002: TOM CARROLL - 2x World champ shares some insights into how he got so good.
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: "Tom Carroll on Small Waves, Big Waves, and Staying Stoked for Life"
What if improving your small-wave surfing skills could transform your performance in all wave conditions—and even extend your surfing longevity?
This episode dives deep into the insights of two-time world champion surfer Tom Carroll, as he discusses the art of mastering small waves, the mindset for surfing longevity, and the importance of nutrition and fitness for surfers of all ages. Whether you're struggling with small-wave technique, looking to stay agile as you age, or curious about pro-level insights, this episode has something for you.
In this episode, you’ll discover:
How mastering small waves can unlock better performance in bigger surf.
The surprising role of mindset, fitness, and agility in maintaining surfing longevity.
Tom Carroll’s nutrition tips, fitness routines, and personal practices for staying light, agile, and energized in the water.
Don’t miss this episode packed with timeless wisdom from Tom Carroll—hit play now and take your surfing to the next level!
Tom talks about some of the strategies he used to take his surfing to the next level, as well as some great tips on surf longevity and nutrition.
Summary - Look for the detail on the wave. Pay close attention to the finer details of the wave, the wind chops, the secondary swell, the backwash, every bump, nook, and cranny. Look at the way the light reflects off of every small ripple, look to see where and how water is moving and where it is moving most so you can generate speed. If you want to surf small waves better, then this is how. Get focused and start paying attention… and put the time in - lots of practice!
Contact Tom at tom@tomcarrollpaddlesurf.com
https://www.instagram.com/p/-ShD3QOnjz/
Key Points:
Tom Carroll discussed how surfing small waves in the 1980s helped improve his overall surfing ability, including big wave surfing.
Tom mentioned learning techniques from observing other surfers like Tom Curren and Wes Lane, who excelled at surfing small waves.
Tom emphasized the importance of fitness training, including aerobic exercises and agility drills, to improve his small wave surfing.
Tom discussed the value of proper nutrition and shared insights from Kelly Slater on the 75/25 nutrition ratio.
Tom highlighted the benefits of a light attitude and enjoying the experience of surfing, regardless of wave conditions.
Tom talked about the importance of board selection and experimenting with different equipment for small wave surfing.
Tom discussed the value of surfing small waves for maintaining agility and quickness as he ages.
Tom mentioned working with a nutritional cleanse program and coaching others on improving their diets.
Outline:
Experiences and Strategies for Improving Small Wave Surfing
In the 1980s, professional surfing events often took place in less-than-ideal conditions, including small waves at city beaches. This necessitated becoming proficient in all types of surf conditions.
Tom was inspired to improve their small wave surfing after observing Tom Curren's impressive performance in small waves, particularly his ability to do full roundhouse cutbacks.
To enhance small wave surfing, several strategies were implemented, which included increased time spent surfing in challenging small wave conditions, sometimes up to six hours a day; focusing on understanding board dynamics in small surf and how they interacted with the body; engaging in cross-training, including aerobic exercise classes and weight training, to improve agility, speed, and overall fitness; and practicing surfing waves that were not particularly enjoyable, which helped mentally prepare for less-than-ideal competition conditions.
Emphasis was placed on technique in small wave surfing, which included getting low and using subtle compression and expansion movements during turns; generating power through the center of the body; making the first turn count by pushing against the fins and boTom Carroll of the board to generate momentum; and observing and feeling the power source in the wave, even in small conditions.
Mixing up equipment was suggested, including trying longer boards in smaller waves to improve technique and understanding of turn mechanics.
Fitness and Training Contributions to Surfing Success
Participation in intense aerobic exercise classes included ballistic movements, dance-heavy routines, and extensive core workouts.
These classes improved agility, speed, and overall fitness, which translated to better performance in both small and big wave surfing.
Modern equivalents like speed, agility, and quickness (SAQ) training are recommended, similar to what current pro surfers incorporate into their routines.
Emphasis is placed on full-body movements, balance work, and training that requires quick thinking and reaction.
For maintaining surf fitness in later years, regular surfing is suggested to maintain the ability to quickly transition from prone to standing position, along with complementary exercises like swimming for cardio fitness, agility work, weight training, and bodyweight exercises focusing on core strength.
Nutrition's Role in Surfing Performance
Exploration of nutrition's impact on athletic performance began in the mid-1980s, influenced by training partner Mike Kneeling.
Various nutritional approaches were experimented with, including eating simple, whole foods like buckwheat and steamed vegetables; using supplements such as Korean red ginseng and brewer's yeast; practicing juice fasting and grape fasting for short periods; and sourcing organic foods and cooking meals while on tour.
The importance of maintaining a diet consisting of 75-80% high-quality, nutrient-dense foods is highlighted, allowing for 20-25% less nutritious options without compromising overall health and performance.
Currently working with a nutritional cleanse program helps others improve their diet and overall well-being.
Maintaining Surfing Ability in Later Years
Continued high-level performance is attributed to maintaining high expectations for surfing, focusing on enjoying the ride and the overall surfing experience, keeping an open mind about equipment and wave conditions, and maintaining a light attitude and physical body.
Regular surfing is emphasized to maintain the ability to quickly transition from prone to standing position, which is crucial for overall health and longevity.
Maintaining a weight close to competition days, currently 68kg compared to 64-65kg, helps with agility and performance.
Favorite Surfing-Related Items
The current favorite board is a 5'5" Cali quad by Max Stewart from Isometry Surfboards.
