033: Surfers are the Worst
Show Notes
Do you love surfing — or are you trapped by it?
In this refreshingly raw and philosophical conversation, Scott Bass unpacks decades of surf culture obsession, the emotional highs and lows of wave chasing, and the identity crisis that comes when surfing defines too much of who we are. If you've ever questioned your relationship with the ocean or the ego in the lineup, this one's for you.
Learn how Scott balances reverence for surfing with brutal honesty about its downsides.
Discover the difference between surfing as a craft, a sport, and a spiritual practice.
Hear why style may be the most underrated element of great surfing — and how it reflects who we are.
Hit play now to hear a candid conversation that might change how you think about your surfing, your surfboards, and your sense of self.
Scott is the former editor of Surfer Magazine and now currently hosts The Boardroom Podcast -
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-boardroom-podcast/id1387534637
Co-hosts SPIT Podcast - http://www.spitpodcast.com/
And hosts the The Boardroom Show every year https://boardroomshow.com/
In this episode: What is Style? Why Surfers are the WORST. The origin of surf podcasting, is surfing a sport? Why do we surf? + More. Are you the master of your surfing or is surfing your master?
Key Points
Scott discussed his background and how he started surfing at age 12 after moving to Del Mar, California.
They discussed the spiritual and introspective aspects of surfing, and how it allows one to be present in the moment.
Scott shared his view that surfing is not a sport according to his criteria, but rather an athletic endeavor.
They analyzed the importance of style and fluidity in surfing, citing surfers like Rob Machado and Dave Rastovich as exemplars.
Scott explained how he started the Surf Talk Radio podcast out of frustration with the print-focused mindset at Surfer Magazine.
They discussed the lack of true surf journalism due to the incestuous nature of the surf industry and its aversion to criticism.
Scott described the boardroom show as an event celebrating surfboards and their cultural significance in the surf industry.
They explored the relationship between surfing and life, and how surfing can be a selfish pursuit that shapes one's identity.
Scott shared his perspective on the dark side of surfing, including drug use and self-centeredness, which he believes should be acknowledged.
Outline
Early Life and Introduction to Surfing
Scott Bass was born in Scottsdale, Arizona and moved frequently due to their father's Air Force career, living in England, Las Vegas, Washington D.C., and North Carolina before settling in San Diego at age 12.
Scott had two older brothers and played traditional sports like football and baseball as a child, though they weren't particularly skilled at baseball.
After moving to Del Mar, California at age 12, Scott discovered surfing, starting with skateboarding which naturally led to an interest in surfing due to the connection between the two sports and their media coverage.
First Surfboard and Appeal of Surfing
Scott's first surfboard was a used, beat-up board, but the first board they were truly excited about was a Craig Hollingsworth board bought from Nectar Surf Shop in Solana Beach.
Surfing is described as having many layers that make it appealing, including the connection with nature, the primal aspect of entering the food chain, and the spiritual moments of gratitude and introspection while in the water.
Surfing can be whatever one wants it to be - from a primal, competitive pursuit to a relaxing, social activity, depending on one's mood and equipment choice.
Psychology and Nature of Surfing
Entering the animal kingdom and food chain through surfing creates an unconscious invigoration from surviving the experience.
The psychology of the lineup is fascinating, with different surfers approaching it competitively or casually, sometimes shifting between the two within a single session.
Surfing is argued not to be a true sport, but rather an athletic endeavor, defined by scoring points, being defended, not wearing formal attire, and not being subjectively judged.
Competitive surfing fails to meet these criteria due to its subjective judging system.
Differences Between Surfing and Traditional Sports
Surfing differs from traditional sports in terms of structure, etiquette, and relatability to non-participants.
Style is one of the most important aspects of surfing, likened to dancing on a wave.
Fluidity is essential to good style, with surfers like Rob Machado, Craig Anderson, and Tom Curren cited as examples of excellent style.
The ability to read and connect with the wave is crucial for maintaining style and fluidity.
Having good style is ultimately more important than technical proficiency in determining a great surfer.
Evolution of Surfboard Design
Surfboard design has evolved from single fins to modern performance shortboards, influencing surfing techniques.
In California, performance shortboards are often not the best equipment for most spots, leading to a shift towards more versatile designs.
Choosing the right board for the conditions is emphasized, quoting Mickey Munoz: 'There's no such thing as perfect waves, just the perfect board for the conditions.'
