123 Wave Count Wins: How Paddle Training Transforms Surfing with Van Vu of Basis Surf
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If you've ever struggled with wave count, paddle fatigue, or felt stuck in your surfing despite hours in the water, this episode is a game-changer. Van Vu — host of the Basis Surf Podcast and creator of the Basis Surf Paddle Trainer — unpacks the core reason most surfers plateau: poor paddle fitness and a rushed approach to board progression.
Discover how incremental board volume reduction can dramatically improve your surfing fundamentals and style.
Learn why elite surfers catch exponentially more waves — and how you can close the gap without living near a world-class break.
Hear Van’s insights from interviewing top surfers, shapers, and coaches, and how it shaped his holistic view of surf progression.
Hit play now to learn how to increase your wave count, accelerate your surf growth, and train smarter — starting today.
Transcript
Michael Frampton: So today on the show we have Van Vu. Van is a fellow surf nerd. , He's obsessed with surfing and he went into learning about surfing in a strong way, became obsessed of sorts, I would say, and that led him into having lots of conversations with different people.
And we share a similar journey because we ended up recording those conversations and sharing them with others in order to help them and on their surf journey. He is the host and producer of the Basis Surf, , podcast, and he is the founder and creator of the Basis Surf Paddle Trainer Van. Have I left anything out in that quick little intro?
Van Vu: I think those are the, the big things, but yeah, I'm, uh, very excited to, get interviewed by you and chat about, , surfing and let's, , let's nerd out together 'cause , that's what we both love to do. So
Michael Frampton: let's start from the beginning. What's your earliest surfing memory?
Van Vu: Oh my God. Such a favorite.
It's, , my cousin taught me how to surf. He, had long hair, a pukka shell necklace. He had, , a vintage VW bug bus and a bunch of longboards and a hot girlfriend. And, uh, he would take me surfing and I remember going with him, being like, oh my God, this is it. This is the dream. You know, I still remember, this is probably still the most magical surf memory of my entire life.
More so than any sick wave I've gotten in Hawaii, or Indo, or Central America or Europe or wherever. But, it was July 4th and, uh, we paddled out at night., This was, I wanna say, where was it? It might have been Dana Point or Huntington, somewhere over there, somewhere in Orange County. I don't remember.
, But they had this barge that was shooting off fireworks. You know, it was me and my cousins were just like all little kids. And, uh, this barge was shooting off fireworks, but my cousin had the idea of paddling out there with on Longboards. And so we just like paddled out there in the longboards on our longboards at night, and we were just lying on our backs, like watching this, the fireworks blow up above us.
And then as we paddled back, as we were paddling back in the, , the, basically the ocean, the phosphorescence of it, like illuminated it. So every time we were paddling in the water, our hands were glowing, you know, it was like this crazy, insane, wild experience. And I was just like, oh my God, I love this.
Yeah. Oh wow. How old were you then? I I was probably like eight, nine, something like that. 10, yeah. Yeah. And um, yeah, that's, and you have an experience like that and that, that's definitely a strong imprint for sure.
Michael Frampton: So then do you rem do you remember when you first got into short boarding?
Van Vu: Yes, for sure. Shortboarding was, 'cause I remember, and I think this was a huge mistake that I made actually.
So, you know, I grew up learning how to surf on longboards and um, but I remember, , you know, my cousin and he was always paddling around on shortboard and he would just catch waves and I would watch him catch these waves and he would catch these waves earlier and better than I would, even though I was on a long board.
And I always thought, okay, well obviously he's a really good surfer, so I want to surf like him, so I wanna ride a tiny chippy shortboard like he did. So that was always my goal, you know? And, um, of course what I did, what did I do? I moved down to riding the shortest, smallest board possible, like from the beginning, you know what I'm saying?
And uh, that was probably one of the biggest things that held back my progression for sure. , I think that you learn so much on riding longer boards that you can't learn or it's, it's gonna take you a lot longer to learn on a shorter board. , Just the way you read the ocean, for example. You know, obviously you can catch similar waves on a long board as a shortboard.
But if you're catching boards, if you're catching waves the way you should be when you're riding larger craft, you should be trying to get into those waves as early as possible before they even break. You know, especially if you're riding like a traditional longboard. And so by developing that skill of observing the ocean in that way.
, You are just gonna become a much better surfer 'cause you're just gonna understand the ocean much better. Versus when you're riding a shortboard you jump too quickly. What's gonna happen? And this is something that was a mistake that I made, right? Because you don't have the same buoyancy. , You kind of get into the habit of just waiting until the wave is just about to fall on your head.
And 'cause that's for sure when you're gonna have the most energy 'cause it's the steepest. But what happens is it you're actually catching the wave probably still too late. You know, the best surfers, when they're riding short boards, they're catching the wave still really early relative to beginner surfers.
You know, they're catching the wave often, sometimes right before the wave is gonna break in a similar fashion to what you'll see with people that are riding longboards. So what happens then is you develop all these bad habits because you're dropping into the wave kind of. So you don't have enough time to do a pop-up properly, so it messes up your pop-up mechanics.
You're at the bottom of the wave and then you're running outta speed. So you're doing all these like ugly pumps to try to get around the section and then you just miss so many waves that way. Whereas if you had learn, you know, taken a much more gradual approach, ridden a longer board, gotten better at your wave selection and really gotten used to that sensation of riding, you know, an open face green wave, I feel like you can just gradually step down your volume and you'll have much better results in terms of your style, wave, selection, speed, all of the, the fundamentals that are so key than just jumping straight to a shortboard and thinking that you look cool.
You know, that's the biggest thing that people care about though, is just looking cool, unfortunately, so.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well, it sounds like you learn the hard way. Oh yeah. , How long did it take for you to kind of see the light and then jump back on a board that was a bit more volumous?