The favorite surf movie is "Free Ride," which had a significant impact during their teenage years.
Favorite surfers include Kelly Slater for evolving style and wave approach, CJ and Damien Hobgood, and Luke Egan among favorite goofy-footers.
Pre-surf music includes a variety of genres, from classical (Chopin) to contemporary (soundtrack from "Interstellar"), emphasizing the personal nature of pre-surf music choices.
Transcription:
And that actually improved my big wave surfing. I was actually seeing more in a wave.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better.
Well, I was talking to Kelly Slater a few years back. We were sharing some stuff around nutrition, and at the time, I'm never getting seen.
Michael Frampton
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Today I'm here with Tom Carroll. For those that don't know, Tom is two-time surfing world champ in '83 and '84. Tom won the Triple Crown in '91. Tom has 26 career victories on the tour, including three Pipe Masters as well. Tom is an accomplished stand-up paddle boarder, a well-respected big wave rider, including many Eddie invites, and has done Storm Surfers in 2012 with Ross Clark-Jones.
I could go on and on, but I won't. But what I wanted to ask you, Tom, was—back in the 80s when you were on tour, it wasn't the dream tour back then, was it?
Tom Carroll
Very far from the dream tour.
Michael Frampton
So you had decent waves during the Triple Crown, but earlier on in the year, there was a lot of one- to two-foot slop.
Tom Carroll
You know, professional surfing kind of started off with, on local beaches, city beaches, as well as places like Hawaii. In the 80s, it had got to the point where, yeah, the promotion of the sport really sort of centered around the larger populated areas, and they weren't necessarily the great surf spots.
Yeah, well, yeah, it was all about surfing everything and anything.
Michael Frampton
So you really had to be very much an all-round surfer, didn't you?
Tom Carroll
The actual format of the events was—there was no waiting period. It was five days, there were two days of trials, three days of the main event, and it would go over those five days no matter what the conditions were.
So you knew that event was gonna go. So that was certain.
So what wasn't certain was the waves, and you just had to make do with what you got. Going to really small wave spots on the East Coast of the US, you know, even in Australia when the surf got really small and challenging, you had to get really good at surfing small waves, and that wasn't my kind of best suit.
Well, first of all, what spurred me on was Tom Curran, in particular. He came on the tour, and I'd just been rising up pretty, in a very strong way.
Michael Frampton
Really. It wasn't your forte.
So tell me, how did you learn how to surf small waves better?
Tom Carroll
And I started getting hold of, you know, not quite winning events yet, but I was making my headway in most events that I was competing in. And then all of a sudden, Tom Curran turns up, and he was in South Africa in 1981—I think it was '82, one of those two years. And I remember watching him surf on this really small wave, like really small wave at the Bay of Plenty in Durban and going, he's doing full roundhouse cutbacks.
Like, and I was going, wow, how do you do that? Like it was—and he had a really weird wide stance. It was completely different than the way he surfs now.
And then he'd do these really complete roundhouse cutbacks, and that looked really cool, and I liked it. And that inspired me, and I knew that was gonna be trouble. I instantly knew that was gonna be trouble for me.
In the next couple of years, I needed to really address my small wave surfing and get better at understanding my surf, my boards in small surf, and my body in small surf, and the whole idea of hours—practicing in small surf.
Michael Frampton
So time in the water and then small...
Tom Carroll
Surf. Time in the water and particularly challenging small surf, like waves that I had to kind of fit in specific moves before the end of the ride.
Yeah, and I had to sort of make equipment and look at how to make boards that really fit into those waves and ones that fit into my surfing and my body and the way it worked.
Michael Frampton
So board selection is key and obviously watching Tom Curran.
Tom Carroll
Watching Curran, watching people like Tom, but there were other really good small wave surfers. One in particular from the East Coast was Wes Lane. He was a really tall guy. Really like, he was like six plus—six two, six one, maybe six three, maybe. He was tall, Wes, but man, he could surf small waves so well because he came from Virginia Beach on the East Coast there and used to long summers of hardly any waves and surfing just tiny East Coast waves.
And I remember him coming over and doing the events and hanging out at my home beach here in Newport in Sydney. And I couldn't believe how well he surfed just the smallest little shore break all the way. And that counted for a lot back then because length of ride was really big too back then.
So, you know, if you could surf the wave all the way as far as you possibly could and still do full complete maneuvers, you could score up pretty big.
Michael Frampton
Is there anything else you can think of that helped you to surf faster in the small waves?
Tom Carroll
Physically, I had started to train. We looked at some other sports, you know, and see what kind of time other athletes put into their sport. I looked at, you know, tennis and hours on the court. Dance, the dance, you know, ballet and all that sort of stuff and how much time they put into what they were doing, and thought, well, if I wanted to get really good, even better at what, you know, I would need to put more time in and just lift the hours up in the areas which really needed improvement.
I worked out, did cross-training. I started doing aerobic exercise classes before I'd actually done weight training and strength training after having a knee operation when I was 20 years of age. And the weight training that I did—it stiffened me up. It actually made me, you know, slower on the wave.
So what we started to do was—I needed to get quicker. I needed to, you know, move more, be more agile on the wave, as for Tom Curran and Marco Coluppo were coming on, and Martin Potter and people like that were real agile and fast. And so I needed to get more agile and fast.
So I started stretching, started lengthening. I started doing these crazy aerobic exercise classes.
