83 Dr. Michael Gervais - High Performance Psychologist
Have you ever felt stuck in your surfing—even though you’ve trained, bought better boards, or taken surf trips—only to realize something deeper might be holding you back?
In this powerful return conversation, Dr. Michael Gervais—renowned high-performance psychologist—joins host Michael Frampton to explore the real reason recreational surfers plateau: not technique or equipment, but often unresolved mental and relational dynamics. This episode bridges the gap between sports psychology, therapy, and surfing as a tool for personal growth.
Learn the difference between sports psychology and psychotherapy—and how each can improve your surfing
Discover how unresolved relationship patterns affect your performance and presence in the water
Hear why the relationship between client and coach/therapist is more powerful than any single tool or technique
Tune in now to rethink your relationship with surfing—and uncover what might really be holding you back from progress and peace in the water.
Michael Gervais is a high performance psychologist and host of the Finding Mastery Podcast. Finding Mastery Website
My first interview with Gervais: Episode 20 - https://surfmastery.com/podcast/020-michael-gervais
Key Points
Understanding the differences and similarities between sports psychology and psychotherapy.
Exploring the concept of thriving in sports psychology versus suffering in psychotherapy.
Discussing the gray line between clinical issues and performance-related anxiety in athletes.
Highlighting the importance of the relationship between coach and athlete or therapist and client.
Emphasizing the distinction between professional relationships and friendships in coaching.
Discussing the benefits of psychotherapy in enhancing surfing performance and enjoyment.
Examining the role of empathy and tactical empathy in coaching and relationships.
Identifying three common traits among high performers: clarity of purpose, commitment to honesty, and recognition of teamwork.
Exploring the impact of psychotherapy on various life domains, including work and hobbies.
Discussing the upcoming book by Dr. Michael Gervais on the fear of people's opinions as a constrictor for human potential.
Outline
Introduction and Background
Dr. Michael Gervais is a high-performance psychologist and host of the Finding Mastery podcast.
Michael, the interviewer, mentioned that both Finding Mastery and Surf Mastery podcasts were relatively new when they first met in 2017.
Michael shared that his podcast is a side project, releasing episodes about twice a month, and it has been beneficial for his work as a life coach and therapist.
Michael discussed the benefits of his podcast, including interviewing interesting people and attracting clients who are open to exploring their relationships and personal growth.
Differences and Similarities Between Sports Psychology and Psychotherapy
Dr. Michael Gervais explained that sports psychology is a relatively new field, focusing on people who are thriving and seeking to excel in their sports or performance domains.
Psychotherapy, on the other hand, deals with helping individuals who are suffering or struggling, using various therapeutic approaches to alleviate their distress.
Dr. Gervais highlighted that while sports psychology primarily targets individuals who are already doing well and want to improve, psychotherapy addresses those experiencing dysfunction and mental disorders.
He also mentioned that sports psychology uses similar therapeutic techniques but with a focus on enhancing performance and flourishing in specific domains.
Dr. Gervais emphasized that the relationship between the client and practitioner is crucial in both fields, with a significant portion of the positive outcomes attributed to the therapeutic relationship.
Dealing with Personal Issues in Recreational Athletes
Michael discussed a scenario where a recreational athlete is experiencing personal issues that affect their ability to enjoy their sport.
Dr. Gervais explained that in such cases, it is essential to address the personal issues first, as they may hinder the athlete's performance and enjoyment.
He suggested using the sport as a tool to practice psychological skills that can help the athlete become more grounded and present, which can then transfer to other areas of life.
However, if the personal issues are severe and pervasive, it may be more appropriate to focus on psychotherapy to address the underlying problems before returning to sports psychology.
The Importance of the Therapeutic Relationship
Dr. Michael Gervais emphasized the critical role of the therapeutic relationship in the success of therapy and coaching.
He cited research suggesting that a significant portion of the positive outcomes in therapy is due to the relationship between the client and practitioner, rather than specific techniques or interventions.
Dr. Gervais explained that a good therapist maintains a one-way relationship, focusing solely on the client's needs and well-being, without seeking personal gain.
He also discussed the concept of 'above the line' and 'below the line' coaching, where 'above the line' coaches are those who positively impact their clients' lives, while 'below the line' coaches leave a negative impression.
Narcissism in High Performers
Dr. Michael Gervais discussed the prevalence of narcissistic tendencies in high-performance environments, such as professional sports.
He estimated that around seven out of ten individuals in the NFL may exhibit narcissistic personality tendencies, which can be problematic in team settings.
Dr. Gervais explained that true narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is characterized by a deep inability to understand the experiences of others and a manipulative focus on self-benefit.
He noted that individuals with NPD may not benefit from psychological skills training aimed at enhancing performance, as they often perform well when the focus is on them.
Ubiquitous Traits of High Performers
Dr. Michael Gervais identified three common traits among high performers: lack of explicit goals, a deep commitment to honesty, and recognition of the importance of teamwork.
He explained that high performers often do not set specific goals but are deeply obsessed with what matters to them, which drives their performance.
Dr. Gervais emphasized the importance of honesty in high-performance environments, where mistakes can be costly, and there is a need for a radical commitment to truth.
He also highlighted that high performers recognize the value of teamwork and collaboration, despite the common image of the 'lone wolf' at the top.
The Impact of Psychotherapy on Recreational Activities
Michael discussed the potential impact of psychotherapy on recreational activities like surfing, suggesting that addressing personal issues can enhance enjoyment and performance in these activities.
Dr. Gervais agreed that traditional psychotherapy techniques can have a generative effect on various domains of life, including work and hobbies.
He mentioned that uncovering personal issues in therapy can lead to improvements in multiple areas, such as relationships and recreational activities.
Dr. Michael Gervais' Work and Projects
Dr. Michael Gervais shared information about his website, Finding Mastery.net, which serves as a hub for his work and resources.
He mentioned the Finding Mastery podcast, which features discussions on the psychology of excellence and flourishing.
Dr. Gervais also discussed his work with businesses, including Microsoft, to help them implement best practices in psychology for achieving their missions.
He announced an upcoming book, submitted to Harvard Business Review, focusing on the fear of people's opinions as a constrictor for human potential.
Transcription
Dr. Michael Gervais
Not everybody needs psychology, but psychology is amazing. The skills embedded in it and the path of having a process to discover more about who you are and who you want to be, and then having a partner, a true teammate, whether it's a licensed psychologist or life coach or whatever, like in it with you.
Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. That was a quote from today's return guest, Dr. Michael Gervais. He is a high-performance psychologist and host of the Finding Mastery podcast. He was a guest back in 2017 where we dived into the sports psychology. Today's episode is a deep yet holistic dive into some of the principles that are a bit more applicable to the average athlete. Links to Michael Gervais' work and podcasts and everything we discuss in the show notes. And without further ado, I give you my conversation with Dr. Michael Gervais. You know what? You remember, 2017.
Dr. Michael Gervais
That's crazy?
Michael Frampton
That's, yeah, back when Finding Mastery and Surf Mastery were both still...
Dr. Michael Gervais
Wild.
Michael Frampton
Kind of new. Podcasting itself was kind of new back then.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Wow. Yeah. And look what you've done. It's awesome to see. I love listening to your stuff.
Michael Frampton
Excellent. Yeah, and I've been following yours. I mean, I can't keep up with every episode you do. You've been smashing them out.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah. It's a bit of a machine, isn't it? You know, like every week it's a bit of a machine. It sure is. Yeah. How, what's your cadence?
Michael Frampton
Mike, me, I'm doing maybe twice a month, sometimes once a month. It depends. Yeah.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Cool. It's still pretty much a side project for me, you know?
Dr. Michael Gervais
Very cool, man. It's working. I like it. I like the vibe. Is it working for business for you or is it more fun? Is it for sponsorship ads? How is it benefiting you?
Michael Frampton
It benefits me, first of all, selfishly, because I get to interview interesting people and have my questions answered. But it just turns out, you know, people are very similar and they want answers to the same questions. It works well. I guess it's like the top of a funnel. Do you know what I mean? I'm actually working now as a life coach-slash-therapist. So it's funneling some clients that way, some surfers that are a bit more open-minded and the surfers that start to realize that, well, your surfing's great but my relationships in my life are more important. And what I'm finding is that if you can sort your relationships out, it's so much easier to be present when you are surfing. And that segues into the question I wanted to ask you, which is, what's the difference or what are the similarities and differences between sports psychology and psychotherapy?
Dr. Michael Gervais
Okay, cool question, because let's just pull way back for a minute. And the history of psychology has been around for a couple hundred years. And it's a new science. Sports psychology is really new. It's like only 60 years old. So when we just look at the... the headwinds that both have. A more substantial body of evidence and work and research in traditional therapy or in traditional psychology. Now, to answer your question more narrowly, psychotherapy versus sports psychology. So psychotherapy typically looks at, there's a self-discovery process and a set of tools, and the self-discovery process is, there's a whole handful of ways that we can go about it. And there are best practices like cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, mindfulness and acceptance commitment, like there's a handful of best practices that we can go and use to employ to help somebody in their self-discovery process and have a set of tools. Traditionally, psychotherapy is about flourishing and, you know, working from a place where somebody is suffering or struggling and helping them have a baseline of success, where they're no longer struggling and suffering. And maybe they're kind of flirting with this idea of thriving in life. Okay. Sports psychology, on the other side, is there's two main approaches in sports psychology. So one comes out of the discipline of psychology and the other comes out of the discipline of kinesiology or exercise science. And so let's compare apples to apples first. So the psychology discipline of sports psychology uses many of those same best practices. CBT, DBT, ACT, MAC, like there's a whole set of best practices that have been tested and they hold up in the laboratory, they get anecdotal great results—results for people that employ those practices. There is a self-discovery process involved in sports psychology, and there is an over-rotation to training. So there's considered five basic skills in sports psychology or in mental training. And there tends to be a little bit more of a weighted approach towards the training of the mind, the working from the inside out, for a very specific reason. And it's flourishing plus thriving. So sometimes we work with folks that are struggling or suffering. And let me actually pull back one more layer to oversimplify. This beautiful population of people that we have, there's three categories, you know, that we tend to think about—suffering, struggling, and thriving. Sports psychology is primarily for people that are thriving in life. And it's the study of people that are thriving in sports. And so, yeah. The people that we are, that are on the specific gaze of the focus in sports psychology, are those that are kickin’ ass, like they're doing great. They have demonstrated a sense of excellence in their life. And then the ones I'm most interested in are the ones that have demonstrated excellence, or the ones I'm most interested in studying are the ones that have demonstrated excellence in life and excellence in sport. So there is a full flourishing that's taking place, where traditional psychotherapy has studied dysfunction and suffering and mental disorders. Now, that does not mean in sports psychology there's not mental disorders. It's just that a different 2% difference as we push off the dock, right? It's like thinking about the suffering of the person and the disordered way of using their mind and working with the outside world, as opposed to what does it mean to be your best? What are the skills that we can deploy to help you be better or more yourself in high-pressure to high-stakes exacting environments—from a performance standpoint and more groundedly from a being standpoint. So now I'm going to take all of that information and then kind of snap it down to a sentence here. Psychotherapy is really about the study of the dysfunction and the suffering of a human experience and helping them work through that suffering using best practices to do so. The science and the art of sports psychology is studying people who are thriving in life and using a set of best practices to help others who aspirationally want to thrive—to approach that specifically in a sport domain or other performance domain. So I hope that helps.
Michael Frampton
Definitely. Let me see if I can reword it, see if I grasped what you said. So, in terms of sports psychology, would you say it's for those who are specifically... or perceptually suffering within their sport? So then the psychology is about helping them to thrive within their sport or craft.
Dr. Michael Gervais
No, I would not. I would not say that. I would say that the study of sports psychology is about people that are thriving, and it's a deep understanding about how that comes to fruition. And then people that are interested in sports psychology tend to be people who know what that feels like. They are either already thriving, or they are suffering or struggling, but it tends to be a group that is competitively wanting to be their very best. And they say at the same time, look, I can get better at my relationships, I can get better at A, B, and C parts of my life, and I can, you know, use those same practices in sport. So I would say, you know, I think that's a great question. From a horseshoe throwing contest or approach is that sports psychology is primarily focused on people that are doing pretty damn well in their life and they want to do better. That does not mean that people in sport and in high-performing environments are not suffering or struggling. That is definitely not the case. If we're going to throw a horseshoe, it's more about folks that are thriving and they know what that feels like and they're really close to sustaining that thriving, or they might be struggling in some kind of way. And they're like, listen, you know, I don't know. People got better around me and I'm kind of struggling with that. And I want to be my very best. And I feel like I've been kind of knocked sideways a little bit.