Van Vu: You know, it was, it took a long time because I don't think it really was until, you know, this was, I mean, I still remember seeing like the first clips of, , Devon Howard riding a mid length, , when it started going viral, if you will, on Vimeo. Like, he, he wasn't even on YouTube. He wasn't even on Instagram.
I just remember seeing this really, this clip, it must have been like, I don't know, 12, 14 years ago, something like that. I, I don't even remember how long ago, and I just remember seeing him riding this bigger board and I was like, whoa, what is he doing? He's writing this weird looking board. I mean, weird relative to like this, this was like the same era when like Dane Reynolds came out with the proton and was like ripping on a proton, you know, the most rocked out board that you can get.
And then you see Devin Howard where, I mean, it's, it's all kind of it in that same timeframe. But I remember having like getting a proton, you know, a super rocker out, super knife board built for the most hollows of hollow waves and then struggling on a proton. And then I remember seeing Devin Howard , just doing these beautiful turns on a, on what would look like a, they called them fun boards back then.
Yeah. There was no term for them. That's right. They called 'em fun boards. I mean, I guess they call it, some people would call 'em eggs, but like that whole alternative surf world was much, \, it existed for sure, but it wasn't quite on the forefront of things. , And I saw that and that really like. Open my eyes, but even then I didn't h hop quite on that because there's still so much ego involved.
And the funniest thing about ego is your ego makes you think that you should just, you wanna like hold a narrower board under your arm, but what your ego should be telling you is you actually look worse on that short board. You know what I'm saying? And if you look at somebody that's riding a bigger board with, but with more control, more precision, catching better waves, you actually look better on that bigger board, even though the board is bigger, you know?
Yes. Yeah. So it's this weird, it's this weird thing, but people get hung up about writing, you know, a big board. Now that being said, I do think that in general, I think people should be slower to, um, drop volume in their boards 'cause they brush down too quick. But I also think one of the biggest, so I, I think I had like two interesting breakthroughs.
I had an interesting breakthrough when I went from riding super chippy short boards and then riding bigger boards. 'cause then all of a sudden I was making sections that I wasn't able to make. , I just had this different understanding of the wave 'cause just slows time down. And then it also allowed me to like, because it slowed time down, I was able to like focus on my turns and just like my timing and my understanding of it.
But then the second big unlock came when I started sizing down after that. Because I think a lot of people make a mistake where, well, it's not necessarily a mistake, it's more of like a, it's more of like a, a decision. It's a decision in terms of what you want out of your surfing. But you know, you can turn a bigger board.
You just look at Devon Howard, look at Torren Martyn, especially if you get the right board. I think riding twins, for example, in your mid lengths will loosen it up a lot. , But I experimented a bunch with mid lengths 'cause I just saw a lot of actually really good surfers in where I surf in Rockaway ride mid lengths as well.
These are guys that really rip, that are incredible surfers. But I noticed that they were riding these mid links on the really tiny days when, you know, Rockaway is just breaking super fast and is really soft and it's like hard to make these sections. And then you would also see them ride it when it's pumping and barreling.
So that's when I was like, oh, okay, this isn't unlock and it's not just for, you know, these are actually good surfers, they're riding these bigger boards. So that was like this really big unlock for me. So I was like, okay, this seems like something that is really gonna, that that could help my progression.
So I started experimenting with that. But then. That really took my, I, I would say that really helped my surfing in a lot of ways, but then I would get stuck, you know? And then I think the second unlock came after I had mastered a lot of the fundamentals that I'd gained from riding larger craft. And then once I had really started to kind of solidify those foundations, then I think the next step was actually sizing down and sizing down in a really thoughtful manner.
And for me, you know, I was very incremental in my approach. , , but the sizing down was a huge unlock because, you know, when you're riding a bigger board and you're trying to do a turn on a bigger board, you can do a turn on a bigger board, like I said, Devin Howard, and whatnot. But your foot placement has to be perfect, right?
You have to really get your foot all the way back. You also have to have your mechanics way more dialed. A bigger board is gonna be that much more resistant to your body mechanic, the the body mechanics that you utilize for your turn. So if you don't have the proper body mechanics and you don't get got your foot placement dialed in, when you go to try to do that, turn the board's just not gonna respond.
So I was getting hitting this other plateau and that's when I realized I really need to focus on downsizing my volume. And then once I started to downsize my volume, okay, and I worked on my body mechanics and really started to really dissect and think about, you know what, it takes the biomechanics of a turn.
Those two things together were key because by having a smaller board, number one, my foot placement naturally just landed much more all the way back. You know, and I know that a ton of surfers really struggle with moving their back foot. It's a skill that you have to develop, but it is a huge struggle for surfers.
You know, I talk to really, really good surfers and they still remind themselves like, I have to move that back foot. You know, that, that's such a big thing that everybody struggles with. So, but if you write a smaller board, your back foot just naturally lands smaller, lower back, far the back. 'cause you're just writing a shorter board.
So your foot placement gets solved and then because the board is more sensitive, it's gonna be more sensitive to you trying to do a turn. , Sometimes, there's that criticism. You'll see people where they're like, I mean we, you see this all the time. I think a lot of coaches talk about it.
People will move their arms and try to do a turn, but the board doesn't seem to move. Now a lot of that is 'cause there's this disconnection from the upper body to the lower body. Part of that is also that their foot placement probably isn't there. But a big part of it as well is they're just body mechanics aren't there.
So they don't know how to move their body to actually get the turn, and the board is too big. So by eliminating a bunch of those variables, okay, you got a smaller board, so your foot placement is naturally gonna be better. Your board is smaller, so it's more sensitive. So it's gonna naturally respond to you more.