So I had a lot of fitness level. Back then, they were really dangerous to do. You just don't do these kinds of classes now—super ballistic kind of movements, a lot of dance-heavy movements. And we'd do—I’d do sometimes two classes in a row.
Like, so there'd be like two hours of intense workout. And usually with a crazed female, like who's like a jazz dancer, but is hell-bent on just kicking your ass. And I remember doing it. It was one of those—I remember doing it and getting into it and going, okay, I'm gonna kick your ass too, you know?
Like, so I got—but we did a lot of—I got a lot of benefit out of it. Got my fitness levels up doing that. And got lighter on my feet. There was a lot of running, sprinting, a lot of intense full-range movement sort of exercise. A lot of stomach workout, some stomach workouts that would go for, probably take up almost half the class—some stomach workouts.
So we were doing, yeah, quite really intense work. And then, so we were doing one of those, say, five days a week.
And then alongside doing sometimes six hours of surfing a day. So we were lifting all that right up and just gaining a lot of stamina through doing that. And fitness levels, yeah, went through the roof.
And actually, my small wave surfing improved out of sight from that. And, you know, not over just like a month, but over say—doing that whenever you can put that sort of time in and focus on improving over two to three months, and you start getting real results. And that's what I really got out of that.
That I could actually, you know, stick to something and then get the results. And that was really cool. That actually showed me I could do—I could lift my game. And that actually improved my big wave surfing. That, or my approach in bigger waves and power actually improved a lot. Just my approach to the wave improved.
Michael Frampton
Those old school aerobics classes were very high impact and lots of agility, wasn’t...
Tom Carroll
It? Yeah.
Like, you know, like jumping around, jumping—like almost plyometric, it kind of worked. And dancing the same, and then running, and then doing this, and then sprinting back the other way and doing that.
And then—and real like burning kind of squats. Like you just completely burnt. And this girl, I remember this girl, she was an amazing dancer. There were a couple of girls up there—Chatswood Chase Fitness Center it was. That's where we used to go up there and do them and then come back.
And there was another place in town in Castlereagh Street, we used to go there and surf Bondi. Because at that time, we were surfing waves that I didn't particularly want to surf. Really, I was going to places where I didn't really want to surf because I knew that I had to challenge myself in that area.
Because quite often you'd be presented the day and the event would come up, and you had to surf, and it was just not where the time you wanted to surf.
You know, you had to actually practice surfing waves you didn't want to surf. So that was really important in a mental exercise.
But coming back to, yeah, the aerobics—back then it was very dangerous. They wouldn't do it today. And the kind of, you know, like holding—you'd do like plyometrics one set, next one would be like holding, like static holds until you just couldn't hold, and she'd be just looking at you going, come on, you can do better than that.
You know, I remember it just plainly—just going through the burn and the pain of it. But I got to a point where I kind of, yeah, my body lifted to it, and I liked it. And I got through some pretty intense stuff.
Michael Frampton
So I guess the modern-day version of that, you could do some like SAQ, some speed, agility, and quickness training. I saw a recent video actually—Julian Wilson was doing some of that sort of stuff.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, I saw that too. Yeah. That sort of stuff would be awesome. Anything where you've got to use your whole body, and you've got to balance through it, through the whole range. And yeah, and you've got to think on your feet when you're moving. Just like anything that's surfing.
I mean, surfing, you really kind of can't, you can't think—you can almost go to feel it as you move and twist and move. But yeah, practicing and training the body, getting it strong in the full range of movement.
Like that Julian Wilson stuff was good.
Michael Frampton
For folks listening, it's just a video of Julian doing some sprint training and some agility work through some cones and an agility ladder. And to do that sort of stuff, you need to be very fast and almost kind of light on your feet in a way. Your foot has to spend less time on the ground but still produce maximum power.
So when you went through that few months of really surfing small waves for six hours a day and training, did you come out of that then kind of enjoying surfing small waves more because you were better at it?
Tom Carroll
Absolutely, the payoff was awesome. Like I actually got—I was actually seeing more in a wave. I literally started to observe more in just small surf and saw it for what it was and saw the work it offered me because the results came, which were really affirming.
So yeah, I mean, I was much more tuned into my small wave equipment and understood what board was gonna work well. And I got right off on like a little five-six I had, and I forget—a really nice five-nine, those two boards. We were riding longer boards back in those days, and to have like a five-six in your quiver, well, I was a little guy, but five-six was really small.
Yeah, it was a small board back then, and everyone's riding like six-twos and six-threes, and five-eleven was small. Five-ten was so small. But I loved that little five-six. It was an awesome little board and had belly channels, and the first thrusters came in, and they were part of those first thrusters I rode, and I just loved them. They finally gave me kind of hold and speed, and it was a really nice time to be surfing.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So when you say you saw small waves for what they were, you mean you started to see the finer details on the wave, where to get speed from?
Tom Carroll
Absolutely, yeah. You're finding sections that you never saw before, and you're jumping onto bumps and little bits and pieces. I mean, I remember going to surf an event in Florida.
So I went over to surf this Florida event, and Florida was really too small to surf that year. And they even got a boat to drive along and try to make a wake one day, and I was just standing around. And I never met Kelly Slater there. He was just this little kid with his brother and his dad, this little kid with these piercing eyes, and I was like, how's this kid's eyes? Pretty cool, such a grom, total grommet.
And we went up to surf. We then ended up finding a little beach where there was actually possibly a wave, and that's when I witnessed the Florida guys doing what they call the gator crawl. These guys knew where the power source in the wave was. They understood—they could suck blood out of a stone, those guys. Literally, there was no wave. I was going, how come they're surfing? It was amazing.