Michael Frampton
So they're looking for more consistency of their highest level.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. We've taken a little, a pivot here because initially, I started off talking about the science behind both. And now we're talking about the people interested in both. And I think that—I think it's important to be very clear that independent of craft, independent of industry, independent of walk of life... I'll use myself. There are moments in my life, there are times in my life when I'm thriving. There's times in my life when I'm struggling and there's times in my life when I'm suffering. And so just because you are great at what you do, or just because you're in a certain industry, does not mean that you escape those three experiences in life. The person that's attracted to sports psychology in particular, or high performance or performance psychology, is somebody who's attracted to the science of how do the best in the world—how do people who are deeply flourishing—work? That is who's primarily attracted to the discipline. Okay. And that tends to be a lot of people in sport, naturally. That's why it rose, sprung from that industry. People that are attracted to psychotherapy are more interested in like, okay, how do I find a sense of flourishing? It's not about performance. Where sports psychology is flourishing plus performance, and psychotherapy is more about a wellbeing and a flourishing. And, you know, there's a secondary approach for some psychotherapists that are like, hey, you can have it all too. You can kick ass in what you're doing as well as, you know, have a deep-seated sense of flourishing in life. So I hope that maybe that clears it up a little bit.
Michael Frampton
Definitely, but I have more questions. Let's say someone is interested. They're not a professional athlete, but they want to use surfing as an obvious example. They want to become a better surfer, but they're finding it's their mind and their talent, thoughts that are getting in the way. They can't be as present as they used to be when surfing was new and fresh. They come to you, let's say. But then pretty quickly you realize, well, you actually don't have the basics of your life worked out. Do you then become a psychotherapist or do you refer them to a psychotherapist? What happens in that situation?
Dr. Michael Gervais
That's cool. So my training is a PhD in psychology. And this is in the United States. So undergrad in psychology, Master's degree in sports science, and then PhD in psychology, licensed as a psychologist with a specialization in sport and performance and a subspecialty, if there was such a thing, in consequential environments. So then, no, the arc that I have for training can allow me to play on both the psychotherapy side and the psychology of excellence side. So—uniquely, I have that set of training and experiences. Now, if I—if some of my colleagues that are trained in one discipline or the other—the conversation often is about, okay, where is that invisible line? Where is that gray line between life and performance? You know, like, is my pre-anxiety jitters before a contest or before, you know, that imaginary line between play and seriousness when it's double overhead—at least that's my imaginary line—and I'm a little too activated, is that, does that stay down the lane in sport, or does that migrate? And do I find that I'm a little anxious in other parts of my life as well? And then there's another invisible line, which is the difference between clinical anxiety, which is like, I am anxious just about everywhere I go. I'm crawling and scratching in my own skin. I'm excessively worrying about how things could go wrong. And I find myself irritated, agitated, maybe even isolated. I'm frustrated. You know, that's typically how—there's a pattern recognition between how men and women tend to do anxiety. Agitation and frustration is a little bit more common for men. All that being said is we're talking now about a clinical issue. And it's pervasive everywhere somebody goes. And so that would be—yes, that's a refer to a psychologist to be able to manage that bit. And so I think it's tough for all of us to know where that line shows up. And so I love the question because I think there is a science to know what is appropriate to refer out. And there's a gray line in there as well. So it's not simple.
Michael Frampton
I'd like to dig in a little bit more to the gray line because, okay, let's say someone's pathology or their neuroses is not necessarily clinical.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
And maybe you've been working with them for a while and things are going great, then all of a sudden, their wife decides to leave them. All right. And then they've—they're not, let's say they're not very narcissistic and they don't have the ability to separate their craft and their sport from their relationships, and they're finding that the dysfunction of their relationships is taking them away from the ability to be present within their sport or craft. Is that a common scenario? Is that something that you deal with?
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah. Is this a professional athlete or is this a recreational athlete?
Michael Frampton
Let's keep it recreational for target for the listeners' sake. Yeah, I mean, I'll play back kind of how I'm hearing it is that recreation athlete, loves surfing, it's something that he or she spends a lot of time doing, and they're going through some life stuff and it's pretty heavy, and they don't find that they—they find they're experiencing the joy in surfing when they're surfing. And so now that—and it's not like life is over if they're not making heats or, you know, it's not, their income isn't dependent on it, their livelihood is not dependent on it. It's a sense of freedom and joy and fun and dah, and they're not finding it. Yeah. Like, so it's an interesting approach that you could have, or one could have, which is, okay, well, let's stay talking about sports, and let's just use the ocean and your relationship with surfing as a way to practice some skills that are going to help you be more grounded, help you be more present, help you let go and move on to the next unfolding moment. Because that'll serve you well in life. And I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling, but let's stay down this lane of like, let's play with some skills in the ocean or some psychological skills, but let's just keep it in the arena of the ocean. Yeah. And I think that you're going to get a nice glow, right, from the transferability from the skills that you're using into life. That being said, for some people, that would be like a total miss. And they're like, look, I'm struggling. Like, I'm a mess. I'm such a mess. I'm such a mess. I want to go out and surf and have a good time. But when I'm there, I'm just thinking about all the parts of my life that are falling apart. You. And then, so... and you say, okay, well, you know, let's stay with the ocean, let's talk about some sports-like skills relative to surfing. They're like, I don't—I don't care enough. Like, I'm drinking too much. I'm showing up to work late. I'm not making the calls I need to call. I just don't have a fire and a zest, and I'm kind of a mess. Well, then it would be for that person, it's like, now it's more about the life skills part of it. Or the psychotherapy bit might be more appropriate. I don't know. All that being said is, not everybody needs psychology. But psychology is amazing. It's like... the skills embedded in it and the path of having a process to discover more about who you are and who you want to be. And then having a partner, a true teammate, whether it's a licensed psychologist or life coach or whatever, like in it with you to say, tell me more. How does that work? Have you had anything like this in the past where you've figured it out? How did that go? This is brand new? Okay. How do you think that this is going to play out in the next three months? How do you want it to go? What are some of the skills? And what are some of the resources that we're going to need to have in place here? Internal resources and external resources to be able to navigate this challenge. So it's like—and by the way, just—some of what I did is motivational interviewing just there. And so it's a great technique that is not reserved only for licensed therapists, but motivational interviewing is a very powerful way to learn more about what is happening underneath the surface and to help the person be more attuned to this radical amount of micro-decisions that they've made that things have worked out and they just might not be totally available to it. So I work from a place, Michael, just really quickly, is that everything you need, somebody else needs, it's in them. It's in there. And my job is to help uncover it, unlock it, you know, maybe dust it off, remind them in some respects, hold it up in the light. But they don't need us to give advice. They don't need us to tell them what to do or not to do. They don't need us to be a hero. What they're craving more than anything—it's like 80-some percent, 87 is the number that one of the recent researchers that I read—of all change that happens in the helping profession is based on the relationship. Not the scientific best practices, not the great question, not the unlock that happens. It's the relationships.