And then, then what's gonna happen is you're gonna go through this really, it's, it's a little tricky, but it's kind of like a difficult phase where you're gonna experiment a lot with your technique, but it, and it is gonna look worse. That's the hard part. Your technique is gonna look worse because you're riding a more sensitive board and you haven't figured out the right body mechanics.
Mm. And that's the problem. You're riding. You're now, you went from riding a, a, you know, a rowboat, , or a tugboat to now you're riding like a no, you're, you, you went from riding a pickup truck or an 18 wheeler and now you're riding an F1 car, right? So when you jump into the F1 car, that thing's gonna go all crazy.
You're gonna be like wheel doing wheelies, you're gonna be falling over, flipping, all that kind of stuff. But that, the thing is, that's a natural part of the process where you need to go through that process. The board is gonna be more sensitive and it's gonna look worse, but at least you're gonna begin to feel, oh, when I do this, the board does this.
When I do that, the board does that. And you have to go through that process. But because, and what you wanna do is you want to gradually dial it down so it doesn't become too sensitive too quickly. But once you've done that, okay, then. Uh, you can really experiment with your body mechanics, how it impacts the board, and then eventually that's really gonna, I think, give you, allow you to finally, you know, realize the turns that you've been going for.
And so, I went from riding like five fives up to riding seven Os and now my board is a five two. Yep. Now I'm back down to five twos. Yeah. And now I'm finally feeling like, oh, that's what it feels like, truly feels like to do a, a proper turn on rail.
You know what I'm saying? Mm. And I'm wrapping all the way back and I'm, you know, I'm like, that's a proper turn, you know, and I'm feeling that rail engaged all the way around as I wrap around and I'm like. That's, that's it. And I wasn't able to do that on any other craft until I started to really size down.
Yeah. Now the problem, of course, the problem of course is when you size down, you need more paddle power. The big, that's the big thing. Um, and we can get into that, but so, um, and I think that there's a right size aboard. I think you wanna dial your quiver in depending on where you're surfing as well. I wouldn't ride a five two in with five four rubber in Rockaway, but I would ride that in Central America.
Right. Yeah. But you know, that, that's kind of a lot of the evolution or a lot of the thinking that I, I had to. To struggle through myself.
Michael Frampton: , That's, that's great advice. Um, stepping down incrementally from, from a, a long board all the way through to a shortboard is the way to do it. I mean, it's, it's laid out in front of us in the movie North Shore.
If, if you recall that one. That's, that's exactly what the surf, uh, his surfing teacher makes him do. Yeah. Yeah. Goes from the old, old, the massive traditional boards stepping down to clean up his technique. And, and the thing is, as you, as you progress down those surf boards, you can still keep them and surf.
Oh yeah. And because then they're relevant for different conditions and you build yourself a hundred percent nice little quiver.
Van Vu: A hundred percent. Yeah. No. 'cause then you can, I mean, I love. Busting out the seven, six. Every once in a while I actually got a seven, six. 'cause I'm like, I'm gonna ride this when it's like one foot.
You know, I have a traditional longboard, you know, I'll ride, I'll ride those guys when it's one foot. I'm not, there's not, you're not gonna have any kind of fun on like a, a smaller craft. So, yeah. Um, you know, it's like, uh, golf clubs or whatever as they say
Michael Frampton: Yes. Now, what was the inspiration for starting the podcast?
Van Vu: Inspiration was just, I wanted to talk to my heroes. Well the first thing is your podcast was an inspiration For sure. 'cause you have interviewed so many legends and I was like, this was, this was so great and I, but I wanted to like, dig into it. I had my own questions and I wanted to talk to not just coaches, but I also wanted to talk to pro surfers and I wanted to talk to board makers as well, and shapers and, and really.
Get a perspective from like. All the different angles, you know, what is it like inside the, inside the mind of an elite like Parker Coffin or Dan Goki or Zeke Lau. And then what is it like when I'm talking to a coach who like Doug Silva, who's coaching Seth Moniz, and then what about.
Interviewing Eric, a Hawa who actually makes the boards for, you know, all the best pros that are when they're coming to Hawaii. So I wanted to get that almost three dimensional view of, kind of the best of the best in all the different areas that would help your surfing. , And um, but it was just pure selfishness.
I just wanted to ask nerdy questions to, you know, my favorite surfers, you know, and, uh, and unlock like little hidden gems along the way. Um, that would help my surfing. And, uh, but I knew for it to get. You know, to have the biggest impact. I, you know, I was like, well, I wanna help other surfers as well. 'cause there was so little of that dialogue and that discussion.
, And your podcast was, again, a huge inspiration. But I wanted to go even nerdier and more into the weeds a little bit, although you, you definitely do that as well. Um, and it kind of just like snowballed. You know, I, I had a couple friends on the podcast and then I got Isaac St.
Stand, who's a pro surfer, you know, he, he, but he grew up surfing with Matt Meola and Albee Layer and all the Big Jaws guys that Pioneer Jaws. And then I got Matt Meola, and then I got, you know, and it just kind of went from there. So, you know, when you got the world's best aerialists in the world, you know, and, uh, that, that definitely got the ball rolling.
And, uh, I've just been really lucky to, to nerd out and just ask all the questions. That I, that I wanted to.
Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well, and listeners of this show love that stuff. So, I urge 'em to go ahead and, and, uh, get into yours, which is Basis Surf Podcast on all platforms, including YouTube. It's awesome.
You've gone the extra effort and put the, uh, into producing the actual videos and putting them on YouTube, which is awesome. So definitely urge people to go and check that out. There will be links to that podcast in the show notes. Now, what are some of the main lessons that you've learned through doing the podcast and how has that helped your surfing?