They did this thing called the gator crawl, and what they do is they get down—just to get one last maneuver on the wave, they get down on a shallow part of the sandbar. They'd be coming along the white water, somehow turning into the white water, and then they'd get the foot down on the sandbar, scoot along like it was a skateboard, get back on their board, and do one more move.
So, and that's what they call the gator crawl because, you know, the gator—Florida. So that was pretty outrageous, watching that and noticing how these guys could do what they were doing on nothing. Basically, that's where Kelly comes from. He comes from that East Coast thing where he could see more in a wave and got taught more about a wave because there was less.
Michael Frampton
So what advice would you give to someone who really wanted to up their small wave game? We've already mentioned agility training, making sure you're on the right board. Maybe just expand on what you say when the wave looks different. What are you looking for?
Tom Carroll
Okay, well, I just noticed—well, when I'm trying to make my own speed with my body, I mean, technique is a really big thing in small surf. You know, being agile, you know, you can be agile, but if your technique's not there, you know, it's all about basically getting down low and actually expanding and compressing. In and out of turns in a really subtle way, using the center of the body to actually generate power through your body.
So that can—when you're looking at a wave and you're paddling for a wave and there's nothing much there—observing where you can actually jump to your feet and then basically make that first turn and hit a section straight away. You can't just stand up and just stand there on a small wave. You really gotta get up and make your own momentum.
So getting up and then pushing against the fin and the bottom of the board, the fins and the bottom of the board just sort of generate that first bit of displacement out of the hull of the board and then pushing against that. And then you'll find yourself getting to where, possibly where you'll find that one little bit of wall face, whatever you've observed as you're paddling for the wave.
So that first turn counts for a lot. Where are you gonna go? And on any wave, but particularly on little waves that have got no power, we're looking for opportunity.
So just to get that momentum going that will carry you into the next turn. So with a finer view for that and a finer eye for that, we get to sort of understand water movement that much better. Because a lot of surfing is all about understanding water movement and making it second nature.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So you're almost looking for the little—the smaller waves and ripples on the small wave.
Tom Carroll
Well, you're feeling the power source again. It's like that momentum of a swell that sort of—we all kind of suss out. As people who understand waves, we're kind of looking for water movement to catch. We're looking for that sort of change in light on the water, the way the light's bouncing off the water, and then you get that moving lump. It can mean a bump coming the other way from a wind chop or something doubling over itself, sort of doubling up on itself.
And it takes so much practice to really understand what a small wave is gonna do. And that's what happened for me. I got to understand what water was doing better from that time spent—that kind of intimate moments, those intimate moments where I thought time was going backwards.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Like that combination of frustration and determination.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, combination of those two. Yeah. Hang on, I'm sure the clock said that, but it's saying this. Okay.
Michael Frampton
So you mentioned technique in small waves and how important that is. Did you have help from anyone from a technique perspective during that time?
Tom Carroll
No, I guess I didn't. But I did have someone who had kind of an idea of what was needed. I had a manager at the time. His name is Peter Manstead. He was a bit of a personal intrusion in my life in many ways. But he was actually quite good at seeing what was needed for you to succeed.
So he kind of guided me into that discipline in a way, in a sense. You know, he had his own interests in there, but he really believed in the situation and where we could go and what we could do. I wasn't necessarily this crazy crazed competitor.
To be honest, I know it sounds very strange with all the results sort of facing me. I wasn't necessarily—I'm not 24/7 competitive like I know a lot of great sports people are. But more so, I was into the technique of things or the feeling of the board in particular. And what I really liked about certain specific surfing. I had a particular idea about that.
And I liked the way surfing felt as I got better at it. And I could feel that improvement coming. I did get good feedback from certain people. And I latched onto certain ideas around surfing, around what was good surfing.
At first, it probably wasn't that good. Like, well, there were some times when it wasn't that advantageous. So back in the single fin days, we used to ride off the twin fin guys because they just weren't real surfers. And I think that was more like a movement where we were involved with these young males.
You're getting a pack, and no, you point the finger at the other group. Until you start riding twin fins. But I think I didn't really get any technical help. I remember asking a couple of the judges along the way because I struggled watching some surfers do really well and wondering why and so on.
So I needed to ask the judges certain specific things and get feedback from them. I don't know whether that's too appropriate today, but I used to go up to judges and go, what do you need? What is this?
You know, what do I need to do with my own surfing? So I did ask for guidance with the judges from time to time, which was very helpful for me. I tried my hardest not to point any blame at the judges along the way and tried my hardest to focus in on what I could do to improve my surfing and work towards that rather than what seemed to be a horrible hole to fall in.
And that was like pointing the finger at the judges and calling them all kinds of names to get super angry at them. I just didn't see any point in that.
So that was particularly tricky for us in a subjective sport.
Michael Frampton
Okay. So we've mentioned more time surfing small waves, improving your agility and your quickness, learning and practicing to see the small wave differently, to look for the parts of the wave where you can get speed from. You mentioned the feeling as well. You mentioned feeling a bit. Do you find you... You mentioned feeling the power of the wave. Did you become more aware of sort of what you were sensing through your feet and through your spatial awareness?
Tom Carroll
Absolutely. It's like, yeah, I used to love that feeling. And that's what I was really addicted to, I think, in surfing—is that feeling of feeling the bottom of the board and feeling the potential of the surfboard, feeling the potential of myself and the wave together as a little source of energy, I guess.