Michael Frampton
The relationship between the client and the practitioner?
Dr. Michael Gervais
That's it. Yeah. It's a huge—even if that 87% is outrageous, imagine if it's as large as 50%. 50% of everything that happens, that the person feels wonderful about themselves and feels strong again—it's because of the relationship itself. Not the technique, not the training, not the process of learning more, but just that. Just that holding of space where one person is seeing what is true for the other person. That shit’s pretty.
Michael Frampton
Rad. That's really interesting. Is that because it's kind of like... like if you come to a therapist or a licensed marriage practitioner, whatever, because your relationship isn't doing well, then it's... this sounds like what you're saying is that that's the therapist's job—to have a good relationship so that you're kind of actually just learning on the job. This is how you relate.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah, this is a good relationship. I'm sorry, a good therapist does that. You know, like when I was a young—when I was a young boy—I did not quite understand that, you know, I wanted to have a great plan and a program and dah. And, you know, there's definitely a place for that, but so much happens just based on the relationship between the two. So we call it in psychology, we call it—stay in the room. So when somebody is working through something, stay in the room, be in the relationship with them. Use yourself sometimes as a vehicle.
Michael Frampton
Is it hard not to cross the boundary there? From being a clinician and a friend. Yeah, yes and no. I think that friends have a two-way relationship. And a friend might go hang out and have a cup of tea and it's casual. And they might talk about things. Let's say you and I, right. Like grab a beer, glass of tea or dinner, or like there's something, or we're just hanging out like, you know, at someone's house or whatever it might be. But it's two ways. I'm interested in your life. You're interested in my life. And if there's some sort of balance, and it feels generative, you know, like we're both giving to each other, then the relationship ensues. Okay. That's a friendship. And a great friend is awesome, you know, like because it has that dynamic. In our profession, what we're talking about is that it's one way and one way only. It is. If you're the professional here and I'm coming to work with you, I might say, how you doing? You know, we ask so many questions about me, like, how are you doing? And then it's an art. Do you disclose? Do you entertain that because it deepens the relationship? Or do you say, you know, I appreciate that. Thank you. And then you redirect. You know, or if I say to you, how do you sort that out? Like, have you ever been in a crossroad like this? You know, have you ever almost been divorced and like, how do you deal with that? Now you got a decision to make, don't you? A friend might say, shit. Yeah. I don't, you know, and a therapist might say the same thing, but you're maintaining the role of being there solely for the person. Not for your own needs. And that discipline and that deep commitment to the other person is wildly rare. And that's where I think some amazing things take place. I've asked probably about 10,000 people this question. And I was afforded to be able to do this—enterprise companies, some of the largest companies on the planet over multiple years. And I asked the question, what is a great coach? And so I use this very simple rubric and I say, draw a line on a piece of paper and we call it above the line coaching and below the line coaching. Above the line people and below the line people is where we start. And list three people—their role or their name, up to you—and what made them an above the line person in your life or a coach. And what same for below the line. And then above the line is obviously somebody that, when they left the relationship, like somehow you feel better about you. Like you feel stronger, you feel more dynamic, you feel more whole, you feel like more capable. You just feel better about you. And a below the line is that they stepped on your shoes and left a scuff and they took your shoes after that and threw them back at you and you just feel upset and shitty and like you're just kind of a mess. Right. And I think we all have them. Above the line or below the line. And so I've asked thousands—it's probably somewhere right around 10,000 people when I did it, back of the napkin math. And the majority of people—and I'm talking, I haven't done the actual math on this part—let's call it eight out of ten people say that the criteria to be an above the line person or coach is that they were in it for the person. They were not in it for themselves. So great coaches see the athlete. They are in it for the athlete's benefit. Right. Great friends, yes. They feel like the person that they're attending to feels like they really matter in their lives. So kind of like rule number one: make it about the other person. And that's from a—I'm now talking as a professional, like a psychologist or therapist or coach.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I really like that analogy. I never thought of it in that way... romantic. Good. Yeah. Kind of describes why I think that we've seen such a sharp raise in popularity of Jordan Peterson. Because he's mean?
Dr. Michael Gervais
Certainly... Yeah, keep going. What do you—
Michael Frampton
Well, he certainly... when you watch his content... he just, he seems to care so much about other people. Now, where does that come from? Is it genuine? It's irrelevant because that's the way it comes across. He's there. He cares about society. He cares about the science and how it can affect people. You see him cry in his interviews because he's like, I see people suffering so much and all they need is a simple word of encouragement.
Dr. Michael Gervais
I don't know Jordan Peterson maybe the way you know him, but my experience is that he is an independent thinker. And he has—he values research. And he values systems thinking and metadata to make sense of themes and streams. And then he knows it's not going to be popular. I don't think he's trying to manipulate like, I'm going to try to win over a certain segment of the population. And I think he knows that he is speaking dangerous information. Where there are plenty of people that want to counter-rotate and say, you're the devil. And plenty of people are like, my God, you're speaking the truth to me. That's how I feel. And so I see him as a radical truth-teller. And whether somebody agrees with him or not, he is working from a place where he believes in what he's saying. And so I don't have the experience that you have—that it's so much about the other person. I think it's like, I can see how you get there, but I'm going to study or listen to him in a different way based on your experience of him.