Van Vu: I think it is kind of what I mentioned earlier where it's like every coach. Has their own a way of explaining things and their own perspective on things. , Of course there's lots of like small details that have been very interesting, uh, that I've learned, but it's almost more, and, but the interesting thing is when you listen to this podcast enough and you get this, the, these di what can be actually fairly divergent opinions on things.
So you'll interview, I'll, I'll interview one coach and he'll be talking about how you wanna be really all on your front foot, and then I'll interview another coach and they'll be like, you want to be all the way on your back foot, , and it's interesting, uh, I was talking to Philippe Malvo about this.
So he's a, he's a really good coach. He, uh, is coached like Kaa Ahi. And so let's, let's, let's give you some examples of the continuum, right? So like, I know Clayton from Albe talks a lot about being on your front. And then I was talking to Shado, north Shore pipe legend. He's like, you gotta be all on your back foot.
And then I was talking to Philippe Malvo and he was talking, and we were actually having this discussion about how it's so interesting that different coaches and different people will have different perspectives. Like, should you be more front footed? Should you more be more back footed? But what I think it has allowed me to do is it's allowed me to realize, number one, there's a continuum with anything, right?
And what you're trying to do is you're trying to manage that continuum and you have to figure out where you are, where you wanna position yourself on that continuum, because, and you also have to calibrate it to the wave. Okay? And you have to calibrate it to the board that you're writing. So when it comes to front foot versus back foot, right?
Obviously, you know, most people know the basics. Front foot, you're gonna generate more speed back foot for more control. On the side of like shado, there's no way in hell you're gonna do a turn on a longboard if your weight is all on your front foot. The only way to turn a longboard is to get your back foot, all the way back on the back foot.
That's the only way you're gonna turn it. Right. But, you know, what is, what is Clayton talking about? Or is he insane? Well, no, he's not insane. Right? So you can get more speed and engage the rail when you put more weight onto the front foot when you're doing your turn. So really, you know, both are right.
But I think the real question is understanding where, what that continuum is you wanna play on, right? So you have to start to think about, okay, there is such a thing as weight distribution, right? I should be cognizant of. How much weight do I have on my front foot? How much weight do I have on my black foot, back foot?
When am I applying pressure to the front foot, foot versus the back foot, throughout the different, you know, sections of the turn that I'm going through. And then you also have to recognize that you have to, and this is where I think working with a coach like you, Michael, or whoever that you decide to work with, you know, is really helpful because everybody comes into their technique with certain, uh, what do I say?
Like, uh, tendencies, you know? So Shado, I, when I interviewed him, I was like, well, did you used to be, have you always been back footed? He's like, no, I actually used to be too front footed and I had to overcorrect and go much more onto my back foot, and that's what unlocked it for me, right? Mm-hmm. Whereas there's, I mean, I, I haven't asked Clayton this, but.
I wouldn't be surprised if I was, if Clayton came from a world where he just naturally was too back footed and he was stalling out and he, and then what was the big unlock for him is by focusing more on getting weight onto the front foot, he was able to generate way more speed, , so I think everybody's coming at technique from a certain, not bias perspective, but a little bit of a bias perspective.
'cause this is how they've figured out the problem themselves. And the thing is that it really depends on where you're coming from. So if you're already a really front footed surfer and then someone tells you you need to be even more on the front foot and then you're trying to do a turn on a mid length is probably not gonna work, right?
. You might actually have to go actually more onto your back foot. And that's where having a coach is gonna be helpful. 'cause they can actually see what you're doing and be like, oh, you probably actually need to get more on your back foot. Or it might be the opposite, right? You might be writing a shortboard.
You're just doing these really flicky turns and you're just stalling out. And the answer for you might be, oh, you should actually try to get more on your front foot. Right? But by understanding that continuum, okay, front foot versus back foot, understanding where you're coming in at it, okay? And then kind of putting all these pieces together, uh, really analyzing your technique and all that, then I think you can develop this much more comprehensive and, uh, picture and understanding of what's going on.
Um, but I think that's just one example of what I mean by how talking to all these different coaches and pros and shapers and whatnot have helped me develop like this, you know, three dimensional map in my head of different perspectives of how it all actually works. Because I think in a lot of ways, um.
Talking about surfing and like being technical, discussion of surfing is in, you know, I've had this discussion with, um, uh, with, uh, oh my god, I'm blanking. Marcelo, you know, he's an Olympic surf coach. He's at Puro Surf. Mm-hmm. And he is like, we, we are, we are talking. He was just like, yeah, surf coaching and discussion of surfing is like kind of still in its infancy.
Like, 'cause he talks about BJJ and BJJ, it's super technical, right? Yeah. But you're able to practice things and drill things over and over again. And he was talking about like, like, I mean, you talk to a lot of pros and you, you talk to a lot of pros and they're just like, I don't know how I do what I do.
You know?
Yeah. Yeah.
Van Vu: I, um, you know, like, uh, I remember, uh, Nathan Florence was like trying to figure out, he, you know, he does, he went on like air camp and he was like, I, he was like, he was like, he went to John, John, his brother, and was like, Hey, how do you do an air. And then John John's response was like, uh, I, I don't know.
You just, you just go fast and then you, you see the section and then you just, you know, you just do the air. That's how the world's best, one of the world's best aerialists describes how to do an air. So there's this really big disconnect between like how the best, so I don't necessarily think that the best surfers are the best teachers.
That's a hundred percent for sure. Not the case. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, but the, the language and the, the way of thinking about it, especially because surfing as a culture is very resistant to training, resistant to like being technical. 'cause it's like a lifestyle.