And articulating—I can articulate it better now than what I could back then, but I was just sort of basically walking around searching for that good feeling of moving around the wave fast in full kind of, I guess, unity with the energy of the wave and the momentum that I could create.
And then particular sort of using my body in certain ways that can get down low and really—I wouldn't say dominate sections, but feel like I wanted to really push hard and get the pushback from the wave. And especially as the waves got bigger, get that real strong pushback.
And it's just sort of lovely watching some young guys now, watching what they do with the air and the technique, and see how they use specific parts of the wave to get launched on or do really big turns. It's like they've got such a great sense and feel for what the wave's about to do. And it's not necessarily what it's doing right now—it's actually what it's about to do.
So because it's all happening very quick. So if we get a sense for that movement and predetermine, just to get a little hunch on what's about to happen.
Michael Frampton
Predicting the future. Yeah.
Tom Carroll
Predicting the future. And then we're always predicting the future on the wave.
Yeah, we're always going, okay, well, I'm... And the more we do it, the more we sense it. And so we're kind of little time machines running around. But on a wave in particular, because it's always moving, you can't stop it and go.
Let's say snowboarding—you can stop on the hill and go, okay, well, we can stop here, and then we can make a jump here, and then we can always go back to that same jump. Even though every jump—everything changes—but basically, it's fairly static. And you can come back and make adjustments to this and that.
Whereas on a wave, it's just a miracle we're out where we're at with surfing. Because it's such a changing environment. But just noticing specific parts of the wave, getting yourself really familiar with changing conditions, and just getting out there no matter what and putting yourself in positions that are kind of adverse.
They're not always pretty. In actual fact, some of the final surfs are when it's not that pretty, to be honest.
Michael Frampton
So I guess even small waves, you can find that power. You get a feeling for power and speed in any size wave. Just takes a bit of practice.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, and once you get your technique going, you can jump onto a longer board and actually surf a longer board in smaller waves. Once we start to get to that point, then we start to understand the turn better and actually the design of the board better in relation to your own power source, which is pretty much the core of your body and your technique combination.
So if you get a really nice technique, your strength and your core's really good, and you've got some agility around it, you can take a longer board out and actually ride a smaller wave on it. It's against everything, but what you'll do is you'll actually improve your technique as long as it's full and round and each movement is full and round, and the full rail movement is full cutback, you know, a full bottom turn, a full off-the-top, full rotation through the turn on a bigger board, and then jump back on your little board and see what happens.
It's pretty cool what you get out of that. And even if you jump on a smaller board and in a big wave and feel it—yeah, the other way around.
Michael Frampton
So mixing up your equipment keeps it fresh and helps as well. Yeah.
Tom Carroll
Yeah, keep it fresh and gives you another understanding. I wouldn't have too many choices. Like I have, like I've got way too much choice. I wouldn't wish that on too many people. I know that it's best just to have, really stick to maybe two boards, maybe, you know, in our Sydney area, maybe two boards. If you know, you can focus on just enjoying two boards, you know, generally, and not too many more. You'll actually—you'll have your own frustrations with the surfboard or whatever, but you'll edge towards that, improving your technique and understanding.
Michael Frampton
You mentioned learning to surf smaller waves helped your surfing in other waves and big waves as well. How does that work?
Tom Carroll
Well, because we're always looking for power, and all of a sudden there's just ample power. We know—we're actually noticing more too. Your concentration's better. You can see more of the power source, understand the power source better. I think there's just increased awareness around the power source. It's just more time spent with water in the way and observing its finer parts. As long as it's concentrated effort in the little waves and it's not sort of dull effort, you will improve your big wave surfing by surfing small. Okay.
Michael Frampton
Let's summarize. So to improve one's surfing in small waves, it can improve our fitness and agility. We can start looking at the wave differently and in more detail, really looking to see where the power is, the smaller waves, the changes of light, as well as trying to feel the source of power in that wave as well through our body and the way we move, as well as getting some feedback, you mentioned as well.
So back in your day, surf coaching and videos weren't as common as nowadays, but nowadays we're so lucky we can go down the road and get a surf coach to film us and get feedback straight away. So that's obviously gonna help as well.
Tom Carroll
Really helps that stuff. Yeah. And you get the reality of your own surfing.
Yeah. It really helps.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Nowadays, and you're in your 50s, you're still surfing small waves just as well. Now that fascinates me.
Yeah. Because technically speaking, most people have sort of that perspective as, when we get older, we lose our agility and our quickness. But I've seen you surfing small, horrible waves with more power and vigor than people half your age.
So tell us about surf longevity and what can you attribute that to?
Tom Carroll
Good question. I think because I've done so much of it, I kind of demand a certain thing out of my body and how I'm feeling in the water. There is definitely a certain level that I aspire to and within myself that needs to be kind of—I guess the desire needs to be fulfilled.
Michael Frampton
So you have high expectations. Got it.
Tom Carroll
High expectations, but not necessarily, because now I can actually go out surfing and have a real easy run and not be too bent out of shape around it or not even get bent out of shape. Whereas back in the day, I would be down on myself if I didn't get to a certain level on the wave, what I expect. Now it's not quite like that at all. It's a different story. I really go out there to enjoy the ride.