Michael Frampton
He's studied theology and in particular Christianity quite a lot. And he sort of—he makes the connection. He talks about, like, God isn't some bearded man in the sky and it's not some artificial deity that you worship. It's nothing like that. God is the future you who you strive to be. And it just feels like what you're saying is kind of matching that somewhat.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah. I mean, some circles, that is like blasphemy. Right. And so he's saying it. He's saying the thing that he believes. And he is—I don't know, I don't think he's impervious to it—but he's okay taking the scar tissue for it. And there are—I'll tell you an experience. He came up to the Seattle Seahawks, which was the football team I was with for nine years, or nine seasons. And he came up. And the team was like, wow, that was great. Wow, that was really good. And then we put up a picture that he was in the building. It rose to the surface—the level of disdain that we had entertained a person like Jordan at the Seattle Seahawks, that it rose to the level like, my God, what just happened? Do we take this down? Like, we've insulted or we have agitated the thousands of people that are really upset. Like, I thought better of you and I can't believe. And so... So that's when I was like, there's a whole thing here that he's navigating. And, yeah. I mean, hats off to anyone who’s speaking the truth, because people that lead with the truth—there's a saying in special operations: those that lead bleed. And, you know, anyone that's leading with truth has, I think, got an uphill battle in some respects.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I mean, he's... I think he's controversial because—I mean, I'm speaking of his deeper message and that's what I like about him. But he certainly is very opinionated in the political world and is very polarizing in that way as well. But I'm more interested in—I don't care about his opinions on politics, but I think he often uses that to get media attention. He does it on purpose. He's a smart man. But when you start looking at his long-form content and reading his books and all of that stuff is gone and it's all about the deeper message. So yeah, I agree with the whole controversy thing and it's a smart technique, but it certainly is a polarizing one. So let me just kind of slight pivot here. You've been at this for a long time. Surf Mastery is awesome. It's awesome. What are you going to do or what are you doing with the wealth of knowledge that you've gained? Provided a forum for people to share and like, how are you making sense of the information? I’ll share it because like, it's a lot. And I... I wrestle with that myself. We've been—you know, the Finding Mastery podcast has been around a long time as well, as we—you and I have spoken about. So how are you making sense, best, of the information and the wisdom shared?
Michael Frampton
Gosh. Ha. So a lot of this for me is about a self-awareness. And ownership of that and some acceptance, some radical acceptance of who you are and what is. Manning up and taking care of your responsibilities and then just allowing space for you to pursue what you love and your purpose here and just sort of thinking about that, refining that and just trying to get rid of all the noise that's constantly coming at us. And then in regards to surfing. What—you asked me what I would do with the information. I mean, I have an idea for a book. Cool. Because there's so much surfing education out there. And I think in my opinion, Clayton Nienaber, his Ombi work has succinctly summarized it very well in terms of, hey, this is surfing technique. And there’s so many different people coming at that. And then I think of what you've been doing. And I think of what Matt Griggs is doing—basically coming at it from a different angle but very similar. And then... how do I bridge that gap is what I've been thinking. So, like, in regards to this, the question I sort of led with here is—maybe I'll try and answer that question with a little bit of a story. What changed for me—I think, I was just listening to the last interview we did, and one of the questions I was asking you was like, was it okay to love surfing so much and make surfing be so important to my life? And I went through a stage like that. And then as I grew older and had children, I realized, well, actually, you know, it was fun to dive into surfing that deeply when I was younger, but now I have children now. I'm really—I was, you know, began to realize that my relationship with my children and my family members were more important. But I started to notice that if I did dive into surfing too much and those relationships changed, got left behind, then my surfing wasn't fun anyway. So I was actually far more able to enjoy surfing if I spent less time surfing and more time focused on my actual relationships. So it was kind of like a twofold strategy. And when it comes to put this in the context of surfing, I spent a lot of time and money on surf coaches... obviously, this podcast interviewing people. Diving into surfing technique, all of that stuff. You end up spending money on different surfboards and chasing big waves for novelty to try and trigger the flow state or whatever it is. And then my relationship ended up taking a turn for the worst and I dived into—I’d always been studying psychology. It's always been an interest to me. But I was living in Malibu at the time and managed—was able to afford a really good psychotherapist. I had been through a few, but when I found this one psychotherapist who just—all of the psychology that I'd learned, he managed to put it into context of my own life and coached me through. He taught me what a functional relationship was, how to manage it. Once all of that stuff made sense for me, then when I went surfing, I was like... I was like, it's two foot, it's crowded. It doesn't matter, because when I stand up, the other part of my rest of my life is sorted so I can just enjoy the wave. So I was able to be much more present when I was surfing. So I think part of what I want to help people understand is that, yes, sometimes we love surfing so much, and we see a lack of—maybe we see a lack of performance or a frustration and a plateau within our surfing, or even just a minimization of our enjoyment of surfing. Sometimes the immediate reaction is, let's learn more about surfing or let's buy a new surfboard or let's go on a surf trip. But in actual fact, you have to sort out the other stuff in your life so that you can just walk down to your local beach and enjoy surfing for what it is when you first discovered it. It's cool. So for me, it was the psychotherapist that helped me become a—not necessarily a better surfer, although I do think that did happen because I was able to be more present and implement all those techniques and things—but just to enjoy the experience far more and just to have a more of a—just a more functional perspective on surfing as well and just life in general. Like there's a tweet I wrote that summarized it for me, which was: Instead of trying to catch the wave, whereas you feel like you're chasing it or trying to get it, realize that the wave is better off with you on it and it's inviting you to join it. So—and just that simple change in perspective for me, it didn't happen without all of the psychotherapy and learning about relationships.
Dr. Michael Gervais
It is amazing how when we change, everything in our world changes. By definition, right? And when I was in grad school—and I look back, I just had this conversation this morning with a friend—I don't know how I did it. I don't know how I did as much as I did during that phase, but I do remember when I was surfing during that time. I mean, I was burning the candle on both ends, and my friends, they didn't like to surf with me. And they were like, they're calling me la máquina, you know, which is "the machine." And like, they didn't want to surf with me because I was out there and I had to get my waves. And I was like an absolute tool out there looking back, but I didn't have very much time. So I'm going out there, I'm getting my waves. And it was, what a jerk. Really. And so now that I have a 14-year-old son and I go out there, I could care less if I get... like, I'm going to cruise a little bit, but I'm trying to work to help him get a wave. And it's a completely different relationship. And I don't really want to go surf unless he's around, you know? Like... and he doesn't love surfing as much as I do. So I'm not surfing as much because I'm choosing to spend more time with him. And maybe that's blasphemy in the Surf Mastery world, but it's just kind of how it is for me right now.
Michael Frampton
It's certainly not blasphemy. I think it's just... but the thing is, when you're—when you do end up going surfing, you're going to get so much more joy out of just catching one wave. Or you might do that, and then you might go in and he's had enough, and then we've still got 10 more. I'm just going to go and grab a quick wave on my... on whatever soft top. But that one moment where you caught that one wave was preceded by so much more important stuff that you just enjoyed it so much more and you filled that void, I guess. I think surfing is... let me just—I was just going to say, I think—I mean, you're aware of the surf therapy world, right? Surfing is a form of therapy.
Dr. Michael Gervais
That's right.
Michael Frampton
And I think a lot of surfers entered surfing unknowingly for that reason. And then it's—but then once you start to sort of become quite competent, the therapeutic side just isn't there anymore.