Yeah. It, it's in and it's kind of still in this infancy. Um, and um, I feel like by talking to all these people, I've begun to like flesh out, like, at least for myself and hopefully for the people that listen to my podcast, their understanding of . How things work. Um, and I don't know, it's been really helpful for me and I get, , I get a ton of people being like, oh, you got my, I got my first barrel from that tip, or whatever, , and that, that's really gratifying.
So, um, you know, oh, awesome. Hopefully it's helping others as well. Yeah,
Michael Frampton: , Yeah. Surfing is so nuanced and varied as well, because yeah, if you're growing up on the North Shore on a surf, surf on a shortboard and big, a big shortboard and you wanna do powerful turns, yeah, you're gonna be on your back foot a little bit more than someone who's on a small wave shortboard in weak waves.
They might need to be a bit more front footed or, or maybe exactly, maybe one of their legs has a, an old ankle injury and you, your body resists putting weight on that foot, or maybe a particular surfboard needs more weight forward or back or, so yeah, I think it's cool to go through all these different tips, like you said, and try them and see what suits your surfing.
And then you kind of, you, I guess you kind of develop your own sense over time of trying all these different way ways of thinking.
Van Vu: Well, I mean, so that's the thing, right? I mean, so, you know, you bring up a good point, like, how the heck did John, John get so good? Like, he never thought about it. So how did he do it?
But I mean, so this is what it comes down to, right? There's two ways to learn., One way of learning is, and this is the way all the best pros did, they just learned it through brute volume. You know, if you're a kid and you have unlimited amounts of time to surf and you go for. Million waves every time you go surf.
'cause your body is young and you never get tired and you can spend four hours, five hours, six hours, eight hours just like in your backyard. 'cause your backyard's at the north shore, you're gonna catch a million waves and it's just gonna be trial and error and you're just gonna subconsciously absorb the technique.
It's gonna become this, you know, there's different levels of learning, right? So there's um, there's unconscious competence, which is where John John's at. Like he is incredibly competent, but he's unconscious. He, he, he just knows how to do it right. And then there's conscious competence and then there's uh, conscious incompetence and then there's unconscious incompetence.
And a lot of people are unconsciously incompetent and they don't even know what they're doing wrong and they're just doing it wrong. Right? And then, then there's consciously competent. Now that's a really tricky situation to be in 'cause it's. The most demoralizing. An ego that hurts the ego the most.
'cause you know you're doing it wrong, but you can't stop it. But at least that's the place where you can begin to improve. Okay. And then eventually, hopefully you get to consciously competent, right? But like, the way, there's two ways to get to consciously competent, which is where, and then eventually, unconsciously competent is volume.
That's really what it comes down to. It is volume and then doing it intelligently. So there's like, in my view, there's this curve that you can go on. So the, the curve that has , the, you want to be on the curve that is gonna have the steepest line. 'cause for every additional wave or additional rep that you get, you're gonna learn more.
And I think the way you do that is by being really conscious of what you're doing and being aware of what you're doing. And the more aware you are what of what you're doing. And I don't want you to get in your head and overanalyze every little thing. And especially if you're the kind of person that gets really self-critical.
But if you're hyper aware and you're hyper curious, I believe that you can accelerate that progression, , that the slope of that line. But even if you are super aware and nerdy and you listen to every single one of my podcasts and every single one of your podcasts, Michael, unless you put in the volume, you're not gonna have any results.
'cause you still need that feedback from the world. So you can have this incredible theoretical understanding, but if you don't combine it, 'cause ultimately this is a sport, if you don't combine it with actual volume and catching more and more waves, your theory is never gonna meet the real world. And then as a result, you're not gonna progress.
So the key ingredient is volume. And that's what all the best surfers in the world have. They just surf a. And then that's how they get good and they just figure it out. And they're also genetic freaks. Right. But the problem, so there's two things. The, the, here's the two things for the everyday surfer that can't surf all the time.
So what are the two things that you need to do? Okay. Number one, learn as much as possible. So great resources like Surf Mastery Podcast, my podcast. And then number two, you need to catch more waves. Yeah. That's the biggest thing. Exactly. Right? Yes. Because the more waves you catch, the more reps you get, the faster you learn is very simple math.
Yeah. And the key, the, the key thing to getting more waves, the biggest limiting factor for most surfers is their paddle power. Definitely. You know, and that, and that's why I developed a basis paddle trainer. 'cause that was my limiting factor. That's the biggest thing that was holding me back,
Michael Frampton: you know?
Yeah.
Van Vu: Um, so. It, it was, it was, that is the other piece. I
Michael Frampton: think the, that allowed me to really accelerate my curve. I love what you're saying there, and I, I think you can let, obviously there, if you started surfing when you were four and you're, you're paddling every day as your body grows, you are developing that paddle fitness, but you're also, most of these pro surfers, they are, they're kind of genetic freaks.
They're, they're so gifted. Yeah. They're, their neurological level of body awareness is just better than ours. But what you can do as an adult lo learner or someone who's been surfing or their lives and wants to obsess on it for a period of time, whatever, you're, wherever you are in that journey, if you start training on dry land and going through the repetitions of good technique and body position in a mirror, for example, you can increase your body awareness and your, your surf body intelligence very, very fast and without getting as much time in the water.
However you're right. If you wanna put that new, stronger, more aware surf style into practice by standing on more waves and then working on your technique, it's not gonna happen if you can't paddle into the wave. And the thing is, the thing is, I, I actually think that once you're standing up on a surfboard with your feet in the right place, surfing's actually not that difficult.
You look at a lot of surfers, especially aki, they don't even move their bodies that much. They just stand in the right way. And they have great timing and and balance. But going from lying on your stomach and paddling into a wave with good timing to getting to your feet pad, paddling into a wave, especially on a shortboard, is an athletic feat.