You know, I really go out to enjoy myself in the water. And I've been doing that for a while now. A real focus on enjoying the wave, enjoying my equipment—still a focus on equipment, still a focus on just enjoying surfing for surfing's sake and just taking a wave, not placing a huge priority on, you know, what kind of surf it has to be, you know, just paddling out and enjoying it.
And I think that's—and with still, like I said, with a focus on equipment and enjoying my equipment and having all that—no rules on what to ride, you know? So, you know, I've got to ride this or I've got to ride that. I've got to be this kind of person. It's just been ruled out of my life in many ways, where back in the 80s, you know, you were a shortboard rider. That guy was a longboard rider. He's a bodyboarder. And it was just—it was really closed-minded way back in the day.
But for me today, I've got a lot of options. So as far as like the stand-up paddle surf and longboard or surf with my daughter, surf with my girl and not take it too seriously, you know, just go out and enjoy it. Some fun little boards to play with and just mixing it up like that. I think staying light, you know, with my attitude, staying light with my physical body, you know, my body, staying light.
I think that's key because surfing really demands kind of agility and being able to get to your feet swiftly and get around the lineup quickly, you know, sort of hunt down waves which kind of look good to me still, you know? I want to get that wave. I'm going to jump on it.
So still love riding a good wave, you know. Still love it. So I don't think that's going away anytime soon.
Michael Frampton
Do you think it's your lightness of attitude and your enjoyment that's progressing in surfing rather than your performance?
Tom Carroll
What's progressing for me is, I think, my aim is healthy kind of aging. And my aim is to be able to surf for as long as I can. That in itself, I think, is a progression, you know, aim at that sort of progress.
Yeah, and to see a way through that. You know, if I was to carry a heavy attitude into the water about something, whether it be to do on land, which I can do, you know—I know some things might go on the land, and I might carry it in the water. I'm not saying I'm perfect at sort of keeping it all on land, but I try to keep it light.
And I think that keeping that attitude light and keeping it open, not paddling out and expecting to get all the waves, not paddling out to expect to be in the perfect position all the time, but just observing myself and being in the lineup, talking to people, connecting with people in the lineup and enjoying that too—that part of surfing, which is pretty nice.
There's a lot of good people around who enjoy surfing, and I love seeing other people's joy in their face, you know, seeing them enjoy a wave. And even when I'm on the wave too, like I like being on the wave with people. People don't like that sometimes, but I think that's fun.
It's one of the cool things about surfing. When someone accepts you on the wave and you're riding together and everyone's stoked, it's one of the great feelings in surfing—to share a wave.
You know, it's gotta be safe, but I think that's one thing that I liked about what I like to bring in my surfing—something that's not too attached to, you know, ownership, you know, of something that nature's producing. It's an energy. It's coming and going. Why get so hung up about it?
You know, like, so try to keep it light and enjoyable.
Michael Frampton
So you don't mind if I drop in?
Tom Carroll
Mike, you're welcome on the wave any day. It's always so funny actually. When I actually say someone here can drop in on me any day, people just go, whoa.
Some people just go, "I'll never do that. I'll never do that." It's just—it's really funny.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So you mentioned lightness. Obviously, agility kind of feels light. But what about your physical body? Are you the same weight as you were 10 years ago?
Tom Carroll
Yeah, so when I was competing, I was about 64 kilograms, 65 kilograms. So today I'm 68 kilograms. I don't do half as much surfing as what I used to do as far as like the amount of energy output that I put out.
So I'm probably putting on a little bit of weight.
Michael Frampton
That's not much though.
Tom Carroll
No, three kilos, and that can disappear in a couple of days if I did a whole load of stuff. But I think keeping in the action, going surfing, trying to keep it daily—that sort of stuff is really important to keep it light.
Doing some other kind of form of training the body, which has that getting up off the ground—like working off the ground, lying down, getting up, kind of like burpee stuff, things like that, yoga, burpees, things where we're kind of mimicking that getting up off the ground from a lying position is really good for surfing, I think.
What I heard actually—I only heard it, I think it must have been about five years ago—the American Insurance Association had to get a real gauge on how to measure someone's lifespan from this point now.
So how do we test that? And they came up with this, which made a lot of sense to me. And when I heard about it, I went, ooh, because they said, now we've got a very close—we can get a really close idea of how long a person's gonna live by how quick they get up off the ground from a lying down position to a standing position.
Surfing's a good one because if we say surfing, that's prone-to-stand-up surfing, not just stand-up paddle surfing. It all sort of fell into place, because I've been doing my school reunion classes for years, and every time we go to these school reunions, all the guys that I went to school with, I still surf with. They're all quite together physically, and we go to these school reunions, and we see some people, and we go, "What the hell has happened to you?"
You know, like, "You've been in front of a computer?" Non-surfers who haven't had to get up from a prone position to a stand-up position. And if you do it regularly as a surfer, we're in good stead, because how much you've gotta use your body when you stand up on a wave quick. It's like, we work the core straight away, it's all timing, and so if we can work on that sort of stuff...
Michael Frampton
So simple. Just keep surfing.
Tom Carroll
So simple. Keep surfing, paddle out, catch a wave, paddle back out, catch a wave. And maybe mix it in with some other exercise that sort of complements it, like swimming is a really good one. Cardio fitness, workout going, and then a bit of agility work.
And if you want to see some big waves, you can just throw around a few weights and some bodyweight workout and work on the core.
Michael Frampton
What about nutrition? Is that something you've looked into much?
