t say that’s for everyone either. You know, even if you start off with just a few minutes of mindfulness in the morning when you wake up. And the thing is, it’s funny when I heard—you know, Seinfeld, he does the TM as well. This is the same as Transcendental Meditation. And he practiced it—he thought he was only supposed to do 20 minutes when he first woke up. And he did that for some years. He didn’t know the second practice in the afternoon was a part of it, because the teacher didn’t give it to him. But he found out the second one was—you know, and when he started doing that, he said, that completely doubled up my whole—the benefits doubled up, was, he said, like more than doubled, he said. But he said—he goes, it didn’t make sense. Why do I have to get up in the morning and meditate? I just love this thing, he goes. But if you put a camera in the room and watch you when you sleep, and what you do when you sleep, there’s a lot of exercise when we sleep. We’re flipping and flopping around, we’re moving around, we’re all over the shop and talking and carrying on and stuff. So the mind’s super active when we’re sleeping. So I found that advice that was given to me—to get up first thing and sit and practice the meditation—and that’s been my experience, incredibly beneficial for the last 13 years.

Michael Frampton
And can you point—people that wanna find out more about Vedic—point them in the right direction?

Tom Carroll
Yeah, okay, so the Vedic meditation is, you just punch it in on it.

Michael Frampton
Google. Google.

Tom Carroll
Google Vedic meditation, it's the same as Transcendental Meditation. Okay. And there's Transcendental Meditation, you can get taught that anywhere, pretty much in the world. It's everywhere. And I would say any kind of meditation, it doesn't have to be that kind of meditation. It's like, all meditation is good. It's not one is better than the other. It is through personal experience that I'll kind of mention it. It's something that's been super beneficial. Yeah, yeah, yeah, especially when we've been—particularly when we've been the ones just running around, just getting dragged around by our own head.

Michael Frampton
No, I second that as well. Meditation can be life-changing.

Tom Carroll
And all of a sudden you put this in and you go, my God. So this is what they're talking about.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So there is hope for osteoarthritis patients.

Tom Carroll
I think definitely there's a lot of hope. Right now I actually feel like I'm suffering a bit of it in my foot, in my right foot, from so much surfing. And I got to look at it. And I lost a tendon this year—the posterior tibialis tendon—which pulls the arch up in the foot. And I got a fin chop and it literally—and that tendon, you can't really replace. It's sort of like, you know, if you tied like a rope between that corner of the room and that corner of the room really tight, and then you chopped it, they just—you can't reconnect it. Even with a bit of prosthetic or a bit of grafted tendon, you can't do it. So he said, Tom, we don't want to do that surgery because not many successful ones come out of that. So what's happened now is my foot is—it wants to fall in, the arch. And so, and I'm starting to get some pain in the ball of the foot. And that's from having—that's from doing exercise and working on it and trying to get the arch in another way.

Michael Frampton
You can look at the Yamuna Foot Savers. Have you seen them?

Tom Carroll
No.

Michael Frampton
So they're kind of like—you get a—or even just get a lacrosse ball.

Tom Carroll
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Like those hard rubber balls and just hacksaw it in half. And you've got two sort of semi-dome, like two domes, and you can stand on them.

Tom Carroll
All right.

Michael Frampton
And you can just sort of—then your foot will take that shape of that arch. You can stand on different parts.

Tom Carroll
That's good. Yeah. I'll take it.

Michael Frampton
And you can sort of use your own muscles to take the shape of that form as well. So get some of the muscles that create that curve in the foot to get a little—wake them up a little bit.

Tom Carroll
Cool. Those are good. I'll...

Michael Frampton
But yeah, can—yep.

Tom Carroll
Check that out. They mean... What if you get lacrosse balls in Australia?

Michael Frampton
You definitely can. Amazon, get anything.

Tom Carroll
Just drop it at...

Michael Frampton
The door. I've got both. Yamuna Foot Savers are slightly smaller in diameter.

Tom Carroll
How do you spell Yamuna?

Michael Frampton
Y-U-M-U-N-A, I think. Yamuna. And they're a bit softer. The rubber's a little softer and it's hollowed out a little bit. So it's a bit more give than a lacrosse ball. But I used both of those things for my feet because I get foot tightness. It loosens them up. So did you cut it on a foil?

Tom Carroll
No, it was just a fish—you know, the fish keels—and it had a little edge to it, a Dick Van Straalen, beautiful fish. And I was just riding—I was about to send it back to him. I was like, I better have one more surf on that board. And it got me. Bugger. Yeah. And it went deep and it was just a small cut. And I'd gone, something really different about this cut. And I had a weird sort of cramp after. I'd never had this cramp, like right up into the leg. And I was like, what the fuck’s going on here? And it was just this tiny little cut that I didn't even hardly see. It was like that long, two stitches. And it was just perfectly in the spot. It couldn't have been the most perfect hit right there. And the two tendons come—there's the one that joins up to all these guys. It comes underneath and there's the tibialis posterior that just underneath the Lisfranc joint. And it spreads underneath the Lisfranc and pulls right up in the big long muscle behind the tibialis that actually holds that arch up. And now I've got to try and hold the arch up with my toes. And yeah, it's quite interesting. And it's still working.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's amazing how the body adapts.

Tom Carroll
And it's all on the prosthetic joint and knee. So that adds to the challenge.

Michael Frampton
You're just destined to be a back-footed surfer, right?

Tom Carroll
That's it. I'm really on the back foot, like fully. But foiling—talk about foiling—that kind of almost demands me to be somewhat even in a more delicate fashion than on a board. And learning all this new way of kind of turning out at the top of the wave and trying to do it and really being enthusiastic about it. Like I come out of that and go, the whole thing's just going, what are you doing, Tom? I'm going, no, but you can do it. And then these sort of—I think it's actually helping. I think it's actually really helping to get that strong, get it all kind of talking to itself really well.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay, so you had total knee replacement?

Tom Carroll
Yep.

Michael Frampton
When was that?

Tom Carroll
April 28, 7, 8.

Michael Frampton
Okay. Yeah. So it's been two and a half years?

Tom Carroll
Yeah. I think it's even improving now. Still—still improving.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Tom Carroll
I've got still—feels like I've got a chance of improvement through it.

Michael Frampton
And are you glad that you had that done?

Tom Carroll
Absolutely, yeah. It's like—it was such a freaky decision to make because I was so attached to that fucked up old knee. I thought I was going, am I going to be able to do this and that? But there was plenty of—there was quite a couple of really good examples of guys, my age and younger had actually had them and really—and older too—who'd actually gone to do all their sports and what they love doing. And I just wanted to surf, like some decent-sized surf and push it a bit. And my doctor was just like, you know, I've got a—he goes, I've got a bad one on my hands here. A sketchy one on my hands. He’s always—his assistants on my case quite a bit. But he was a bit wary of me. But I said—yeah, he was—I went through these surgeons and I went, no, you're the guy. Because I was—first I was actually looking for a surgeon to make the decision for me because I just didn't want to make the decision. But then I went—I just go, you've got to make the decision, buddy. It says a lot about me. But I went to four surgeons and finally found Dr. David Parker, who I found that after talking to the physiotherapists of the surgeons that treated their patients, I got more information from them about how the patients came out.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, because you don’t—you can talk to the surgeons and the surgeons are really—know what they're doing. That's good advice.

Tom Carroll
I mean, they're incredible people. Amazing what they're doing. They're like these finely tuned mechanics, and they're really good ones. They really see the outcomes and stuff, and they're involved in the outcomes, but it's the physiotherapists that do the real hard yards with the patient. And from all levels, not just the physical level. They say physiotherapists, but they're doing the other mental work as well. Yeah, they're coaching the person through some of the most painful work they'll ever have to do.

Michael Frampton
They're coaches.

Tom Carroll
In particular, people who've never been physical or never been in a gym or never done anything before in their life. And they've got to rehab this new joint that's totally foreign to their body.

Michael Frampton
So successful knee surgery then, knee replacement.

Tom Carroll
Yeah, really, I'm really, yeah, feel really.

Michael Frampton
And you're still surfing lots on it, it's fine?

Tom Carroll
I just love surfing on it, yeah. The thing does the job. I mean, I definitely—there's tight—there's certain tightnesses, ‘cause I push it a bit. And I'm trying to get everything to wake up and get stronger in the hip and in the glutes and the actual groin muscles. And I've been working in yoga and in balancing workouts in the gym using Swiss ball and BOSU ball and cable row and TRX band and stuff like that to kind of create tensions and balance work and, you know, the kettlebells. So doing stuff like that to kind of challenge the overall complex movement of balance.

Michael Frampton
Getting stronger.

Tom Carroll
Yeah. And foiling, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Foiling on it.

Tom Carroll
I wouldn't think I was foiling on a prosthetic knee, for sure.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, wow. It's holding up. How's the foiling journey?

Tom Carroll
It's weird. I never thought I'd be on a foiling journey. It's fricking awesome. It's like one of the most amazing feelings. It's really different than actually riding a wave on the board. That’s why I love it, because it's so different. It's really a big challenge to kind of keep that foil and understand and read water differently. It's opening my eyes to all these ways of—I mean, I wanna ride small waves. I'm not into doing the big wave stuff that Laird's doing, or some of the guys are doing. I'm nowhere near any of that stuff. I've got a little kind of spark in me that wants to do it, but learning at the moment just to get around, and then it feels amazing. It's like flying. It's like flying.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it looks amazing. It looks so efficient as well.

Tom Carroll
Super efficient. It slides—slips into—the foil slips into that bubble of energy that’s sort of, you know, like that. Sort of, it kind of—what the dolphins, or—you know, catch it, tap into, you know, that energy. And the foil slips into that. There's this sort of free movement, that glide, that you just—you might get on a fish board, on like a really flat straight board, or a little concave, or on any—you go fish, and you just get out on the bump of the wave and you're flying along on the bump, and there's hardly any wave. And that's kind of a little bit foil-like, but it's hard to explain. And then—but to balance up there and to keep it going and keep it level and sort of then start to surf it and then bring surfing into it—‘cause you gotta take surfing out. The surfing program has to be taken out to learn it, which is really good. I think that for me, it was really good because it actually gave me a lot of enthusiasm for surfing. ‘Cause as soon as I got back in on something I knew, and I kind of threw it out, and I had to kind of recheck in on my surfing. And it puts me in these funny positions with something I thought I knew really well. So I'm kind of—it really, it challenged me in all these different levels of skill.

Michael Frampton
And you showed me your foil. Shout out to the makers of the foil.

Tom Carroll
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Armstrong Foils.

Tom Carroll
Yeah, the boys over there in New Zealand. They have done an exceptional job at putting their foil systems together and just creating a beautiful, like super swift foil. It's really—they're really efficient in the water. And they're just a really solid unit. Everything just fits really sweet and solid. You want that in the foil. And you just don't want any give in the foil.

Michael Frampton
So how would you describe your relationship to the ocean currently?

Tom Carroll
It's just evolving. I feel really at home in the ocean. It's kind of my home. In a way, you call it my spiritual home. That's kind of one of those spiritual homes where I feel it's incredibly important to me.

Michael Frampton
Does it ever have any—do you ever feel like it's got something over you?

Tom Carroll
I think it's got a lot over me.

Michael Frampton
Yeah?

Tom Carroll
Yeah. It's too big to even fathom. You know what I mean? Like, you think about how big that thing is out there and the movements and the grand kind of movement of the ocean, how it moves. It's so massive. And it's like—but she welcomes me every time with open arms. So I go with her, you know, and I just stay alert to all her warnings and try to be—try to really respect every warning sign that she offers. ‘Cause she's throwing them out there all the time.

Michael Frampton
So you're doing a—you're starting to do meditation?

Tom Carroll
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Trips?

Tom Carroll
Yeah. Teaching meditation. I'm in the middle of the teaching course at the moment and super interesting for me to get to the point of teaching, ‘cause I've never really—I struggle with the idea of myself being regarded as a teacher. But—and that's got to get broken down ‘cause I really want to get this into people. For me, seeing people benefit from giving them some meditation—the benefit is like profound, like it's such a profound benefit. So—and being such a need of the time at the moment—I think the more people I can get to get a practice of meditation in, the absolute better, you know. Like, that’s—the better we can all get going in our lives. And so that's what I'm moving towards doing. I've got a retreat in June in Bali at Uluwatu Surf Villas from the 21st to the 28th of June. And looking to do one on the East Coast of the US at North Carolina, the Outer Banks there with the Real Water Sports crew out there. And we haven’t set dates yet, but that’s looking pretty cool.

54 Tom Carroll 3 - A Strong Knee

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