Man, it is hard. And if you don't have the strength and endurance to paddle, it's just not gonna happen. It really isn't. And if you don't have access to a swimming pool, I mean, swimming's great, but it. You know, you don't have the res resistance of a surfboard. So Yeah. I love what you've done with, with the product.
'cause elastic vans and cable machines at the gym, just don't cut it, man. I've, I, I've been through stages of that and it, it doesn't cut it. So what, what inspired you to develop this, this product?
Van Vu: Yeah. It is literally, I mean, literally what I just talked about, like, I realized, I was looking at my progression and I realized this is this massive bottleneck and I'm the kind of person that gets really, really obsessed with things.
And like, I'm only gonna commit myself to something if I think that I have a decent shot at getting good at it. Like, I'm not gonna bother like getting into surfing if I'm just gonna be a mediocre, crappy surfer. And then I started getting, you know, and I was just like, I'm, I feel like I'm hitting this bottleneck living in New York with the, you know.
I was like, maybe I should just give up surfing. Like maybe I just gonna focus on other things. Like I have a ton of friends that have been like that. Like my friend Kela grew up surfing, you know, went to the same high school as John. John, you know, and I mean, he still surfs, he still loves surfing, but like he's very much like a recreational surfer now.
He'll just go and surf and catch a couple waves and have a beer on the beach. You know what I'm saying? He's not like, that's not his thing anymore because he's just like, I live in New York now and I don't get to surf enough. The waves. I mean, waves can get good, but like I can't stay in shape. I have a lot of friends are like that, you know, uh, there's actually a lot of Hawaii people in New York.
And um, so I just realized, okay, there's this huge bottleneck, there's this massive bottleneck in surfing and it's because of just staying in paddle shape. You know, um, unless you live right next to the beach and it's super convenient for you to just like, run out the, I have friends that live at Rockaway Beach, literally five minutes from the beach, and they complain to me about their paddle fitness because when it's cold and, and here in New York it'll go, you can go several weeks before there's good waves.
Hmm.
Van Vu: , If it's freezing and snow is on the ground and the wind is howling at 40 miles an hour, do you really want to get into a five, four wetsuit and then paddle around one foot waves? No. Most, a lot of people are not gonna wanna do that, you know? So I was just like, and then, so I was just like, how do I stay in shape for these swells?
How do I stay in shape when I am gonna go on a surf trip? So I tried all the things we, you were just talking about. I tried elastic resistance bands. I roll up on trips and I would get smoked. Okay. I tried funny exercise sizes on the cable machine. I would get smoked, I would go to the pool. This is how desperate I was.
Just everybody's listening. Just imagine the kookiest guy in his swimming pool strapping a, uh, flotation boards to his chest to pretend like it was flotation on a surfboard. And then paddling around with that. You would think it would've worked. It still didn't quite do it. There's something about, you know, like I wasn't able to train.
Getting into that, that arch maintaining that prone position with that arch is incredibly, I have so many people who are like, that is my biggest limiting factor. I just can't stay in that position.
Hmm.
Van Vu: And what people don't understand is that holding that position has such a huge impact on your paddle endurance.
Okay. Because. A lot of people really struggle with their paddling just because of the recovery stroke. That's the limiting factor. You know, when like you get into that, you're like, I can't lift my hands and like do another paddle.
Mm.
Van Vu: That's because all these tiny little rotator cuff muscles that are required when you're doing external rotation and abduction, those don't get worked at all doing anything in regular life, like daily, modern life, you never work out those muscles.
And then you go from not surfing, having not surfed for three weeks, and you go on a surf trip and you're surfing five hours a day for 10 days straight. What's gonna happen to you? You're, you're working these tiny little muscles. So you're not doing that prone position either. You're doing the opposite when you're sitting at a desk.
Yeah. So the thing is that those, those two things are very interrelated though, because when you're, if you don't have enough arch in your back and you can't maintain that for long extended periods of time, then what's gonna happen is your shoulders and your te your chest are gonna drop down to the board.
What, what's gonna happen there then is in order to do your recovery stroke, which is when you're returning your hand from the end of the stroke to the beginning of the stroke, is gonna be so much more strenuous because you're gonna have to lift your hand over the water. But if your chest is right at the water, you have to, you have the, the range of movement and kind of, um, activity that is gonna be required is gonna be so much more.
Hmm. So versus if you're able to maintain that arch, you're gonna be able to, um, you're gonna have so much more space and you don't have to lift your shoulders quite as much anymore. , So if you, if you're able to maintain that high arch in your back, well, this means that when you lift your hand or return it over the water for your recovery stroke, it's gonna be a solid two to three inches below your shoulder.
So that means so much less. Energy needed and strain on your rotator cuff muscles just for that recovery stroke. Right. , Those two things are when I, they're, you know, I have, there's hundreds of people in my community, you know, that I'm helping that have gotten the trainer and I'm watching their technique and there's, I'm watching them.
And, , that is, those two things are some of the most common mistakes that I see. There are the limiting factor for these guys. And so those are the things though. You can't really train unless you know, you, you're actually gonna, I mean, you can train it. This, that's, that's, that's what was the eye-opening thing for me.
I was like, I, I need to figure out how to train this. And then by training it, , I will go for not surf. I mean, leading up to the launch of, uh, the product. I went and didn't surf for six months basically. 'cause I was just working 24 7. And then, um, I roll up and I went down to Central America on swell and the waves were.
It was the biggest swell of the year. Like I was out there with, , it some, in some pretty fun waves, you know, it was like double, triple overhead. And I was surfing on my five two and I was surfing for three hour sessions, two, three hour sessions a day, , and while, and then I would work, but I was able, I went from not surfing, but I was paddle training.