Dr. Michael Gervais
A great insight. I think I did too. That's a great insight. It doesn't force you into the zone or the flow. It just becomes something you're good at. And then it just almost becomes an addiction. And then you start buying different surfboards to provide challenge or chasing big waves or... you know what I mean?
Michael Frampton
A hundred.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Percent. Yeah. Yeah. I relate to what you're saying as well. And then there's the other side, which is like—my practical side is like, these wave pools are amazing. That's the practical side. And then my love of nature side is like, this is terrible. You know, like, you know, I'm spending too much money to have, you know, a guaranteed set of waves. And then—and I'm in a concrete pool. Bye. But it's fun because it's like, it's a—you know, you get the repeatable opportunities that normal surfing doesn't offer you. But the whole thing about like getting on a—I don't know—the expedition life or the expedition experience of it, like, you don't really get that anymore if you're thinking about just wave pools. But so, you know, it's an interesting time, I think, for surfing in a lot of ways. And I appreciate that insight. I never had that—that it is so soothing when I think of early days. To be part of, one, the ocean and the salt and the magnesium and the sun and all of that. And then like, the—just the natural fluid experience of it. But then it provides this radical opportunity to get better at something. To apply agency, to apply mental and physical and technical skills in an unfolding, unpredictable environment. Hey, isn’t that life? Doesn’t that sound like life? And so it... I am careful not to get on that like cheesy sort of thing. Like every wave that, you know, it’s the—it’s—everything unfolds and just like a wave and the perfect metaphor, but I understand it. I really understand it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I liken it to golf, whereas going out and playing a nice round of golf, you're in nature, it's challenging. But then just like now we have wave pools, the driving range has always been there where you can go and just focus on your swing.
Dr. Michael Gervais
—
Michael Frampton
So that's what I love about wave pools. That's cool.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah, it's good.
Michael Frampton
It's the driving range. I had a question about something you said earlier, which was when you were sort of pointing out that, you know, it's about the relationship. Fits. But what about... where do you draw the line between—because sometimes I feel, working as a life coach, sometimes I feel like I agree with what you're saying and it's made me realize a lot of the reasons why it's been such an easy transition and why I'm being quite good at this new role. But it's—part of what I do when I'm doing that work is, a lot of—I naturally feel like I need to do a little bit of lecturing and basic psychology education in those sessions as well. Because I feel like... most people, when we're growing up, we're not taught that. How to be in a relationship. Or sometimes we don't even know what a functional relationship is. So I know you did say that, you know, if you focus on the other person and the relationship, then the rest will fall into place. But do you feel that sometimes there's—needs to be a little bit of just baseline education that goes along with it?
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah, I think that this is the art. Is being able to toggle effortlessly between a pad of paper or whiteboard or, you know, hand gestures, and... and then to learning and listening and feeling your way through something. And sometimes holding a standard like, you know, hey Joey, that's not what we talked about. Like, so help me reconcile. Like the last time we left, we, you know, we made some promises about—or some commitments—and like, what happened? You know, so... and as I'm saying that I'm editing to not sound like—that there's a—it’s not a condescending or critical or—it’s not that, but it's like, it's holding the standard as well. And so—and again, there's a personality piece to it as well. That's really important to bring yourself into it. So you're not a... psychodynamics as a practice, as a theory, is very much like take—you are completely removed from the relationship. You know, and that's that image of the old gray-haired person with a pad of paper behind the person laying on the couch, not even making eye contact. That’s the idea, was like, no, it's totally about the person and let's remove this relationship bit because that makes it too complicated. And then it's completely rotated like, no, the relationship is really important. So there's an artistry to be able to move between palettes. And to do that. Yeah. And so I think that where it gets confusing for folks is if—I'll use my life as an example—is if my wife says, hey, I want to run something by you. And I say—and I just automatically kind of go to, let's go into solving mode. And I don't stop for a moment and I say, cool, how do you want me to show up here? You know, she goes, no, I'm looking for like, sounding board. Or she says, no, I just really appreciate—like, I just need to talk this out with you. Right? So I ask up front, how do you want me to show up here? You know, and, you know, if she's at her wits, then she might say, I don't know, you figure it out. But like, you know—but if you ask, I think it's really important that some—they'll tell you, like, you know what? I'm really looking for a tool. Or I just want to hear how it feels when you hear this. Or I just need a sounding board. Whatever. All right. All that being said is, when you're working with an athlete or a person that is trying to sort something out, it's knowing which role you're taking in that moment. Is it about being in it with them, feeling your way through it with them? Or is it, you know, say, okay, hold on. I got a great theory I want to share with you. And I want to show you how we can maybe tweak and adopt this for you and your life. And that might set up some really great practices once you leave here. So that—knowing how to toggle between it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and that's how you show up in... in any relationship, right? Because it's often... it's often the masculine. When the feminine comes to the masculine, the feminine sometimes wants a sounding board and wants to be heard. And sometimes the masculine just wants to instantly offer, well, here's the solution. So many—yeah.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Bad jokes in here. Yeah. I've stepped on all of those landmines in my life. Yes. Yes.
Michael Frampton
I like the way that Chris Voss describes it. You got to have tactical empathy. You need to describe the way the person acts, is feeling, back to them in your own words to the point where they say, yeah, you get me. And only then they'll ask for advice, only after that's happened.
Dr. Michael Gervais
I don't get the tactical piece. Why not just have empathy? Tactical means I'm doing it for another aim. Empathy is like, no, I'm doing it because this is cool. Like, you know, like I'm in it with you and it's like, okay. So—and I'll tell you how a strategy or a tool to be able to do this, but you play back—empathy is like somehow you're conveying to the other person that you understand what it must be like from an emotional, feeling side to be in their experience. That's dope. Like, that's helping you. That's helping them. That's like helping the relationship. And like, just that alone—I don't know why we would do it—tactical. Maybe if we're in an emergency situation or...
Michael Frampton
That's his background. That's just his language. I think what he means is high-level language—empathy—but that's just the term he uses because he's from—he's an FBI negotiator. So...
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah, I would drop tactics. Empathy goes such a long way. Like, is it a tactic? Yeah. Is it at all? Could be. I mean, whatever. I'm not trying to judge or critique. Like that's not a word that resonates for me. When I think of empathy, there's a warmth to it. And so—and in and of itself—it makes a massive difference for people that are experiencing it.
Michael Frampton
If you could describe what a good coach is in one sentence, what would that sentence sound like?
Dr. Michael Gervais
I would say great coaches—they have insight, they collaborate with the other person. So there's a collaborative nature to it. They support and challenge and teach and train. I've thought a lot about it. So that's an unfair question to me. Insight. Calibrate. Support and challenge. Teach and train.
Michael Frampton
I like it. Now, since last time we spoke, you've interviewed people—a lot more people. A lot of people. What are three things you're finding that seem to be ubiquitous for all of those people?
Dr. Michael Gervais
Well, I'll tell you—I'll give you a bit of a narrative and then I'll answer the question to my best abilities. The narrative is that I asked you that question earlier in this conversation because at some point I'm so saturated and overwhelmed and it just—it washes over me. I think some of it, I hope, you know, I'm metabolizing it and practicing some of the insights and pearls of wisdom that people are sharing. And I try to, from each experience, I try to take something and put it right into action, but I am a bit overwhelmed. And I think that many of us can understand that because there's so much information in the world right now. Like, what do we do with it all? One thing that I did is I made a commitment to practice one small thing that I learned. And that's cool. The second thing is I took all of the transcripts and I ran them through a natural language processor, and I and my team—we coded the program of what to look for. And so we wanted to understand: what are the general themes? What are the streams of insight? And what are the applied practices that have come through? And it took a lot of time and effort to do this. And one of the findings we found is that people that I defined as being true masters of craft—they don’t set goals. Totally counterintuitive to what I would have thought, and counterintuitive to what the research of sports psychology would suggest. And so, I just found that to be—I don’t know what to do with that yet. But I think that there’s something important to honor, that they do not talk about setting goals.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's—I can't believe you're saying that, to be honest.
Dr. Michael Gervais
I know. Yeah, I know. That's really interesting, isn't it?
Michael Frampton
But there must be—can we stay there for a second? There must be—there must be something in its place. Like maybe—it makes me instantly think what I mentioned before, which is—you want to imagine a better version of yourself in the future, or maybe an icon to look up to. Do they have that?
Dr. Michael Gervais
What they talked about is designing their life to be—I'm going to take like three principles and condense them into one—is that, you know, it is more about the experience itself than it is about setting goals and objectives. So they design their life for enriched experiences. And it doesn't mean that they're haphazard in the way that they think about their future. It's that they do not talk about nor value, according to what we found from the transcripts, goal setting. And it's almost like that's for other people. Not for them.
Michael Frampton
Do you think it's something that they naturally do? More—they sort of naturally do that without having to explicitly think about or write it down?
Dr. Michael Gervais
That's where like a secondary follow-on study would pay dividends. My intuition is that they are very clear about what they're working on, who they want to be, and what they want to do. They're very clear about it. And it is almost obnoxiously clear, that it crowds out so much of the extraneous noise in their world—including, unfortunately, the goals, interests, aspirations of others. You know, and like, this is where it gets a little dark. And so, if they are not careful—I would say maybe you, me, I don't know—there's an obsessiveness and an unreasonableness that accompanies the way that they think about experiencing and obtaining something later. So it's not that they are goal-less and they're kind of just fluid and hanging around. If the half-percenters are over for dinner—it is—the conversation is mostly going to be about them and the way that they're thinking about the future or the thing that they're working on. And I don't mean that to sound awful. It can be awful. You might not want that person around for a second dinner because they've sucked all the oxygen out. Some are incredibly generative. But you would never be surprised about what they're working on. And their big, lofty, ambitious thing—you would never be surprised. And let me be even more dramatic. Like, let's say Nelson Mandela—you, the two of us, and Nelson Mandela are hanging out. Is there a chance—and let's say it's ten of our other friends—is there a chance that Nelson Mandela is not about it in the conversation? That he's not driving that thing? Now, he happens to be incredibly aware of the human experience. But you take that into a best-in-the-world athlete or best-in-the-world business person or best-in-the-world attorney or fill in the blank—maybe that sensitivity is lacking. So, anyways, I think that there's something in that to pull apart.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I mean... the darkest word that comes up out of what you just said would be narcissism.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah. I mean, it's... narcissism in the world of true high performance—sustainable, like true—is, I think, let's say just the NFL. Okay? So in the NFL, National Football League—I'm going to be provocative here for a minute because I haven't done this study, and I don't think anyone has—but I'm going to say like seven out of ten have narcissistic personality tendencies. That is uncommon for the rest of the world. So if we're walking around, seven out of ten people are not narcissists. And I'm not saying NPD—true narcissistic personality disorder—but they have such an availability of narcissistic tendencies that you're like, Jesus, calm down, dude. You know, like, well, I mean, yeah. So navigating narcissism and navigating neuroticism is part of, you know, the world of high performance.
Michael Frampton
Well, you could say that we all—I mean, everyone has narcissistic tendencies. But if you step into a world where that narcissism is continually rewarded and literally pays your bills and gives you dopamine, then, you know, the brain's going to start doing more of that, right?
Dr. Michael Gervais
A hundred percent. And if you've had that your whole life and been fed that because you've been good since you were 12, it's almost unfair in some respects. But true narcissistic personality disorder is born out of—or springs from—a deep insult from a young age. And that insult is so traumatic, and it's such a fissure in a person, that they have an inability to understand the experience of another person. And it's not that they are so self-consumed, but they just don't—they cannot consume, understand what it's like to be you in the experience. And it's a complete manipulative experience—for their benefit only.
Michael Frampton
Do you think that person has the ability to focus on and not to be affected by their relationships when they step into their craft?
Dr. Michael Gervais
No. No, this thing is massive for them. And, you know, so—criticism, critique is hard for them. The intolerance for somebody else's mistake, the intolerance for their mistake is problematic. Interesting enough, for true NPDs—and they are, as far as we can tell, you know, there's a limitation to what I'm about to say from a research standpoint—but as far as we can tell, NPDs do not benefit from psychological skills training. They don't need it. You have to just turn the lights on. You turn the lights on, they're okay. If it's about them and everyone's looking at them, they're in good shape. So, matter of fact, psychological skills training for the aim of enhancing performance could be problematic. And then, if they're at a place where like, I am sick and tired of being me, I don't like how it feels, I don't feel connected, and they're kind of having that conversation—that desire to change and grow—and you do the work, performance might suffer as well. You know, there's a—there's going to be a dip in there for the most part. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean—and that's something I think, for folks that are wanting to get better, it's important to recognize that when you create any intervention—whether it's physical, technical, or psychological intervention—that there is a predictable dip in performance, immediately and following. But then there is a J-curve. There's a large swing that could happen. And so, you could stay the path without the intervention, and you kind of know what you're going to get, and there'll be a slow decline of skills and abilities over time. Because if you're not getting better, what are we doing when it comes to high-performing environments? But when you make the intervention, there's a dip. And so, you got to kind of have the resolve and the discipline to work through that dip. And timing matters. I was just at the—I was working with the—I don't know if I told you this—but I was with the USA surfing team at Tokyo. So we won our first gold with Carissa Moore. Amazing. The whole team was outrageously good. It was incredible to be on that team. And one of my colleagues calls from track and field and says, "Hey, I gotta run some stuff by you. Unfortunately, some other psychologists thought it was going to be a good idea two weeks prior to the Games to do a radical intervention with somebody." And by the time the person got to the Games, everything unfolded. So it was full crisis mode because an uninformed practitioner decided to do some deep work. And EMDR was the protocol that they chose. And it's great—there's some great evidence on EMDR—but not two weeks before the effing Games. That's not... Now, maybe—I don’t know what—I didn’t work for the person, with the person for a handful of years. So I don’t really know why the therapist made that call, but the person was unraveling at the Games. And so, there was a dip. So you want to be really thoughtful about when we introduce interventions.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's a good point. Can I lead us back to the question I asked a couple of minutes ago, which was: three ubiquitous things that you've learned from high performers? And we—one thing you just pointed out was they don't have explicit goals, and did you merge the other two things in there in what we've just spoken?
Dr. Michael Gervais
No, I haven't. Yeah, not good. Thank you for bringing this back around. The other thing that I think is really important is that—you could do it—I could shorthand and do a one and two. And one is they don't have goals. Two is that they're very clear and deeply obsessed with what matters to them. Right. And so—but that's not where I was going with the second insight. And I think that's one of the things that I think is really important. When you first asked the question, the second insight is that there's a commitment to honesty. Like they, for the most part—independent of the narcissist and the NPD that I just talked about—there's a deep desire to work from the truth, especially people that are in exacting environments where mistakes are costly. That they don't kind of squint and hope that the way that they're preparing and their teammates are preparing are going to be good enough. There is a radical commitment to get to the truth of something. And so that standard is wonderfully inspiring. And it doesn't mean that it's easy. But it's refreshing when people are working from the truth. The third is that—the image of the lone soldier or the lone wolf or the person who is like solo at the top of the mountain—it doesn't hold up. You know, for the most part, people that are exceptional at creating change, and especially change that is industry-shifting or even world-shifting, they recognize that there is no sentiment that they do it alone. Now, it doesn't mean that they don't like the accolades, maybe, that come with it, but there's a deep commitment of honesty and of the value of technology, being part of a team.
Michael Frampton
I like that. Yeah. One other question I wanted to ask you was, I described my connection with the way my surfing experience and what psychotherapy had done for me in that realm. But there doesn't seem to be much science around that? There's no connection. There's not many papers written. Or do you think that all of the papers written on sports psychology encompass that anyway?
Dr. Michael Gervais
Okay, good question. Is that... so what you're applying though is the value of traditional psychotherapy, or best practices there, how they influence other parts of one's life—such as work, such as better experiences in recreation. I don't think I can point to the amount of research that would scratch that itch for you. But there is evidence that when you work from the inside out, that it doesn't just affect one domain of somebody's life—that there is a glow or generative effect in it. So it would not surprise practitioners. However, I don't have—and I'm going to go now search and see if I can find some meta-analyses around that—but I don't think it's clear. That being said is—and it is ridiculous. So, and it takes—like I said—it takes incredible honesty to do this work as well. And when you uncover some stuff about yourself that you're holding back in one domain, it is transferable to so many domains. Including—people come in, it's not uncommon for people, couples therapy, to come in and do some work and there's some issue about sex and, you know, and it's not a bedroom issue. It's a living room issue. It's a car ride issue. And so that's very clear. And so I think you could extrapolate that insight and finding into work and/or hobbies pretty clearly.
Michael Frampton
Touché. Yeah, I like that analogy. Yeah. Okay. Well, Michael, we could go on for hours, but I need to be respectful of your time. I just want to thank you so much for taking the time today. And what's—what is your website? What's the podcast name? Can you point people that want to know more?
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah. Thank you. I just enjoyed the conversation. So I appreciate any—I feel like we could keep rolling as well. So that being said, it's findingmastery.net. It's a hub that you can go and find out some of the stuff we're doing. A couple of fun things that are cool: one is the Finding Mastery podcast, which is awesome. We have built an extraordinary team of people that are helping businesses work from the inside out and to help them understand the best practices of the psychology of excellence and the psychology of flourishing to be able to help them and their people achieve the missions that they've set out to do together. And so we've got some incredible playbooks and practices that we're deploying across Microsoft, which is, you know, 180,000 employees, to smaller companies that have, you know, thousands. And so that's been a really interesting part of my arc over the last handful of years that I've really enjoyed. And then something that's fun is—we have a book coming out. So I just submitted the manuscript to Harvard Business Review, and it's coming out in 2023. And I'm super excited about that. So we don't have the working title down yet. We don't have some of the particulars. It's still in draft mode, but I'm excited. And so the central idea is around what I'm calling the number one constrictor for human potential, which is the fear of people's opinions as being this pervasive, haunting right underneath the surface, but does not rise to the level of clinical concern. Where people are uncommonly, relentlessly checking in with others to see if they're okay. And the level of contorting and conforming that takes place because of the fear of not being good enough is at an all-time high right now for many people. And so the way this whole thing came about is—I wrote an article about it on Harvard Business Review and they called me like 12 months later and they said, "Hey, we've got this thing we want to share with you." "Yeah?" "The article that you wrote was the number one downloaded article on HBR last year." And it scratched the itch for people. So we want to support you if you want to write a book about it. And I was like, yeah, that sounds great. And so that's coming out in 2023 and I'm super jacked about it.
Michael Frampton
Wow. Yeah, that sounds like a great book and—yeah, that's definitely a subject that needs digging into.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Yeah. Yeah, so thank you for that.
Michael Frampton
All right. Well again, thank you so much for your—wow, what a treat it was to have Michael back on the show.
Dr. Michael Gervais
Appreciate you.
Michael Frampton
I took away so much from this interview. I hope you did too, and I would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Please engage on Instagram or email me: mike@surfmastery.com. If this episode has inspired you to learn more about psychology and how it can help you not just as a surfer but just as a human, then reach out. Book a free 15-minute consultation through my website, surfmastery.com. It doesn't matter where you are in the world—it's all done via Loom and phone. I look forward to hearing from you. And until next time, stay tuned and keep surfing.
83 Sports Psychology for Surfers With Dr. Michael Gervais - High Performance Psychologist
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