Tom Carroll
Yeah, well, okay, so back in the 80s, it was a training partner and a guy that I used to surf the tour with, Mike Kneebling. I'll never forget this moment. It was in Hawaii in 1985, and 1984, 85 winter. We're staying in this house in Hawaii at Log Cabins, and he pulls out this book, New Dimensions in Health. I'll never forget it because I've still got it, and it was about nutrition. And he goes, "I've just got this book on nutrition." I'm going, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Yeah, look, it makes so much sense. We've gotta work on our nutrition. It's what we put in." You know, I've gone, "Yeah, you're on the money. That's fantastic," you know. I really liked it, the whole idea. I go, "Wow, that's a great idea. It makes so much sense. I know what I'm putting in myself."
I never liked drinking Coca-Cola. I never—I mean, I was a bit of a sugar freak. I'd probably eat a little bit too much sugar, but I couldn't. Certain things I couldn't put in my stomach and then go surfing, and I didn't feel good. And when I was training, I liked eating certain foods. I noticed myself gravitating towards good protein sources and stuff.
Anyway, but I didn't know that then. I just didn't know. I was just this kid, really, sort of blundering around, just eating whatever I could. But my brother actually initially sort of started, you know—like he was—he taught me how to cook a bit. But then on that trip to Hawaii, Mike started looking at nutrition and what it meant for us as athletes and what we could do to actually improve ourselves and so on. And the fact that he had this thick book about it was like, wow, here we got this book, you know? And let's have a look at it. What are they saying?
And we started eating things like buckwheat and, you know, like steaming vegetables and just eating simply, using Miso. And I used to get this black ginseng paste, Korean red ginseng, and I used to have loads of that, you know, because I heard about its properties, its ability to sort of help the body oxygenate and the blood oxygenate. So I was into that. We used to get brewer's yeast, you know, like put that and mix it in with water before competitions.
So we started to look at doing fasting, juice fasting, three-day juice fasts, vegetable juice fasts only, searching out organic sources of food. And that was back in 86, 87. Cooking food along the tour, not going out too much at all, and then just sourcing food off the markets, local markets. Some places were really hard. Places were hard. That's what we were looking for.
In training times, I would really focus on it. So when I'm back here in Australia and I have a couple of months of training on the off-season, we'd focus on diet and I'd cut out sugar. I'd do all sorts of things, which was really hard. I remember that being really challenging, and I felt good. I felt light, especially after doing juice fasting, and I did grape fasting, using grapes. Three days was my max. I wouldn't go out further than three days, but some people would push it out to a week, you know. I think Mike did a week grape fast.
Mike always was trying to sort of strip his fat off. I didn't need to lose any weight. I was naturally set out to fast metabolism. But I did notice the clarity after doing it, and my body just soaking up the nutrition after a juice fast.
Michael Frampton
Is nutrition something you're still learning about?
Tom Carroll
Recently, in the last couple of years, I started working with a nutritional cleanse program with my partner, Mary. She and I have found this amazing system of nutritional cleansing, which is really—we've been able to start to coach people through this program and have had some of the most amazing results. I think people have had nothing to do with their diet. They didn't have any awareness of what they were putting into their mouth and the effects of the kind of food that they were putting into their mouth and where they were emotionally around that too.
When we started to work with people and work with the system and getting the results myself and then sharing it, it's been really amazing watching people's lives turn around as a result of using this system. And it basically just guides us towards just making better choices in our diet. Basically, go for a kind of...
Well, I was talking to Kelly Slater a few years back. We were sharing some stuff around nutrition at the time, and I'll never forget him saying that he'd just been reading up, and what he found was that there was an equation, which I never forget when he said it because the penny really dropped a bit for me. If you put 75% high-end nutrition into your body, good whole food diet with really nutrient-rich food, there'd be 25% left. If that remaining 25% were not so high in nutrition food, and some maybe even very like nil food with no nutrition, the very little bits of nutrition left in that food, the body would recognize it as good nutrition, and it'd take it up and discard the rest.
Whereas if you flip that equation around, which is quite common today—that 75% of the diet, what we put in our mouth is very low nutrition food and dead food and nil food—and we try to make up for the remaining 25% by putting really good high-end nutrition in there, the body's struggling so much with putting that 75% bad stuff in that 25% goes unrecognized.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it doesn't know what to do with it. Doesn't know.
Tom Carroll
What to do with it. So I really like that. I go, "Wow, that made a lot of sense to me." And it kind of relaxed the whole idea around, do I have to be 100%? Do I have to go all the way? I turned into a psychopath, which I never liked the idea of. But I did like the idea of looking at nutrition, and I knew that my body enjoyed good food, and I got the results, and it bears out in my surfing. It bears out in the water and my ability to recover from good surfs.
Michael Frampton
And your longevity as well, obviously. Yeah. So there's that 80-20 rule that comes into play again. We hear it a lot. Nutrition, it's really important. Yeah. So 75-25, 80 similar, yeah.
Tom Carroll
80-20. 80-20 is good. Really.
Michael Frampton
So you don't have to be strict with your diet all the time because then, Saturday night, you're like, no, you can't go out with your friends then. But if you can be really good, then you assimilate a lot more.
So tell us more about—you’re working one-on-one with people with nutrition? Yeah. Excellent. And people that are interested in working with yourself and learning more about it, how can they get ahold of you?