That was the thing, ? So for anybody that struggles with getting in shape, you know, who has a limited time? I mean, that's a, that's the thing, that's the, the biggest resource is not is, is just your time. So if you're gonna spend all this money to go on a surf trip, and then you're gonna roll up on that surf trip, and then halfway through the surf trip, you're just smoked.
You came a surfer, you're just in pain, which was me, right? And then you just spend half that trip just being bummed. 'cause you're looking at all these other people just get in the ways of their life. But you can't even like paddle anymore 'cause you're just so tired. That's the most frustrating thing in the world, right?
Yeah. So why not just dedicate a little bit of time, train beforehand, and then roll up and then you're gonna be having the time of your life. So, and, and that's the key thing to accelerating your progression as well, you know? So,
Michael Frampton: oh yeah, yeah. Catch more waves. Simple as that. And you have to,
Van Vu: it's
Michael Frampton: so simple.
Yeah. No, I'm, I'm impressed with the, the product that you've developed. It's the most, it's the closest thing to, to paddling a surfboard out there, full stop. Even if you walk into a, a fancy gym with all the expensive equipment, nothing comes close to what you've developed, and it fits in a suitcase and it costs less than a secondhand surfboard.
It's, it's kind of a no-brainer.
Van Vu: I mean, you know, there's a, a surfer in my community, uh, Pierre, he, uh, he's only used it for a month and he goes to the wave pool and he gave me actual numbers so I can quantify it, right? So he went from catching five waves, five waves, a session going for eight of them to catching about 10 waves a session and going for 12 of them.
Now, if you look at those ratios, right, so why, what, and so number one, he doubled his wave count going from five to 10. Number two, he dramatically increased the conversion of waves that he paddled for, that he actually caught. And the thing that he realized is he would struggle to pop up and everybody struggles with their popup.
But what makes you really struggle with your pop-up is when you're massively fatigued, you're already tired from paddling. Yes. Then you have to do this really dynamic explosive movement and then you can't get to your feet 'cause you're tired. So that's the reason why he was able to go from eight attempted waves in catching five to 12 attempted waves in catching 10.
Right. So you, he ratio improved and now he's talking about this is, he's like, I'm only a month in, he's like, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna soon be able to do two sessions in a day as opposed to just one. So he did, if he does two sessions, he's gonna go from catching five waves to catching 20 waves. That's a four x improvement in his wave count.
That's that's on one day. But then what if you multiply that over every week, every month, over years. Forex is just gonna get exponentially faster. His progression is gonna go exponentially faster, you know? So it really comes down to volume. That's what it comes down to. It comes down to your wave count, it comes down to your volume.
And anything that you can do to improve that conversion of waves that you paddle force so you catch more waves, that's gonna be the biggest thing that's gonna be where you're gonna get the highest return on investment. So earlier I was talking about that slope of your acceleration and your progression, right?
So you gotta think about, how do I get more volume in there, right? And then how do I get that slope faster? And really is just catching more waves. I mean, that's the big multiplier, just sheer volume. You could mess everything else up. You could literally mess everything else up. You could have the worst technique, you could have the worst coach, you could have the most bungled, messed up popup ever.
But if you catch enough waves, you're gonna eventually figure it out. But if you. Get a lot of wa if you get tons and tons of waves and you learn the proper technique for all these other things, your, your acceleration curve is gonna be even way better than somebody who's just, what do, what do most people do?
They just bumble along. They're like, oh, I'm surfing. And then, you know, this is actually what most people do. And they're like, get in a surfing. They're like, oh, I wanna surf like jonjo. And then they see jonjo surfing. They're like, let me look how, how to do a turn. And then they get really obsessed with like the technique to do a turn, but they don't even know how to like catch waves and pop up.
Yeah. Oh yeah. They came and generate speed and they're just like, how do I do a turn on a shortboard? I'm like, you're focusing on the wrong thing right now.
Michael Frampton: Yep. You know? Yep. People do. That's that's a big problem, man. It's you. You've gotta paddle. It's
right.
Michael Frampton: There's no way around it, man. Yeah. There is no way around it.
The best in the world will paddle past you on smaller boards. 'cause that's. That's the difference, right? How strong they are at paddling and uh, yeah. I love this product, man. And people, people who are obsessed with surfing and want to get better, they will put the time and effort in. They might not tell anyone that they're doing that.
They're doing 15 minutes of paddle training a day. That's fine, but it doesn't matter because they're surfing will speak volumes. Where can people go to have a look at and see this product, find out more about it and purchase it?
Van Vu: Yeah, just go to surf basis.com. That's SURF, uh, S-U-R-F-B-A-S-I s.com. Uh, or just check out the, our Instagram, , go surf basis.
, And um, yeah, you find us on there. We're on, pretty much on all the social media channels. We're on podcasts, we're on Spotify, all that kind of stuff. Um, yeah. And , if I was gonna say one more, 'cause you know I'm a nerd. Lemme just give you one more numerical example, right. Let's say, 'cause I, I think this touches on like so many things, right?
So let's say in an hour you have a good surfer. And so , this is the reason why I named basis, basis. I like to think about surfing as being like this pyramid. So at the, it's this pyramid, right? Most people are focused on the very tippy top of that pyramid, which is like doing turns.
But really that's like the icing, that's the cherry on the cake, right? At the very bottom though, it's actually not even paddling. It's ocean knowledge and reading waves, that's the very base. You could be the best power in the world, but if you can't read waves, you're, you're not gonna catch any waves. But then above that is your paddling, and then above that is gonna be your popup.
And then above your pop-up is speed generation. And then you get to do turns and then like there's a continuum over here that supports it, or a tray that supports it, which is gonna be board selection, , your PT mobility and making sure your, your body is healthy and all of your training and all that kind of stuff.