Selfish Aspects of Surfing and Industry Critique
The selfish and ego-driven aspects of surfing are acknowledged, along with personal struggles with these tendencies.
There is a critique of the lack of true surf journalism due to the insular nature of the surf industry and its reluctance to address controversial topics.
The drug culture in surfing is touched upon, referencing Chas Smith's book 'Cocaine and Surfing' and the industry's attempts to gloss over these aspects.
Surfing has shaped life decisions in limiting ways, described as 'horribly self-centered' and 'extremely myopic.'
Career in Surf Media
They worked at Surfer Magazine from 1997 to 2009 as an editor and writer.
They started talking about surfing on the radio in the early 2000s, leading to the podcast 'Down the Line.'
They co-host the 'Spit' podcast with David Lee Scales and recently launched the 'Boardroom Show' podcast.
Frustrations with the print-focused mentality at Surfer Magazine in the early 2000s were discussed, along with efforts to push for more online and multimedia content.
The Boardroom Show and Surf Culture
They direct the Boardroom Show, an annual surf industry event bringing together surfboard manufacturers and celebrating surfboard culture.
They emphasize the importance of surfboards in surf culture, describing them as 'the philosophical icon of enduring youth' and crucial to the storytelling of surfing history.
The show honors shapers and aims to preserve the significance of surfboards beyond mere commodities.
Personal Growth and Perspective on Surfing
Personal growth and the need to balance passion for surfing with mature, considerate behavior are candidly discussed.
They reflect on how life has taught them to be less selfish in their approach to surfing and to let go of surfing as their primary identity.
The challenge of maintaining a balanced perspective on professional surfers as athletes versus role models is touched upon.
Transcription
Scott Bass
The surfboard, the philosophical icon of enduring youth. Where I live, the car I drive, how I dress, the way I talk. Everything's been dictated by one thing. The pursuit of riding waves. It's horribly sad. It's horribly self-centered. It's extremely myopic, as I mentioned. It's immature. And it's shackling. It's a ball and chain. I want to be rid of this thing. Liberate me, Lord. Let me go to Indiana and enjoy.
Michael Frampton
The guest for today's show is Scott Bass. Scott was an editor and writer at Surfer Magazine from 1997 to 2009. In the early 2000s, Scott started talking on the radio about surfing. That turned into Down the Line, a surfing podcast. And currently, Scott is co-hosting Spit, a Spit podcast with David Lee Scales. He's directing the Boardroom Show, which is an annual surf industry event. And he has a new podcast called The Boardroom Show podcast, available on iTunes. I really enjoyed this conversation with Scott. Different format to other conversations or to other episodes. This is more just me and Scott riffing on surfing a lot. We covered some lighthearted topics like, is surfing a sport? How do we define style? Is surfing spiritual? Are surfers really the worst? But we get into some deep philosophical thoughts about surfing and the relationship that surfers have with the ocean. It's funny because I've listened to Scott riff on surfing and surf culture for a long time. His satire-filled dry wit often comes across as cynical. But in person, cynical is not the word I would use to describe Scott. He's one of the funniest people I've ever met. And I had to hold back the laughter during this conversation in order not to spoil the recording. So I really hope that Scott's outstanding and intelligent sense of humor comes across in this recording. Not only is Scott very funny, but he's very self-aware. Scott is honest and unafraid to talk about the shortcomings of himself, surfers and the surf culture at large, to the benefit of all of us. Not only is it entertaining and humorous, but it's educational. Surf Mastery is not just about mastering how to surf waves. It's about mastering your relationship to surfing. Is surfing your master? Or are you the master of your surfing? One thing I took away from this conversation is just to look at surf mastery as a much more holistic concept. Thinking about role models in the surf world is not just looking to the best surfers in the world in terms of how they surf a wave, but in terms of who they are as human beings. I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts on this conversation and around this topic. So please engage on Instagram, send me an email. Let Scott know you enjoyed it. If Scott says something that seems shocking or offensive to you, just remember he's saying it as he leans back in his chair with a cheeky grin on his face, feeling nothing but gratitude for his previous surf. What is the tea we're drinking?
Scott Bass
It's called Garden of Eden.
Michael Frampton
It's a black tea?
Scott Bass
It is. It's a black tea and it's got some, I don't know what, some floral or something? I don't know. There's hints of like fruits. There's like fruity hints. We're kind of tea snobs, my wife and I.
Michael Frampton
Herbal or black?