Tom Carroll
Well, what they can do is they can email myself at info—I-N-F-O—at TomCarrollPaddleSurf. That's T-O-M, Carroll is C-A-R-R-O-L-L, PaddleSurf. There's TomCarrollPaddleSurf.com. So you can contact me through that, and you can learn more about this nutritional cleanse. And so we're looking at nutritionally supporting a cleansing of the system through a 30-day process. And it's pretty cool watching people, their light come on.
Michael Frampton
Your nutrition has a huge effect on your health and your performance in every part of your life.
Tom Carroll
Especially if you're carrying extra weight. I mean, there's nothing worse than not being able to move swiftly on the wave and not being able to take full advantage of conditions when they're good.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and it doesn't take much either. Only five kilos of body fat is slowing you down a lot.
Tom Carroll
I was up to 75 kilograms for a bit. I didn't really sort of take notice of it. I remember weighing myself, and I'm like, "Whoa, 75 kilograms." That's the heaviest I've ever been. And that was probably about six years ago. And at that time, I wasn't moving as well on the wave. I wasn't moving around the lineup as well. I was a bit more tired.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so I'll put a link to that email address in the show notes as well. So people that are listening in can just jump back on their computer and go back to the show notes and find that. And we're running out of time, but before we go, I want to ask you a quick four questions—your favorite four. What's your favorite board?
Tom Carroll
At this moment? Wow. Gosh, I've got so many surfboards and so many different types of conditions. What I'm really enjoying at the moment—I've got a board from Max Stewart. He does Isometry Surfboards. It's a little Cali quad. He calls them a Cali quad. It's a little quad. It's only five foot five, a little swallowtail quad. For these little conditions we have at the moment, the board's really fun to surf.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Okay, Isometry Cali quad. Favorite all-time surf vid, surf movie?
Tom Carroll
Favorite all-time surf movie. Good question. I haven't watched one for a while.
Michael Frampton
Did one stand out? Did you used to watch any particular surfer or surf movie back when you were...?
Tom Carroll
When I was a kid, we didn't get to watch movies over and over because they were just movies. There was no such thing as videos and stuff. But I remember we were going to watch Free Ride, the movie Free Ride at the Sydney Opera House, and just, you know, like coming back to tell my dad how much he had to go and see it just to see what we loved, you know? And Free Ride had a huge impression on me.
You know, Mark Richards in a barrel with Shaun Tomson at Backdoor. And, you know, just Hawaii, you know—Shaun Tomson getting really deep barrels and sort of redefining tube riding. And that whole time, that's what they call the "busting down the door" on the North Shore. And that next winter, I went to my first winter on the North Shore in 1978.
So 77 it was filmed. I was 16. I absorbed that movie really right into my DNA watching those guys—Shaun Tomson surf backside pipeline. And Shaun Tomson was a real star in that movie, and it kind of really—he really affected me from that point.
Michael Frampton
Favorite surfer?
Tom Carroll
My favorite surfer. Yeah. Gosh, it's tricky, I think. I just—I’ve always loved watching Kelly surf. He's been a fantastic surfer to watch evolve. And as a surfer, like just his routine on the wave and the way he kind of views the wave. And I love watching that.
You know, I really love watching that. It's been really inspirational for me. That said, there's some—I'm really impressed by a lot of surfers, you know.
Michael Frampton
Who's your favorite goofy footer?
Tom Carroll
Favorite goofy? Wow. I love the way the Hobgoods surf, like, you know, like CJ and Damien. I love watching those guys surf. I love watching Luke Egan surf, you know. He's incredible.
Michael Frampton
Favorite pre-surf song or album?
Tom Carroll
Wow. Can't say I've got a favorite. Like, I listen to all kinds of different music, like from, you know, like classical music to kind of old music, like some of the—like I've been listening to Chopin and Leonard Cohen and like Nick Cave and all this kind of mixture of music.
Just recently, my daughter Grace has been turning me on to what's Interstellar, the soundtrack to Interstellar, which has got some real heavy thickness to it. Emotional kind of power. That sort of stuff really kind of gets me moving.
Yeah. Yeah. There's a band called The Mammals, the Australian band. I've been listening to them a little bit, and they've kind of got a really nice sort of fluid sound. That sort of stuff can get me in the zone.
Michael Frampton
You see a lot of surfers nowadays with the headphones on just before a heat. I always wonder what they listen to.
Tom Carroll
Yeah. Very personal.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Isn't it? It's a very personal thing.
Tom Carroll
Yeah. The music. But definitely there's something about the rhythm of the wave, the rhythm of the wind, the conditions, Mother Nature, and sound.
So there's some sort of, you know, like vibration that needs to be tapped into there. So if we're out of whack with that vibration, I'm kind of like going to blow every wave, or we get pinned on the sandbar, or can't figure out why we're not kind of making the waves.
You know, get out of whack with everything.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. I use music all the time. Sometimes, like if I'm too excited, surfing and frothing, I'll put on something really calming, like some new age music to help me calm down. Because I think sometimes when you're too frothing, you're too energetic, you make mistakes as well.
Tom Carroll
For sure. Absolutely.
Michael Frampton
And then when I'm feeling a bit low, like, it's only a two-foot slope, I'll put something high energy on to get me moving. Get my nervous system ramped up.
Yeah. Music is awesome. Okay, Tom. Well, thank you so much for the interview. Maybe we could even do a big wave interview, maybe heading into winter later. We talked about small waves because it's summer here in Australia.
Tom Carroll
On next year.
Michael Frampton
We could talk about big waves later on. Cool. Thank you.
Michael Frampton
Thanks for tuning in to the Surf Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep surfing.
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.