But like, that's the pyramid, right? And most people are focused on the wrong part of the pyramid when they should be focusing on the base, which is why I named it basis, which is paddling. That is, when I interviewed Zeke Lau, he is CT surfer and he was like, he said, paddling is the basis of surfing, right?
He struggles with paddling and he would train paddling. But the other way you can think about it is, you can think of this, you can flip the pyramid and you can think about it as like a funnel. And what you're trying to do is you wanna. Make that funnel as wide as possible to catch as many waves. And then you wanna convert as many of those waves into good waves as possible so you can get more reps.
So you can do more turns. And then that's what's gonna yield the biggest progression. So if you look at a good surfer, what's gonna happen is they have a really wide funnel. 'cause they have really good wave reading. And so let's say that they can, in an hour, they can identify and catch 10 waves in a session.
Okay? Now of those 10 waves that they identify, let's say they have the paddle power, 'cause they're in good shape to catch nine of them, then they can pop up on eight of them. And then let's say they successfully pick the right line, generate speed, and then get to do turns on seven of them, right? Yeah, seven or six of them, something like that.
Now compare a beginner surfer or a beginner, intermediate surfer. So in that same hour they may only see six waves. They may only have the power paddle, power catch three of them. They pop up on two of them and only on one of them did they even get to ride it and they may not have even gotten a section to do a turn.
Right. So then what is that ratio then you're looking at six waves that the good surfer is gonna get versus one wave for the beginner surfer. That's a six to one ratio. Yeah, that's in one hour. Right now that's one hour. But then what if you know, if you're a good surfer and the waves are good, you're gonna surf for three hours.
So you're gonna get 18 waves If you're a good surfer. If you're a beginner surfer, you're not even gonna be able to surf three hours 'cause you're gonna be too tired and you don't have the paddle power. So you may only surf two hours, so you're gonna get two waves. So now you can going 18 waves versus two waves.
That is a nine x difference between the good surfer and the beginner surfer now and. That is why good surfers, they have the, it almost seems unfair, like you'll be pa I mean this has happened, right? I'm sure this has happened to every one of us. We're paddling out, we see a good surfer, catch a good wave, rip the crap out of it, and then they make it out.
We're still trying to make it out the back. We're take duck diving and then you see 'em paddle out and then you see 'em catch another wave. That's what's happening. So if you're a good surfer, you may get nine more, nine times the number of waves. A beginner surfer is gonna get nine times the number of waves, and that's just in one session.
Again, scale that up over weeks, months, years. That's why good surfers are it. It seems like magic when you look at a pro in the water, you're just like, that doesn't seem even human, what you're doing. Like when I'm on the North Shore and I see like pros in the water, I'm just like. I don't know how you took off like 20 yards behind the section that everybody else is sitting on and you still made that wave, , and when everybody was like, , and you come from around the section and you just like do a turn in the most death-defying place where everybody just be scared for their lives.
Like that's what I, when I'm, I remember seeing just crazy stuff like that on the North Shore when I was there. I'm just like, but they, they're catching nine waves, nine times as many waves every single time they paddle out versus like a normal surfer. Yeah. And so it's almost disheartening 'cause you're like, well what am I gonna do?
Well focus on the fundamentals, catch more waves, get your paddle power in shape, and you're gonna be able to increase your ratio and you're gonna be able to catch more waves and your acceleration curve is gonna dramatically get steeper versus someone that isn't training. Yeah. If you can bump that conversion ratio for any of these components, even a little bit, it is gonna pay dividends and you gotta think about compound interest.
Right. Don't think about it in terms of like. One session. Think about it, session over session over days, months, years. 'cause this is a game of years that certain, right? Yep. It's a game of years. So you really have to think about how are you gonna get steep in that curve over years. And then if you just pay attention to that long-term, big term objective, don't even worry you're, that progression will take care of itself if you put enough volume into it.
So, um, yeah, I don't know. It's something I feel really passionate about, so I just wanted to Yeah. Share that, so
Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Totally agree. And furthermore, it's not just the beginners. Like even if, if you're out in the water and you are as good a surfer as the surfers that are sitting on the peak, but they surf every day, they're just gonna out pedal you.
They're gonna snake you. Oh yeah. So even if you're a good surfer and now you're working lots and you don't have time to eat in the water, well. Yeah, you still, you wanna go out there and compete, you gotta keep your paddle fitness, it's the first thing to go in terms of surfing hundred percent surfing skills and surfing fitness, it's the first thing to go.
So maintaining that surfing fitness is key. Like even when I was living in, in Sydney, Tom Carroll's ocean, open ocean swimming every day. Yeah. Just to keep up paddle fitness.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton: Yep. That's what it is. That's a big, that's that's huge. Yeah. Yeah. Van, thank you so much. Remind us again of the website and the podcast.
Van Vu: Yep. It's, uh, surf basis.com. That's S-U-R-F-B-A-S-I s.com. And so, , if listeners want a discount, you guys can use the code,, surf Mastery . And get a discount and, , get, , your wave counts up.
Michael Frampton:
. Awesome. There'll be links to all that stuff in the show notes and of course on my Instagram with this, uh, post as well.
Van, thank you so much. Appreciate your time and your efforts in the podcast. And of course, uh, I imagine it was a hell of a journey developing such a product. Um, so thank you for doing it.
Van Vu: Yep. It was three years. I traded a nine to five for a 24 7 for three years, but, uh, hopefully, uh, I've, I'm gonna be able to help some people along the way and that's, that's what makes, uh, s will make it all worth it.
So, yeah.
Michael Frampton: Awesome. Thanks Van. Alright.
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced