Devon Howard explains mid length surfboards, appropriate conditions for use, correct technique, the right size for you, their limitations, history of, how to duck-dive them and much more.
@devon_howard.
https://www.instagram.com/devon_howard/?hl=en
Inspiration:
https://cisurfboards.com/products/ci-mid
Devon surfing
Torren Martyn
Mikey Feburary
Alex Knost
Machado
Transcript
Michael:
Started and this is where I fade in my conversation with even help
Devon:
My legs are not super strong because I'm a longboard surfer and longboard surfers don't. We don't get down real low and compress out of things like a short board surfer. We're not using our quads or tush as much. I think we use more of our feet and our calf. You know, everything in here and in here is pretty strong because you're always if you think about longboarding you're really upright in your on one foot or the other because you're walking. When you when I go to one foot, I can feel my feet really dig into the floor. You know, and I think if I'm short boarding my feet are apart. My feet are strong, but I feel like more is going on. Here in my quads. So it's its just interesting how you your body develops based on the type of surfing you're doing. You know, if you're not as maybe well rounded, some people surf short board and longboard regularly you know they've got to cover it, but
Michael:
It’s an interesting segue into longboarding and how it can come from the feet. A lot.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
There’s something I've noticed now because I started longboarding about a year ago. And I got a nine three sort of performance ish longboard. And thought I was long boarding. And then last time I met you said, you suggested getting a different kind of board and I got a nine eight log from Wayne rich.
Devon:
Oh, nice
Michael:
And you cannot impose your will on that board.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
Because he just wants to do what the waves doing.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
So you have to listen to the board and the wave.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
And if you go and try and do your short boarding, or even performance, long boarding techniques, then the board just says no, and just stays we're doing so then yeah, I'm finding I have to really be aware of what my ankle was doing.
Devon:
Sure.
Michael:
And listen to the wave with my ankle.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
And then trying to cross tip that's a lot harder than I thought it would be as well.
Devon:
Sure.
Michael:
So I'm definitely becoming more aware of my foot and ankle years I learned to ride a traditional style longboard.
Devon:
Yeah, it's something I didn't think about a whole lot when I was younger, but then in more recent years, people have asked, How can I knows write better and then like, wow, okay, well, let's start thinking about this and just walking around on the floor, trying to show someone a technique that you start realizing like you just said, there's a lot going on in your ankles. In all those. When you wiggle your toes, you see all those things moving in your foot, like they're all talking to one another. And I remember there was a guy 30 years ago at Cardiff. He made a balance board he was a chiropractor, he made a board call the chango board, and there’s been a million different balance boards. His was really simple. It was just like a one of those softballs. You go and hit it, the batting cages and a circular piece of plywood and you just cut a little hole in it. And you stood on it. Any gave me one wanted me to buy it, but I didn't bite so he gave it to me. And he said this will help your serve your longboard surfing immensely. And this guy is way older than we were like way older and he could. At the time, he was probably in his mid to late 40s which seems really old and but he was hanging 10 really well. And he was giving credit to this board. You know, like the when you're riding a wave you don't have that many opportunities to practice. But on land, you know when nothing's going on, you stand on this balance board. It will get your ankles and the metatarsal, all those things talking to one another. He would call he was describing it as like kind of firing up your engine down there like just getting things because you wake up in the morning. There's all that stuff going on with your body it's really heavy and if you've ever gone surfing and felt a little off the first few waves it takes you a few waves to get settled in. Standing on one of these boards, gets you almost often going immediately if you do it. Right before you go surfing you do it the parking lot you do in your living room. But in the back to the longboarding thing. It's having all the toes, ankles and everything. I mean you could describe it better medically but everything's communicating with one another and a lot of long boarding’s, finesse and balance and you know it's not these extreme power maneuvers, especially if you're into the traditional longboard surfing, that's on what we call a log or a traditional traditional longboard has no edge in the tail and real flat usually have a single fin and they're really stable in the water. And there's no rules but I think culturally and in the tradition of surfing, we've really valued clean, balanced surfing, you know, there's no like erratic maneuvers. And if we were to just walk around on the floor right here now and just kind of walk smoothly back and forth. You would feel everything's kind of happening down and your foot and your calf. I think if you want to learn how to knows ride, being aware of that, you could get there quicker. A lot of people want to know how to nose right now, like how can I figure it out? It's so hard. Aside from these balance boards, I would I would tell people to just pick kind of a straight line on the floor and just start cross stepping one foot over the other. And we're talking here so you can't see anything visually but there's also something that goes on as as each foot in a cross that moves forward and over the other is a shift of the transfer of the weight. When your nose riding. You don't want the weight of your body on the forward hip. So whatever's most forward, you know, let's say if you're a regular foot and you're going right and you're walking toward the nose of the board, the in that case your left hip would be the fluid hit. You really want the weight of your bodies more on your right hip and your right tush so that as you walk forward, even if you're standing on your left foot, yeah, so I'll see if I can do with this microphone. So if I'm standing the tail of the board and regular foot and I'm going right, I'll initiate the first step forward, which will put weight on my left foot into my quad. But I want to be leaning back because if I if if I go forward and I'm leaning in and leaning forward, on my right foot that's now in front of me. I'll want to keep falling forward. So when you cross step, you're always kind of a little bit of a lean like if you look at Joel Tudor are great nose writers like David Nueva. And especially you'll see this in women. Women are really good across stepping way that they're built physically, I think really helps this technique, which is the hip, forward foot so before I start cross stepping, in this case, it's my left foot, that would be the leading hip is going to go out a little bit. And then the back foot is now going to come over the front and I'm gonna do my first cross step. At this point, I'm in this sort of in between moment the weight is really here, but I want to as quickly as possible, get in move the weight and the strength of my body to this foot. So now I bring the other foot forward. I'm almost standing on one leg for a microsecond I'm standing on this leg in the weight is really in the back part of the board in the body, which would be the right hip and then it becomes a rhythm where I'm doing this over and over. So I start with the two feet together. I take my right foot and go in front of my left. That's the first cross step. And then this all happens very quickly. I put all the weight in that right foot now and I bring the left foot around in front of the other now I'm almost back into my regular stance again. But when I string them together, I'll move like this. No, you're going forward and you're in even when I come back when I walked back. I'm still keeping the weight to the back. The only time I go with my weight forward is if the board is stalling too much and I'm almost I can feel that I'm going to fall out of the wave. Then I can put a little bit more weight forward which really like push the nose of the board down and reengage but once the board takes off, if I keep all my weight forward, then the board might start sinking start plowing water. So this is why people struggle with nose riding as they're not quite sure where to put their weight of their body. And again, I encourage you to look at videos of people like Joel Tudor. If you can find videos of Casium Endour or are some of the ladies. I think they do some of the finest cross stepping. There's just something really graceful about their approach and I've never studied this is just observation but I think that the the female body with that lower a little bit lower center of gravity and the way the hips are really helps with this waiting guys have no hips, so we have to kind of push them out a little more and you'll see when you start looking at nose writing pictures, you'll see a lot of times that the forward hip is out toward the nose and that's creates this balance point. If we're leaning forward, we're sort of top heavy it's like a martial arts thing. It's harder to push someone over when they're down low and their knees are bent and they're kind of back. If they're forward and top heavy and if your lower legs ever get locked or bent. That can be that can be really dangerous too. And you'll see really, people that are really good at this their knees are always slightly bent just a little. You want to avoid locking the knees and you just want to stay loose. I think one of the good ways to get really used to cross stepping is like I said earlier, just pick a line. Like here we're on the edge of a rug. Anyone so I can just sort of just follow this and I'm doing it really slowly. But when you're really doing it you have to do it quicker. And in cross dipping, you can take really little baby steps, which is kind of cool and more difficult to do. The more steps you do to the nose, obviously more difficult. Initially when people start doing it, they it's almost like kind of cheating. They'll do like two steps. They do like these really big steps. They jump out really big to get there faster. That's fine for learning. You know, I think initially just to get comfortable. But for example, you know, if you're ever want to get to a level where you're competing professionally, the judge will look at that many steps as sort of cheating. You know, not many people have the goal of trying to be a professional longboard surfer in competition but if you you know if you want a guideline of you know, where do you want to go with your own personal surfing? I think if you're doing four to six steps to the nose, that's that's a good zone to be in. It, it looks and feels good and it's you know it's it's technically a proper nose right. The two step one is is really rushed. And it can actually kind of throw you off because you're almost leaping and jumping on the board. Just kind of disengages the trim line and can make the board a little wobbly, little shaky.
Michael:
Yeah, there's more time when nothing's touching the board.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
Jumping, right. Which is what I've been doing.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
But I've been just like shuffling not even crossed it. Just.
Devon:
Yeah, I mean, shuffling it's effective and it works. You know, there's no
Michael:
You get caught out though. Like if you're halfway through your shuffle and there's a bump at the gym. There's nothing touching the board. So you've gone. Where's the liquid crosstab and you still got that one foot there? Sure. So it makes more technical sense in that regards as well.
Devon:
Yeah, I think it does.
Michael:
And the way you described it is like it's more you're sneaking up to the front. Isn't it? Like you were sneaking try not to make any noise on the floor?
Devon:
Yeah. Yeah. And where I come from, in a lot of people I think appreciate that kind of surfing is in in the the height of the longboard era, which was 1966. Before the short board came along the year net after surfers really valued a polished, stylish approach. It was just you know you can look to a lot of other things gymnastics, diving, you know, ballroom dancing. There's real value in the perfect form, you know, and it wasn't until say something like breakdancing came along. That really changed the way you looked. At something or different types of hip hop dancing, where you're like, Whoa, that's not that sort of elegant find form ballroom dancing or perfect form diving. But it's also but that new form can also be really appreciated. And I think that's what you have a short board surfing, you know, you have Italo Ferreira, who does the craziest aerial maneuvers of the most powerful turns but you don't necessarily equate to the most beautiful style. I mean, that's it is a subjective term that could be stylish to somebody else, but a lot of people it isn't. And then you'd have someone like Connor coffin who's on tour and there's these beautiful sweeping turns that remind us of Tom Curren or Taylor Knox and then you have another type of surfing, which is longboard surfing, you know, and I think they can all be appreciated, but with awkward surfing, what makes it unique is nose riding. And that's the one thing I get questioned on the most is how can I lose write better and so the things I was just describing are helpful. But there's a few other factors I think that are really important to know. The equipment is is a major factor. You could give yourself a serious advantage by getting the right type of board just like with a short board if you want to do errs, there are certain boards that are better at doing errs than others. If you want to catch big waves or tube riding, there's certain boards for that will same for nose riding. And like I described to you board that you would enjoy would be something that's 9-6 to 9-8 for the average size person and it's a single fin typically is the way to go. You can certainly nose write really well. Little side bites, but not as well. And the reason that you want the single fin is it holds better. It's a much deeper fin it sticks much further into the water, which allows when you're out on the very tip of the board. It allows it to be anchored and held in without the tail slipping out unexpectedly. And then you fall on your face you lose your board and called swimming. And the other piece of it that's really just as important is the design of the surfboard itself. In the tail end if you look at any shore board, or most surfboards, they have what's called edge and the edge gives you release which is why those boards turn so easily and so well. On a nose rider if you take that edge off, what happens is the water comes up and over that rail and sort of hugs it. It's almost like imagine two little hands holding onto the tail of your board while you're out on the nose on the tip. You know it's like being on a a seesaw in your ad on one end, and there's something counterbalancing there's a hydrodynamic effect that happens with the way the water runs over the rail, that if you had edge the water would come off the rail in sheath off of it, which would cause release it would drop out because it doesn't have that the water comes up and over. And it's like hugging it really and that allows you to do those crazy nose rides where you see surfers where there's the front foot or two of the board there's there's no water underneath. It's like they're just levitating. And that's part of the dynamic thing about nose riding is with the single fin and what's going on with that rail. And where you position the board. You get one of the coolest feelings in surfing, which is to be out on the front of your board. And it's like you're out on a diving board. There's nothing underneath you and when you can get to that moment that level and do that sort of nose riding. It's it's right up there with to Bing I'm sure yeah, let's say to writings, the ultimate but I would say hanging 10s Right behind it, you know in terms of what what feels good like well, I can't believe I did that. So with the equipment if you are looking to nose right better. If you currently have a longboard and it has side bites or it has edge on it. You can nose right that board, for sure. But you're going to be doing more what I would call Hain five which is where the front foots up there, the back foot, maybe a foot or foot half behind you. That's a really nice feeling. But if you're seeing surfers they're doing that or they're hanging 10 And there's elevation under the board and they're high trim speed hauling ass and kind of arching it out there. You're going to have to get this other type of word of describing. And the last piece of it aside from the equipment is going to be positioning. So there's a little misconception that you just run up to the front of the board. It's just going to start you know, sort of hydroplaning or elevating out of the water doesn't quite work that way. You can those ride on the mushy flat part of the wave. But at best you'll be doing one of those hand fives in. You'll notice that the whole time you're doing it. You're almost just sort of plowing water the water sort of gushing out the side normal sometimes shooting up in your face. It's pretty messy nose riding. What you really want to do is take off a little deeper and you want to place your board high up into the pocket into the really steep part of the wave. You honestly think gosh, I should stay away from that part of the wave. Because it's risky. I'm going to eat shit. The board's gonna slide out. But the way that the hydrodynamics of these nose writer boards is they want you to stuff be stuffed right up into the pocket, high in the wave face. So let's imagine we're on a waste highway, maybe stomach high. Let's pretend it's Malibu, or a wave that breaks like that. You can tell by looking at the way there's the curling part. There's going to be the part behind there which is just whitewater in the flats. And then in front of the curl is a flatter part of the wave that will form into the curl. So this is all about timing. And you have to sort of like when you're backdooring a tube if you're looking for too broad. You can get barreled on the takeoff. Or you can paddle a little deeper and you see that the barrel is just a little bit further down the line. And you tuck in and kind of what we call backdoor the barrel. Those routing is a little bit similar. You want a back door a section almost where you want to anticipate it. So you want to look for that section where it's going to be really steep. And, you know, as we know longboard you can get into the wave very early. So before the waves even broke, you can look down the line and say wow, I think the waves really going to stand up you know, 2030 feet down the way. I'm going to paddle in and I'm going to start walking to the nose before we even get to that section. And I'm going I'm anticipating that it's going to jack up a bowl right there. And by the time I get to the front of the board, you're perfectly timing the section so that the board is in the high curling tight part of the wave and you're on the front end of the board. And it's kind of like that idea of sending it it's like okay, I have faith. If I'm going to backdoor to to I'm anticipating that I'm going to set this up, get in the barrel and exit cleanly, cleanly. But to do that with the nose ride, some would say it's similar to hacking in the air. You know, I pumped down the line. And if I have faith in my skills, I throw my board body into the air. But I know and I'm basically telling myself and communicating with my body. I'm going to learn this thing sustained with nose riding, you have to go into the nose ride. Knowing that holy shit this is kind of sketchy. It's really steep here. But you just say no, I'm going to stand up here. You have to tell yourself that. I'm going to stand up here and I'm going to pull this off. Where a lot of people struggle with nose riding, is they walk up kind of locked in timid and thinking to myself oh my god, I don't want to fall. I don't want to fall. I don't want to fall. What happens you fall because you're so worried about not falling. You look at people that knows write really well. It looks so effortless. It's because they're they're really letting go and they've done the work to get there the work is all the balance stuff you can do in your living room. You can do it on the floor with no balance board. You can get something like the indo board or some product like it. If you're crafty, you can just make your own and you can literally get a piece of wood and a ball and screw it onto the bottom of it and you being the physio business. You've seen all the different trainers that are out there. Anything that gets your feet and ankles and calf talking to one another is good training. There's a there's a lot of cool things that you can work on yourself. You don't need to hire a coach or professional. I think the basic balance training is.
Michael:
Going to add to that just quickly as most people think that the goal is to keep the feet still like even if you just stand on one leg with your eyes closed if people start getting worried about all the twitching in the foot, but the actual goal of the balance whether you're standing on one foot or whether you're standing on a balance board is to keep your head neck and shoulders still and allow your foot to make those final adjustments.
Devon:
Yeah, I agree with that. When I was a kid, my mom said don't flail your arms around. My mom was a surfer. And I didn't really understand that. I thought maybe it was because it just didn't look good or whatever, but there's a real function to it. So if the adjustments are happening in your ankles and your knees and your feet, those are kind of like your shock absorber. And if you can leave your upper body, maybe a little more quiet. It's less erratic adjustments need to be made because if you move and flail your arms around, it kind of throws it throws you off. That's why I think people really go out longboard surfing, so beautiful and it's you see the top surfers as they're walking to the front. Their hands aren't going up and down and moving all over the place. The hands are usually low and kind of near the waist. It's like anybody that's you got a Cirque silay or the you know any of those people that do the high wire acts their their upper body movements are really minimal and subtle. And a lot of what's happening is from the waist down, you know and it is a tightrope act in a way but fortunately his surfboard is 23 inches wide. Usually, you know there's a lot of room there. But I think it's what's important is to understand that it isn't one thing that's going to help you be the best nose rider. It's understanding how all the things we just talked about work together so the balance the toes, the ankles, wake everything up before even go surfing before I even get on the board. You can literally do this in the parking lot or on the say and you don't even need a balance trainer. I love what you said about just standing on one foot is a really great way to just wake up for any kind of surfing and then hopefully you have a board that is is in the genre that's described. And then you need to have faith in the positioning like you really have to believe that I can do this is as silly as that sounds, you know, sounds like something you know Tony Robbins or somebody would say but it works you know the psychology of, of faith that you've got the equipment and you've done some level of training to get there. Then you then you start getting more comfortable. Once you've nailed a nose ride in a really critical part of the wave. You understand that? It's It's almost easier than doing it in a flat part of the wave. You trained to make something out of nothing on the flat part of the wave. You're doing all this work. You're trying to get the board to do all the work. Let the wave do the work the wave can do. Like if you think about other types of surfing you do in short boarding. You can do just about any maneuver when you have speed. It's amazing like how hard you can hit the lip or how good of a cutback you can do when you have speed. You know when that's the same of longboard surfing, speed is your friend you know you want the board trimming at the highest most optimal speed it can be. So to do that. You don't you don't want to be low in the way if you're too low in the way if you're not in the energy pocket. You get a little bit mid face and higher. You notice the board starts taking off and hauling us that's the time when you want to start rocking up to the nose. It may feel like a time where you should get in safety mode, and hunker down and go oh man, I got to get around this section. But I would say watch a lot of videos go on YouTube. Go on Instagram think about the things I've said and now look at them happening. When you watch people doing it. I think that's really what's helpful. It's surfing today, where I didn't have a lot of things to watch. I could dig up a few old movies like the end of the summer but I didn't have all this education at my fingertips. So much training can be done just have visuals.
Michael:
Yeah.
Devon:
You know?
Michael:
Yeah. One thing that helped me a lot on that note is not just watching the surfer, because that's part of it for sure. But you want to watch. When did they start walking to the nose? What was the way of doing when they made that decision, rather than just watching them and also watching what's happening with we also focus on watching the surfer in the in the front foot of the board. But what's happening with the rest of the eight foot of the board and the wave, right and once you start watching what the way the way the wave is literally hugging the most of the surfboard and just encapsulating it and then you're just along for the ride.
Devon:
Yeah
Michael:
There's the faith thing, like walk up to the nose and trust that the board's gonna stick into the wave and that the waves gonna push you along.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
And then just make just keep your head neck and shoulders still in let your feet to the adjusting and enjoy.
Devon:
Yeah. Another thing too that I've personally found helpful is where your hands are and what they're doing. If you look at Tom Curren obviously the greatest surfer of all time. Look at Tom's hands. And it's almost like he's communicating with his surroundings with the hands. You'll notice that where they the wrists are bent, but the tops of his hands come more toward his arms. He doesn't bend his hands and in there up and out. In the hands will be kind of in plane with the wave. And there's like the space between the wave and his hands always when he's doing a bottom turn. When he's doing a cutback in the front hand is always aiming where he wants to go a little bit. The backhand is sort of like a stabilizer. The backhand is always kind of close to the body. And it's like a placement and the front hand is like a guide in when your nose riding. Try to find videos or photos of myself. You'll see what I'm talking about with the hands. I'm usually doing something with the hands it is not just because it looks cool. I mean that is bonus. It does look kind of cool. But there's a function to it. That helps anchor and settle in my body into a space that's really comfortable and in. I don't know secure is the right word that I'm looking for. But you just kind of locked in and it feels right. And it it's almost like if someone came up to try to push you on your shoulder to knock you off. That position I'm in is almost like a martial arts position. I'm like, I'm not going anywhere. You know, and that helps when you hit a chop or you hit a bump. Or maybe there's a surfer paddling in your way that you didn't expect. Now you need to back pedal off the board, but maintain control. I think what happens easily is when your nose rotting is something happens that distracts you. And then before you know it, your arms look like you're rolling up the windows and you're in survival mode trying not to fall and kill someone or yourself and so I think when you have that, that hand placement, again, people will say oh, that's just posing or it looks like you're just trying to look cool, but I think there's functional hand placement that ties this all together. You know, that's sort of the last piece of it to me. So, I don't know, I hope some of that info was helpful.
Michael:
Yeah, that's awesome. It's all in the details. And neurologically speaking if the hand is ready to catch a ball, that's when it's wakening the nervous system up. If your hands over like this, it's shutting it down. Literally.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
So when you got when you'd lie in bed asleep. Are you like ready to catch a ball? No, you like, you’re soft and everything's down and you might, you know, kind of nestle into a fetal position because you rest and relax. That's and then when you're like this, you're ready to catch a ball.
Devon:
Right. Makes sense. So.
Michael:
There's also an interplay between the foot and the hand as well. Especially even short boarding you go up you want to pull your wrists right back.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
And reacts, it helps your feet to dorsi flex at the same time as well. And this is the spatial awareness feeling from the hands. I mean, your hands are the other the most alive part of your body them all your sense. There's so much there's way more nerve endings and your hands and your feet and your lips than anywhere else in the body. So feeling spatial awareness, the way the winds moving through your hands, getting even just getting close to the wave, your closest sense of spatial awareness.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
And of course, it looks better.
Devon:
Yeah. There's, Have you ever talked to Brad Gerlach?
Michael:
No, not yet.
Devon:
I don't know if he's done with it. But he's been working on this wave key. And I feel like some of what we just described, it's gotta be what he's working on. Because you'll see I've just seen limited things and he's described it to me, but where the hands are moving with the body, you know, there's something to it there. That's it. Like I don't have any training and I don't understand why the stuffs happening. I just, I'm describing that through just sort of the natural process of doing it that become aware of that that is happening. But there is a deeper connection and understanding and explaining kind of like what you were just getting into and the physiological sense of what what's happening there with that connection. And when I think when you're aware of that, it helps you helps your technique. If you're, if you really appreciate style, it's also again, it's a bonus, but it's nice to have an understanding of that those things are working together. And the end result is for me if it if it feels good, it's certainly going to look good, but a lot of the style stuff is just feels nice, you know? So styles an interesting conversation because some people I think, would argue that there's too much emphasis on it and you know, hey, surfing should be about freedom of expression. And of course it should be and it should be about explosive maneuvers should be about progress, progression, whatever that means. On a personal note, I've just always appreciated beautiful surfing, no matter what decade it's from. If I saw someone surfing in the 30s or the 1980s or 90s you just it's you immediately see it. Like I saw a clip the other day of Margot Brendan Marginson it was like a really well known
Michael:
Yeah.
Devon:
Australian surfer.
Michael:
One of my favorites.
Devon:
And I don't know if it was the NSWL or somebody put up a clip as as they're going into the bills of it. They're kind of going back in the archive and looking at you know, state of the art surf style certain points in time and I was like, man, we could use some of that. Surfing that that style that he has, he just don't see it as much. Imagine taking what Margo is doing in mixing it with some more like he tillow where they can do these crazy maneuvers. But they're putting it together with this beautiful style where they still are drawing out these lines and the body and hand placement. It's it's hard to articulate it. It's just like really good music or really good wine. You may not be he may not have a sophisticated palate. He may not have the vocabulary to describe the music you're listening to and why it's fantastic. But a lot of these things, we collectively know it when we we see it, you know you feel it or you taste it. And I think there's a whole discussion there that you could go down one day about style.
Michael:
I've asked a few people about it and ask you how can you define style in one sentence?
Devon:
Umm, I mean to me, style, gosh, it's style for me when I when I pull up to a surf break and I look a check the waves. Style is an individual's way of to be of communicating surfing. It's a backup. I don't like the way I describe that. It's funny because I never I've never just really had to think about or describe style style. His style is just somebodies personal expression of surfing. So when I look. A lot of times people serve styles parallel their personalities. You know, I've seen really radical individuals who are either outspoken, like to party, really, really extroverts and I know those people and I see their surfing styles is oftentimes pretty radical. And I know individuals that are really soft, spoken, understated and have similar styles. They're just is really kind of quiet and smooth. That's not always the case. But it's interesting that a lot of the times the way we express ourselves surfing can draw a lot of similarities to our personalities or the way we move on land. It's interesting that that's very unscientific. It's just my own personal observation.
Michael:
It's a very political way of answering the question, because because the thing is when we asked what is a good style? We’re asking you to judge someone's style on you, because everyone has style. But we're implying that some style. Some people's styles are better than others.
Devon:
Yeah, it's style is extremely subjective. And I think it's it's as difficult to answer as what, you know, what is good music, and music is a really challenging thing for people.
Michael:
I agree. But on that note, I mean, music is a great analogy because you can have a style of music that you don't like. But if it's good music, you have to admit it's somewhat stylish. And I think a better word, and I think in terms of I think styles are the right word that I'm trying to get. I think perhaps rhythm flow and Grace are words that better articulate the style that we're judging. Because the difference between a mute you mentioned it alone is so dynamic and the performance surfing is off the charts. But you can you can have it's a low doing do an aerial maneuver. And then you can have John John do the same maneuver to the same amplitude John John just did with more flow. There was less Stop, stop.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
It was more graceful.
Devon:
Yes.
Michael:
That's the short boring thing over with in terms of longboarding I mean, flow rhythm, flow and rhythm are the words for me that articulate what you're looking for and style in a better way because that's what the waves doing. It's flowing in. It can't. It's water. You pour water into a cup. It takes the shape of the cup. It can't there's nothing else water can do. So when a wave hits shallow water it has to be rhythmic and fluid and yeah, this different speeds of that different styles of waves.
Devon:
Yeah. I wonder I'm curious that I don't know much I brought up dancing earlier but what I just always sort of think of longboard surfing and dancing in a way ballroom dancing, all this different swing. There's form and I'm trying to imagine if some if someone did those styles of dance and kind of what could be perceived as a bit erratic or not polished. They don't get work, they wouldn't get work and they wouldn't get rewarded. In surfing. We seem to be more flexible with that. Not always I think the majority of people really appreciate surfing that's smooth and polished and flowing and graceful. And it seems like the perfect approach in surfing when you're looking at a style versus the maneuvers is when the come together seamlessly. So John is a perfect example of doing these really progressive maneuvers. And the reason he came on the scene and we loved him so much was that effortless style. And he comes from the skateboarding world where that's really valued. The skateboarding culture is super into style and all these maneuvers coming together with flow and grace and feeling quite seamless. It's interesting with style when you look at a lot, you know, this isn't a nationalistic thing, but because there's an easy example of Brazilian style surfing. A lot of folks will point to Brazilians as not having the best style but having really, the most progressive maneuvers. But it's funny that even within the Brazilian community, there are a few of the Brazilians that have a grace and a flow that breaks away from that. So why is that? Why is that happening? We don't in the shortboard world, though, just to be clear, we don't. Style is not part of the criteria. Yet. It is, however, in longboard surfing, so I recently accepted a role to be the tour director for the NSWL for longboard. Surfing. It's hard traditionally, it's had one event a year, and that determines the world champion. So if you're having a great day, you could be the world champion that weekend. The obvious flaw to that is are you really truly the champion on one day? Well, technically you're by the ASP or NSWL but I'd say in the grander scheme of things from a philosophical standpoint. No, it's not as strong as if you were tested over a period of time, which would be a number of events. I think the Men's and Women's Championship tour has a dozen or so a year. You don't need that money for longboard surfing, but a couple would be nice. So now, this year, we've introduced four which is going to be awesome. So but in the criteria for longboard surfing, style is part of the criteria, which is really interesting. It's the only type of surfing within the NSWL. You know, the big wave surfing doesn't have that. As far as I know, it could be wrong. Airboard doesn't have that either. They have a things. What does it speed power flow is that that's more of the focus but it would be really interesting if style came into it. And it is up for discussion. You know, and I think it'd be interesting if the law in any way shape or form longboard surfing, could or would influence that decision that that remains to be seen. But it's really apparent when you're judging longboard surfing that the style grace and control. Those are words that are used in in the criteria. And if those boxes aren't getting checked, you can't reward someone is highly, but I love it. They're in there because I think that's I think that's what people want to see. They want to see. Really beautiful, stylish, Polish surfing, but at the same time while they're doing that doing things that are mind blowing, that are extremely difficult. Hanging 10 in the pocket in basically the wave barreling on your back, and you're hanging 10 it’s pretty awesome. Just as it's awesome to see someone doing a 54 in 8 feet off the top of the wave.
Michael:
Yeah, what's the this they're in the criteria flow? Maybe they should flow speed power?
Devon:
Yes.
Michael:
Which the waiting sequence?
Devon:
Yeah. So I mean, there's some work to be done there. But again, not everyone's too concerned about it. I think that a lot of surfing fans that are in the more futuristic progressive mindset. They just want to see futuristic progressive moves and not let style get in the way of that necessarily.
Michael:
Yeah.
Devon:
I don't I don't agree with that. But hey, that's what's great about the world. It's full of opinions and points of view, right?
Micahel:
Yeah, yeah. Well, you if you're, if you're a short border in your 20s you're not. Grace doesn't really into your vocabulary a lot of the time.
Devon:
No, probably not listening to classical music. You probably don't really care too much about fine wine, but you know, a good beer and a burger will do
Micahel:
Exactly, exactly. What's the best surfing advice you've ever had?
Devon:
Umm, the best surfing advice I've ever had would be similar to what we were talking about with those rights surfing which was you're never going to be a great news writer by trying to do it where you are, which is to foreign for the pocket. Tom Wagner, who is about 10 years older than me, he makes boards in Australia. He's an American that moved over there and married a local gal. He's based in New so he makes these beautiful old boards. And he said, you need to take off deeper and I took off deep he's like No, you need to take off deeper. And he pushed me deeper and deeper and that was a game changer. I went from being an okay nose rider. Just kind of okay, too, pretty good. And he gave me the advice that you just need to believe that the board is going to do the work, have faith, which is what we were talking about earlier. So I'm passing that on anyone who's listening here. Thanks. To Tom Wagner. It was a really simple thing. You know, but sometimes it's the most simple things that can transform their surfing experience.
Micahel:
What's the worst surfing advice you've ever had?
Devon:
Let's see the worst surfing advice. Man, that's a good question. I think the worst surfing advice I had was recently I don't want to name the surf break but it's a pretty heavy surf spot. And someone gave me advice on where to paddle out. And I had been watching for about a half hour and I had my own idea of where I should paddle out. And they said no, no, no, don't paddle out there. Had to paddle out this other spot and it was the worst advice. I ended up getting dry docked, scraping by knuckles, the bottom of the board of the reef and getting blasted back up on the beach and embarrassed in front of a bunch of people. That was horrible. And I don't think the person gave me that advice on purpose. To for that to happen. I think they meant for me to go out there. But they didn't know a whole lot more about when we were paddling out that I did. And so whenever I've gone against my own instincts, I've regretted it. And my instincts told me to pat it on at this other part of the break.
Michael:
That's good advice. Trust your instincts.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
Do you ever run a short board?
Devon:
Yes. Not very often. I rode a short board from age seven to about 14. And then after that I got really, really into longboard surfing. But it's rare that I run a contemporary short board,
Michael:
Which is a bit of question if it's double overhead and barreling what sort of body on.
Devon:
I ride mid links which are not short boards. So my favorite range is this sort of 610 to seven Oh, you could call them an egg but I don't really call them eggs but the board's I ride are somewhere between a shortboard and an egg.
Michael:
So it's kind of like a step up. Although..
Devon:
No, it's more leans more toward it. You could maybe call a hype hybrid, which is it looks like an egg in terms of the outline. But the rail rocker is very modern. It has a hard sort of tucked edge has a little bit of rocker. It's not too flat. But the rails are quite what I would refer to as foil. I mean they're really finely tuned pretty thin. And that, to me is the perfect surfboard. I like that more than longboard surfing, if I can ride that every day I would but we live in Southern California, it's not overhead that often. So my rule of thumb is if it's under shoulder high right along board, once it's over shoulder high head high and above. I ride these mid like boards. I do like fish boards as well.
Michael:
Yeah. If you had to choose five surfboards for the rest of your life, what five boards would there be?
Devon:
The first one would be an 11 foot skip fry. It's called the Eagle and it's a big board. I don't recommend people ride them. They're really hard to ride. And they're what I call a black belt form of surfing they're really crazy rails or they're just really hard to ride I love I love the challenge the next one would be a 10 foot nose rider by Thomas Bexon. I really like his boards a lot. The model is called the keeper. The other board I would ride is the nine nine Keeper which is just a smaller version of it. I know that sounds silly to have to have the same boards but those are the best long boards I've ever written bar none. The other board I would have would be like an eight foot or an eight six gun. Something you would ride and like triple overhead type waves and I like to ride them with us. Two plus one single fin. The middle finger to be six and a half or seven inches and the side bites would be three and a half. And so that's four boards right? And then the other one would be a 610 hybrid sort of Egg Board which would cover my needs and just about any any area and that would be the it doesn't really matter who shapes it's just that style aboard so it's a lot of big foam boards
Michael:
The right the right board for the right conditions, right.
Devon:
Yeah. I think surfing is in a really awesome place. A lot of so I'm 45 a lot of people my age and older thing surfing is ruined, and then it's over. And, you know, it depends what lens you're looking at it through. We're never going back to what it was in the 70s You know, it was an amazing thing then, and not many people did it and it was really special. And I think if you're in the fishing, you can appreciate what it's like to go to a fishing hole that no one knows about. And in, there's something special about only a friend or two that you tell about it and bring them to it after they've kind of built your trust and that's that's how surfing was for a long time. And it is I have compassion for people that are frustrated with what it is today. I'm among them. I'm frustrated too. But I've in recent years I've shifted the way I've looked at it I've I really love surfing and I don't want to stop and I've put more of an emphasis on that. It is something that we can learn to share together. In not being overly romantic about it, but having a reasonable attitude. about it. You know, just two days ago, a beginner took off pretty badly right in front of me. It was a wave I'd waited for for a while. It was a frustrating moment, but I didn't. In the old days I probably would have yelled or something you cook whatever the things you are you do. But that doesn't work. Like what was what's it's difficult because I don't want to be the police and I don't want to be everyone's surf instructor but I know that I'm good enough and I'm going to go out and get another wave. And there's another day and more waves more waves come they always do. So in that moment. I'm just learning right I talked to people and just give them a heads up hey, you know he's trying to say something encouraging. Like it's awesome out here to tell you to try to not come at someone like you're ready to just tell them off because as soon as you do that no one listens. And they're going to be defiant and who knows what could happen. You could be talking to someone who is an ex war veteran who's been through hell, and they're just maybe they're out there as part of their therapy. Now you're just kind of setting them back again. So I talk to them and say hey, you know, this is the writing the most critical part of the wave. It's, it's awesome. You're learning what I think could be really helpful for you is see this part of the wave over here and if you work on kind of getting the basics down, and when you're ready to come out to this part before you take off. It just look over your shoulder. So you know I hate for you to get run into the vice versa for me to get hurt. And you come at it reasonably they go oh, well, thanks. You know, and nine times out of ten It's a pretty good experience that I don't go home feeling like shit that person does it. And so I think what's good about surfing today is that we have more information and more knowledge. There's a lot of really good things. You know what? We've lost the year you're only going to surf with two or three people I mean that that was lost, honestly, decades ago. What I like about surfing today is we have more knowledge we have much better equipment in the surf, the surfboards are so much better. I wish I had the surfboards that I have today. I wish I had them 25 years ago. And I just think in general we especially if you live in America, this is like one of the most amazing there's so many things that we hate about this country and people say bad stuff about it. But look around you like we're in the greatest time in human civilization. I mean, we can dial up anything on our phone, and it can be in our front door in two seconds. We are going to die from simple wound. There's I mean, I could go on forever. There's so many amazing things but we still go to the negative we'll still talk about how fucked things are and I think surfing gets pulled into that, you know, surfing gets pulled into like it's worse than ever. We've ruined everything. It's like, no, that's not true. You know, it's changed. But on the horizon, we have wave pools. I was really against wave pools. I might still be I don't know. But there's a lot of things on the horizon that are going to enhance our lives and make our lives better. The world and our communities is better because of surfing. You know, am I worried about foil boards coming through the lineup and saw me in half? Yes, I am. But I was worried about subs. I thought subs were gonna kill everybody. They didn't. We're still here. The world didn't implode. We somehow managed our way through it. We're going to manage our way through foils. We're going to manage our way through the next things which might just simply be ourselves. There's just a lot more of us. But I really I'm getting a little tired of the discussions in the parking lot and friends and everything about how bad it is. And I'm choosing to look at the things that are really great about it. And that is helping my life because I work a lot and so having still having surfing is an important piece to the whole puzzle of my own life. And I think people listening probably feel the same way and so the challenge for us is finding the joy in embracing the changes without losing our shit, you know, and it's it's a test and the way that we do it is to have just a bit more compassion that who we liked. We don't Are we that special that only we can enjoy this. That's kind of crazy that we are led to believe that and I'm among the people who have thought that over time that I deserve this more than you do. That's really quite horrible.
Michael:
It's almost your first instinct as a surfer.
Devon:
Yes.
Michael:
Because you will seeking solace.
Devon:
Yes, yes.
Michael:
But it's like it's it's still there. You just have to travel. Just take two plane rides and hire a car and go to where there's no one and you'll find perfect waves on tropical islands to yourself. You're like if you're willing to travel, it's there. You can't pull up the first point and go over 60 people and.
Devon:
It’s not going away, right changing it. You know, the only thing you can do, honestly, is manage events and experiences in a one on one basis. Like you can't manage the whole lineup. So if you can, you know if you have a perceived issue with someone who just kind of has your number like two or three times, they're riding in front of you and just sculpt them and say, Hey, I see we're going for the same waves can we work it out that, you know, when I'm coming down and like pay, maybe give me the break and move on to someone else, you know, like you have to it sucks but you have to kind of just deal with things on an individual basis and try to form these newfound alliances that are literally a day to day day to day basis. And it's hard, you know, it's really hard to learn how to kind of embrace and exist within this new world order of crowds. You know, it's like because the alternative is to get really angry and to quit the leap.
Michael:
It's the wrong if you want to sit wave at first point to yourself, then you have to see that wave before anyone else sees it and you have to pull in deeper than anyone else. So essentially, the bigger surfer who spent more time in the water looking at the details in learning how to drop in later is going to get the wave. Sure. It's like if it's if you go out there as a beginner intermediate expecting just to get a sit wave at first point then it's like you're a football player, and you turn up to an NFL game and think you can just join in.
Devon:
Yeah, and that's the challenge because the way surfing was introduced to people in different way, like a different way. Now it's quite accessible. Everybody's a surfer, you know, they you get those quizzes. What do you do and check the surfing box quite easily. And the barrier of entry is really low. And before it was quite hard, nobody would teach you tell you anything. You'd come down the ocean, you know literally had your aspect to you wash you back to the beach. And not one person out there is going to tell you how to paddle out or what to do is like they'd look and laugh Good luck. But now this sort of school surf shops are so much info. But the one piece that's still hard for people to get is the the cultural norm that that's where people might my generation and older. I'm generalizing here, but that's where we struggle is. You go to a place like Malibu or any any break like it and you just look at the lineup and there's 100 people and 20 of them know what's going on. 80 of them don't. And you're still hoping that they would understand the cultural new norm but it's it's so beyond what we can manage. I just I'm like I'm I don't have the answers. I don't know what it is it's, I quit or I get super angry and getting, you know, brought to the edge of a fistfight all the time, which that that's how a lot of people are dealing with it. That doesn't end well either. I've seen people go home in the sheriff's cars. The only way I tried to do like I said is on a case by case basis. So they go well, you don't on the ocean. It's anyone's turn. I'm like well that I see where you're coming from but there are cultural norms out here just like their land. You know, and I just say simple things. Like if you go to the deli or you go to the coffee shop and there's no numbers. How do you know whose turn it is? Why just you know, that person got there before it's the same thing. You know, there's spatial awareness like you just caught away, you came out and you went by everybody. Sit down and look behind you and realize, wow, there's a dozen people here, who are up next, have the wherewithal to allow some waves to go by that spatial awareness. That's the same as if you went to the deli or the coffee shop and there was no queue. You kind of know what's going on and it's the same thing. And they go Oh, really? Yeah, but yeah, it's something
Micahel:
Yeah, well, if you want uncrowded ways, don't so first point go to Zuma. Like the ways I'm going to be as good but.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
You'll find solace.
Devon:
Absolutely.
Michael:
In this I get I sit by myself almost every day in Los Angeles just because I know where to go. So in I'm willing to maybe walk five minutes from a car park rather than three seconds. There's, there's lots of little things you can do to.
Devon:
How dare you take personal responsibility? Yeah, you have to take responsibility. And it just the whole like complaining about how bad it is and just gave up a little while ago because it didn't change the outcome was still the same, like those people are still there. You know, so, again, you just try to work it out with people individually. If you want to serve first point all the time, you'll get to know the regular people, they'll get to know you. And they'll stop dropping it on you but they'll just drop it on the other new people. But like the point of all this is though, I'm quite excited about surfing today. I think there are a lot of really amazing things that are happening and to be freshly turned 45 and still be excited. I didn't I never predicted that when I was a kid. You know, you just sort of figured at some point you'll just be kind of fade out of it. And honestly, a lot of my friends and I grew up with how there's not many of us left. But I saw a drill tutor the other day and its like, man, we're still doing this. Like we're still surfing at a high level and we're still probably more stoked, like honestly. We would have never imagined being this excited about surfing and still looking at design still finding surfboards that can help us improve our surfing. You know, at age 38 or 9 I found a surfboard from Tyler had Zika and that transformed me it was another shift, you know where I didn't know that I could do certain things on a longboard. And that led me into a whole other path of going deeper and deeper. And even to just a few weeks ago coming up with an idea in my head with Thomas Beck's and asking him to try something. And he made himself on the code. This is pretty cool. You know, we got some really good results out of it. Some things it did better and some of it didn't. So there's a little bit of back, backup off some of the things and go deeper on some others.
Michael:
Very cool.
Devon:
But yeah, I think getting really excited about your equipment and understanding what it does. It's good for your surfing, you know, and there's a lot of really good board builders and brands out there that offer a lot of solutions. So if you have an idea, reach out to your shaper and ask them about it. You know, find out if that's the right way to go that back and forth is really engaging draws you into surfing even more.
Michael:
The future's bright yeah all right. Thank you so much for your time.