Scott Bass
We do a lot of black and we do this. It's called, it's a milk reserve oolong. We wandered into this tea store one day and we just got sort of captivated by it, you know? And we met the owner was there and he got us engaged and we started trying all these teas. He was quite charming so we bought into his whole spiel. And ever since then we've been sort of on a tea, like we'll do coffee but we do kind of tea in the day. It's kind of more like level. It's not as jacked and crazy dives with caffeine, you know?
Michael Frampton
Rose, I think is the… Rose?
Scott Bass
Are you a tea snob?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I love tea. In New Zealand it's tea. And I lived in England for a while. Tea. And then you come here and no one even knows what a jug or a kettle is.
Scott Bass
Yeah, not sure I do.
Michael Frampton
You don't have it? Do you just use the stove?
Scott Bass
No, we've got like… yeah, that's a hot water deal.
Michael Frampton
It. Yeah, we've got.
Scott Bass
We've got our own little tea deals, the little… I don't even know what they're called. The steepers. Yeah. And all sorts of cool tea. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
What's the most exotic tea that you… I didn't know tea could be.
Scott Bass
Well, you should try this milk reserve oolong. It's pretty radical. Radical. Well, I mean, look, that's just a lack of vocabulary on my part. Like, I'm going to use that word for a lot of things, unfortunately, to the detriment of your podcast. But this oolong, and I'm probably going to butcher the story, but basically these guys in China hike through this tea forest and they get these certain oolong tea leaves and they wrap them in this certain… I don't know if it's like… I don't even know what it is. But the end result is this super smooth and buttery… like butter. Like a buttery tea. And I'll make you some later. It's pretty rad. It's pretty… it's different.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I'm intrigued. Yeah. I'm intrigued. So, when did it start for you? Where were you born?
Scott Bass
I was born in Scottsdale, Arizona. And my father was in the Air Force, and so we moved around a lot. England, Las Vegas, Washington, DC, North Carolina. And then I ended up here in San Diego in 1977. My dad had retired from the Air Force and he went to work for General Dynamics, which was a defense contractor here. And yeah, so I ended up here when I was 12 years old.
Michael Frampton
Siblings?
Scott Bass
Two older brothers.
Michael Frampton
So you were 12 when you came here. Is that when you discovered the ocean?
Scott Bass
Yep. I didn't know anything about… I mean, I had been to the ocean, but I didn't… The concept of surfing or skateboarding or any of this type of lifestyle was new and fresh and exciting to me. And I gobbled it up like most 12-year-olds would, you know. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Did you have a sporting background, though, when you were traveling?
Scott Bass
Yeah, I was sort of a traditional sports guy, you know, as a kid. Like football, baseball. Yeah, football and baseball. Just stick and ball sports, you know.
Michael Frampton
Were you any good?
Scott Bass
No, I was horrible in baseball. I have this great story about… I never got a hit in baseball. Until my last year in Little League. It was here. I was probably 12. It was probably 1978 or something like that. And I sat on the bench. I was horrible at baseball. And even to the point where the coach would look at me and they have to put you in, you know, in Little League. Like, you got to play at least one inning, you know. And they go, okay, Bass, get in there, you know. And I finally… I get up and this was like one of the last games of the season. And I finally get… and I finally hit one. And I'm just like blown away that I actually made contact with the ball. And it went out into right field and I bolted down the line. And my helmet came off as I ran fast down the line. And I made it to first base. And I was so amped and excited that I walked back and grabbed my helmet. And the guy ran and tagged me out because I didn't call a timeout. That's my horrible Little League story.
Michael Frampton
You ran down the line. Is it a baseball term?
Scott Bass
Yeah. There's like a line that you run towards the base. The bases are all sort of set up with lines.
Michael Frampton
And then, so, 12 years old, how did you discover the ocean? Was it just family swimming? Well.
Scott Bass
When we moved here, when we moved to San Diego, we moved right to Del Mar. Like the company my dad worked for put us up at the Del Mar Inn, which is right at 8th Street in Del Mar. So, we literally lived for six months a block from 8th Street in Del Mar. So, you know, I was naturally close to it. Just proximity. And then, eventually, my parents bought a house right up here in Solana Beach. And we moved there. And just living in this area, Solana Beach, Del Mar, North San Diego County Coastal, you're just sort of inundated with the ocean, you know. And I started skateboarding. And my buddy lived right down on the beach in Solana Beach. And we kept our surfboards at his house. And he had boogie boards and surfboards. And it all just was sort of a natural progression from skateboarding, really. I started skateboarding. And then you naturally just moved towards surfing. I think because a lot of it is the media, like the skateboarding magazine, Skateboarder, was put out by the same company that put out Surfer. And they were right next to each other on the magazine newsstand. So, it was a 12-year-old kid. And, of course, those two sports, obviously, are pretty connected. And so, it was just a natural move to start surfing, you know. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
And do you remember your first surfboard?
Scott Bass
My first surfboard I bought from a guy, just like a guy that had quit surfing or something. And it was just kind of beat. It was super down-railed, real full and gross and like a lot of nose rocker. And it was discolored. And, you know, it had like a hideous old fin system box, you know, single fin box thing. And it had like a leash hole in the fin, you know, with one of those bungee cord leashes, you know. The whole thing was just gross. But, yeah. But there wasn't an affinity. I wasn't like stoked. I remember the first board I was super stoked on was a Craig Hollingsworth board that I bought down here at the Nectar Surf Shop at Pillbox in Solana Beach. That was like the board where I like walked into a surf shop and went, I think I want this one, you know. I was clueless, you know. But there was a cute blonde girl named Joyce Sisson who was working there. And, you know, she was four or five years older than me. And I'm 13 or whatever. And I'm just a stoked kid, you know. You know, the romantic notion of the surf shop, especially back then when you just went in and there was the smell of the surf wax. And there's a cute blonde girl that works there. And there's all these incredible surfboards and some wetsuits. And that's kind of it, you know. And you're just in heaven as a kid, you know. Like that's just like, wow, you know. And that chick surfs and she's cute. You know, just the whole thing, you know. Yeah. What about you?
Michael Frampton
When did I start surfing? Yeah. I'm supposed to be interviewing you. Right. No, I started when I was, when I left school. Actually, no. The last, I remember the last day of high school, we had a sports elective. Where instead of going to school, we went out and tried a new sport. And I tried surfing. And I remember I stood up on my first wave. Harvey Bowling, famous New Zealand surfer. Surf lessons in a place called Whanganui. And, you know, I stood up on my first wave and that was it. I was like, this is what I want to do.
Scott Bass
Yeah. It's fascinating? Yeah. Why is that, do you think?
Michael Frampton
It is.
Scott Bass
What is it about surfing? It's a multi-part question, really. It is. The answer is multi-part, anyway.
Michael Frampton
Many people have tried to answer that question and...
Scott Bass
I think we're going to answer it today. Yeah? We're going to get to the bottom of.
Michael Frampton
It. I think ultimately everyone has something, right? Whether it's cross-stitch or skateboarding or skydiving. Yeah. Or owning a fast car and looking after it. Everyone has something that they have to look forward to. Something they want to get better at. Something they share with friends. Something else they can connect to. I think that's a big part of it. Connecting with nature is a big part of it. You know, sometimes if you just paddle out and you don't even catch many waves, it's just fun to paddle out there. Yeah. I don't think I've ever regretted a surf, put it that way.
Scott Bass
If I regretted a surf, it was because my ego got involved. You know what I mean? It wasn't that it wasn't beautiful. So yeah.
Michael Frampton
You have regretted a surf?
Scott Bass
I've regretted paddling out and just getting frustrated. You know, like the south wind comes up, the tide fills in, 14 people paddle around you and you're cold and you can't catch shit. And you're just like.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, see, I love that. I love that.
Scott Bass
Should have went to yoga.
Michael Frampton
Sometimes I force myself to go surfing. I don't really want to go, but I should. I go and I never regret.
Scott Bass
It. Yeah, I understand exactly where you're coming from. It's very rare. And especially as I get older, now it's more about if I just get wet, that's like all gravy, you know? So I'm in a better place mentally where I can just go. Like today, you know, it was beautiful and glassy and warm. When I'm suiting up, I'm like, look, I just get to get wet and move my arms and get some exercise and I'll do some sprint paddles or whatever and I'll just stay involved and stay busy. And be grateful and have a moment, you know, some quiet time. And just be thankful, you know? Yeah. And it actually happened this morning where like I was almost, I wasn't moved to tears, but I was emoting, you know, like how grateful I was. Because it just so happened I was surfing where I learned to, like when I was a kid, in Del Mar at 19th Street. And it was beautiful and glassy, as you know, because you surfed this morning. And gray and it had that muggy kind of tropical feel. And there was no one around and there were these little crappy waves rolling in. And I was just really grateful, you know? I was just really thankful, you know? And so it's those times where there's definitely a spiritual. And I hate, I'm the first one on my podcast to just go, please don't tell me how surfing changed your life. And it's all, you know, I hate all the spiritual cliché crap, but I'm about to go into it because I do believe in it. I do believe that that's a part of it for us. So it needs to be said, but it's just like, okay, it's been said a million times. But I'm going to say it, there was a spiritual moment.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it is spiritual, you're right. Hard to define. I mean, I think spiritual means something different to everyone. Just like surfing is something different to everyone.
Scott Bass
Yeah. I think if you can have introspection, then you're sort of open to a spiritual aspect of whatever it is, your life, hopefully, you know? So if I'm out there and I have the ability, like a quiet time to just to kind of zen out, like to have some moments where I'm not like frothing on when the next set is going to come, but I'm much more engaged in the little bubbles that are around my fingers and the smells. Like if I can try to get to that place and believe me, it's only five seconds. It's not like I'm some zen master out there or anything. And I think that's true with whatever it is, as you mentioned, maybe it's yoga or maybe it's polishing your car or whatever. But I think that's when I enter the realm of the spirit. You know, when I can have quiet time and it allows me to have a little slice of humility where I'm just right sized. I'm not, don't you know who I am? Entitled guy. And I'm not pity potty, but I'm just, I just am, you know? Very rare, those moments, but.
Michael Frampton
That's why we do it. It's when the ego doesn't exist, when it dissolves. And you're in the moment, you're one with the ocean. Yes. Time slows down.
Scott Bass
My God. All the clichés are coming out, Michael. That's a whole different shamed.
Michael Frampton
How it is though, right? Especially, I mean, that's, you know, we, especially surfing waves of consequence. Like if it's pumping. Deal. And you're on your step up, you either get into that zone or you get hurt or.
Scott Bass
Yeah. That's fun, right? Getting into that place. So that's what's so neat, right? There are just so many layers to this thing that you and I do, that we all do. Those that are listening now. There's a ton of layers to it, which is so great. Makes it fun.
Michael Frampton
It's almost like surfing is a bunch of different sports or pursuit in a time.
Scott Bass
I think something that gets a little bit overlooked once in a while, I guess it depends where you're from or where you surf, but here it gets overlooked. But it's the one time that we enter the, what's the phrase I'm looking for? We enter the animal kingdom. Like we enter the food chain is what I'm thinking. We enter the food chain. We go out there and unconsciously when we come in, we're invigorated. Not only because our heart rate came up and the dopamine flowed out of my brain chemistry and my ego maybe got jolted because I think I got a great wave and maybe that guy down the beach saw me. Something sadly as vain as that. And unbeknownst to me, many times I survived. I survived because when we go out there, we can get attacked, eaten. And sometimes there's a little bit of, some of that joy I think comes from, wow, that was invigorating. I faced it and I, but again, I think that's a real subconscious, sometimes unconscious. There's certainly times when we have sessions, we don't even think that we survived. But I think on sort of, on some level, there's some part of us that's like, cool.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's sort of, the ocean's always there. And I think a lot of it is the intention we take out there. So sometimes I think that to speak to what you just said is sometimes surfing can be very primal. It's like this primal instinct because you're going out and you're hunting waves and you're scratching around and you're, watch out, that guy's not going to get it. I'm going to get on the snake here. And you out paddle this guy and you're hunting the little wedges on the inside and your heart's pumping, et cetera. You can have those sorts of surfs. Or you could paddle out on the same day on a longboard, sit out the back and have a riff with some old guy and catch a few waves. Yep. Yet behind you, there's some guy on the inside doing...
Scott Bass
Going.
Michael Frampton
Primal. Exactly. You can have... it can be whatever you want it to be. Yeah. It depends what sort of mood you're in, what sort of board you choose.
Scott Bass
Yeah, it's pretty... it's fascinating, the whole primal part of it. You know, the whole... because I'll ask you this. When you go out and do a session, like let's say, do you play basketball or you know the sport of basketball? Let's just use basketball. Okay, basketball, you know, they blow the whistle, they do the tip-off and it's you against the other team and against the guy you're covering and you are in a sport situation. You are defending him when he's trying to score points and when you have the ball, you're trying to score points as he defends you. You're in sport, it's accepted that you're going... there are certain rules and, you know, there's certain guidelines and stuff that are adhered to, but that guy knows that you're going at him and you know he's coming at you. And there's just a known camaraderie, it's a shared thing, everyone gets it, right? And that's that primal thing you're kind of talking about, like I'm hunting for scoring and whatever. But with surfing, you know, you can be... I can be the guy on the longboard having a chat with a salty dog and then there can be somebody that comes out that's primal and you're just not in the primal mood. You're just like, dude, really, come on. Can't you see I'm having my moment with this guy and with nature? And this guy is just like... and so the whole psychology of the lineup is kind of fascinating, you know? How it all plays out. And it could be argued that guy, the primal guy, is correct. He's out here in a sporting mood and he's going to hunt and outposition and catch more waves than you and that's because that's what the sport of surfing is. Who can catch the most waves and rip the hardest? And other times it's not that. You know, other times it's you and me, salty dog guy, we're talking on our longboards to whoever and we never know. And many times, as you know, both of those things can happen in one session. Like you can be primal guy and then kind of get tired and just chill out and be talking to some mate of yours and before you know it, you've wasted 20 minutes chatting. You start at primal. The whole psychology of it's just... it's kind of fascinating. It's frustrating.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, we lineup politics, isn't it? I guess if you call surfing a sport, it's unlike any other sport. I mean, even something like snowboarding, there's a certain etiquette. Like there's the black runs. You don't go on the black run on a big fat old school snowboard and get in everyone's way. You know, someone's going to notice and complain and you'll get kicked off the mountain. There's a structure around most other sports. Whereas a lineup, it's sort of like an untold etiquette that some people just completely ignore.
Scott Bass
Yeah, rules are lame. Think about it. But actually, rules are important. See, it's just this constant flux of what's right and what's wrong. You know, should we have... what do you think? Should we have rules on the beach carved into a piece of wood that says, do not... guy on the inside has priority? Should there be a sign at every beach that says that? Should every surfer know that? And is that even really the case? What about the salty dog guy that's been surfing there for 60 years and he's been sitting out there for 15 minutes and I primally paddle past him because now I'm on the inside. Do I get to go on him? That doesn't seem right. Or just.
Michael Frampton
Well, that's part of the experience, I think, because you can go surfing and the ocean can humble you. But the lineup, the locals, they can humble you as well. Like if you go out on a shortboard and try and snake everyone at Swami and there's 20 longboarders, I mean, if a longboard hits you in the head, it's kind of your fault. If you want to go out and fight for waves and try and rip, just go to Trestles or go down the beach and find a peak by yourself. And that's part of the learning experience as well. That's what makes surfing so cool. It's not just the ocean you have to deal with. You've got to deal with surfers and surfers are the worst.
Scott Bass
Surfers are the worst. That's how you've got to say it. You can say it any way you want. I like to elongate the worst word like surfers are the worst. It's pretty seppo. Did you... actually, a dear friend of mine who's a writer and is a professor at a local university.
Michael Frampton
Coin that to him?
Scott Bass
And he's a surfer. He's written some surf stuff. I used to work with him at Surfer Magazine. He's the guy that's convinced me that surfers are the worst. And it's true. We are extremely self-centered.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, we can be. I think a lot of surfers, we seek solace a lot of the time, right? We kind of try and seek solace in a crowded lineup.
Scott Bass
That's stupid. Doesn't that seem backwards?
Michael Frampton
We sit there trying to not talk to anyone, look for waves, looking for solace.
Scott Bass
Do you think surfing is a sport?
Michael Frampton
I think it's... yeah, it is. But it's not for everyone. It's only a sport. It's a good question.
Scott Bass
Define sport.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Scott Bass
Here's what a sport is. Okay. I'm going to throw this out there for your listeners if they haven't heard my spiel already. A sport is... there's a couple of things. First of all, you can't wear long... you can't wear dress slacks. You can't smoke cigarettes. You have to be scoring your own points. You can't be judged. You have to be defending. You have to be defended. When you score your own points, you have to be defended. And there's a few other ones in there too. But those are sort of the rules that make up a sport, in my mind, my opinion. Now, surfing... and the other one is you can't be subjectively judged. Which kind of goes to the whole you got to score your own points. Anything other than that is an athletic endeavor. For instance, golf. You're not defended. It could be argued that the course dynamics are a defense. The bunkers, the wind, the way the hole positions, and so forth and so on. But you wear slacks and guys smoke cigarettes when they do it. Or they can and win. They don't anymore, but they used to. So it's not a sport. It's an athletic endeavor.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, there's a black and white version. But then there's the gray area. Basketball, is that a sport?
Scott Bass
Yes. It fits all the criteria. According to the criteria I laid out.
Michael Frampton
But what if it's you and four buddies down by a hoop, no one's keeping score? You're just playing around.
Scott Bass
Well, then you're just practicing.
Michael Frampton
But you're still playing basketball. And basketball is a sport.
Scott Bass
Well, if you're not having a game, if you're not keeping score. So it's just an athletic endeavor at that point. It's practice of the sport.
Michael Frampton
So I would argue that competitive surfing is a sport.
Scott Bass
Right. That's where I'm trying to get to that place.
Michael Frampton
But then by your definition, not really. Well, no.
Scott Bass
There's guys that are judging you that aren't even as good as you. Subjective judging just leaves way too much gray area.
Michael Frampton
But there's no gymnastics. I know.
Scott Bass
Athletic endeavor, not a sport. Just throwing it out there. It's good fodder for the listeners to chew on. Most people disagree with me and that's fine. Because I love the sport of surfing, which is a weird thing. I'm a huge fan of what the WSL, or not the WSL of itself. But I love the idea of competitive surfing. And it's manifest now as the WSL. Before it was the ASP. But I can watch a non-sanctioned big wave event and be engaged by the sport that's taking place.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. You mentioned on your last podcast, it's hard to relate to a lot of surfing now. I think maybe your guest said that. Like back in the day, it was even... I think the analogy you guys use is it used to be that the local guy who rips was almost as good as some of the pros. And nowadays the pros, with all the training and the amount of time they put in the water, they're so far ahead of anyone else. That it's almost not relatable.
Scott Bass
Yeah, I think you're right. On a certain level, absolutely. Especially what we just saw with Felipe and Italo and all those guys at J-Bay. The stuff that they were doing. I think what is a great equalizer is big waves. I think when we get all of us and it's like, okay, it's 10-foot Puerto Escondido. Guess what? You're not going to be doing little flippy aerials. That's for the kiddie pool. This is where the men paddle out and we prove ourselves the way we've always proven ourselves. As men in the ocean. Way back to the days of Felipe Pomar and Greg Noll. Before him even, right? George Downing and Makaha. It was always about big wave surfing. Big wave surfing is really where you looked to for your champions. And so that's the equalizer. Because, look, we all know that if we're going to paddle into a 10-foot bomb at Puerto Escondido, we got to put our heads down. We got to put ourselves in position. We're not going to be doing much, but a lot. Which is paddling into a mean wave and standing up and doing a mid-face turn and pulling into the tube. And that's something that we can all relate to. So you're right. Some of the radical aerial stuff, especially guys my age. But I appreciate it. I love it. What Felipe Toledo was doing last week at J-Bay was fascinating. It's incredible. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
It is.
Scott Bass
But I don't try to do that.
Michael Frampton
That's interesting. I'm a pretty average surfer, but I've surfed triple overhead outside reefs on a gun. But there's no way I can do an air on a two-foot wave.
Scott Bass
Do you want to?
Michael Frampton
Not really. I mean, it would be fun to be able to push my body like that when the waves are small. I'm in awe when I go out and I'm struggling to catch waves on my fish and some guy comes out on a toothpick and just is doing roundhouse cutbacks and the aerials. That blows my mind.
Scott Bass
Yeah, he's doing roundhouse cutbacks on the wave. He's doing aerials out of the wave. So there's always this disconnect between, why wouldn't I want to be in the wave?
Michael Frampton
But the ability to read the wave so well that you can get speed out of a bottom turn on a wave that most people struggle to catch is just amazing.
Scott Bass
Yeah, it is. In that regard, it's sort of a young man's endeavor.
Michael Frampton
Kind of.
Scott Bass
I know, because you're on the prowl. You're constantly trying to improve your thing, which is awesome. I am too, by the way.
Michael Frampton
I think everyone is on some level, just most people aren't willing to admit it.
Scott Bass
You know, I took off on a wave today, got to my feet and fell flat on my face. Lost my board. I was just like, wow. I couldn't even engage the fin to get the first little check turn on this wave.
Michael Frampton
You're too up in your head, probably.
Scott Bass
Maybe.
Michael Frampton
Not in the zone.
Scott Bass
I've blamed a bunch of things on it already, but if I really look at it, maybe it's...
Michael Frampton
That's a good thing about surfing. You get instant feedback.
Scott Bass
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Pretty much. Especially if you're trying to get better as a performer. I mean, you've probably seen yourself on footage. Someone's filmed you surfing, you've seen it, it's pretty humbling.
Scott Bass
Yeah. Yeah, it's not quite what you expect. Video doesn't lie. That's the beauty. Like still images, you're like, look at me. But with video, you're like, you know what? Let's move along here. Nothing to see here. But it's sort of all about style, right? Like, I think it's the most important thing. You have to have a good style. If you don't have a good style, it doesn't matter how great your vertical attack into the lip is because you're doing it with bad style. So I think style is one of the super cool things about surfing.
Michael Frampton
That's a great question. Do you define style?
Scott Bass
I guess a lot of it is... if you were to sort of break it down, a lot of it is just, I guess, how your body and your hands and your arms and everything is positioned. But true style is sort of... there's no thought that goes into it. It's just kind of like... it's a representation of yourself on the wave. It's just the way that you want to present yourself on the wave. So it's like dancing. And quite frankly, it is dancing. It's like, are you a good dancer on the wave? And there's great dancers on waves and there's not-so-great dancers on waves. And in that dance, there's a lot of hand positioning and the way that you tweak your legs and all of that stuff, which is very important, which I think sort of gets ingrained in you when you start soaking up all that is surfing and all that is surf culture. When you first engage in the activity, when you first get involved in the culture, you're like, wow, look at that guy's style. So you take all these parts and you try to adapt them. But generally what happens is there's a certain love for what you're doing that finds its way, manifests in an expression on the wave face, the way that you do it. And there's quite a few just really great dancers. But I think style is the most important thing. Because at the end of the day, when we're 75 years old and surfing, hopefully, all you're going to really have left is your style. You know what I mean? Like PT, I surfed with PT last, maybe two years ago or something at Rincon, super small, maybe one to two feet. It was a surf contest there and it was like an exhibition thing. And PT caught these little one, two-foot waves, super small waves on his 11-foot board. But PT does his soul arch thing, he puts his hands just so, and he styles his way through just the feeblest of little waves. But it looked great because that's what he's got. He's got style. Guys have style. As you know, I'm sure. Who are some of your favorite surfers as far as their style?
Michael Frampton
Machado.
Scott Bass
Yes, absolutely. Hands down, okay.
Michael Frampton
Craig Anderson.
Scott Bass
Yes.
Michael Frampton
Shane Dorian.
Scott Bass
In a different kind of way.
Michael Frampton
Sure.
Scott Bass
Joel Parkinson. Okay. Do you think you can have style without fluidity?
Michael Frampton
No.
Scott Bass
Right, totally agree with that.
Michael Frampton
I think fluidity is maybe... closer to... because someone can be really... like if you imagine Craig Anderson or Rob Machado holding their body in the same positions when they're surfing stylie, but they were having a bad day and they just kept bogging rail and stop-start surfing. They wouldn't necessarily be stylish. Even though their body might look stylish in a photo, there's no fluidity. So it's that their ability to read and connect to the wave and stay in the power source. Yeah. Just allows them opportunity to move their way they want to move.
Scott Bass
Yeah, they become as one, right? Guys with really good style, it seems like they're as one with the wave. Like they're just super tuned into it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and all the pro surfers I've met and talked to as well, they describe the feeling of good surfing as connection. Being connected to the wave, connected to the power source. Yeah. And when they feel connected, there's almost nothing they can't do. Because the speed's there, the power's there. You can apply pressure in the right places and do your thing.
Scott Bass
Who else has great style? There's one you're missing that's you, yes.
Michael Frampton
Just... it's there, I mean, Curran.
Scott Bass
Tom Curran, perhaps the greatest style. This is full California bias right here coming out of Scott.
Michael Frampton
If I could click my fingers, it would be Rob Machado any day, I think.
Scott Bass
Yeah, I would agree. Rob's insane. And Rob probably tracks his style to Lopez. Craig Anderson, I'm sure, tracks his style to Rob. I'm just guessing based on... they're sort of similar. Lopez tracks his, I think, to Jock Sutherland. So there's this lineage of styles too. Dave Rastovich, by the way.
Michael Frampton
Yes, of course.
Scott Bass
Rastovich's got insane style. So my question to you is, do you think that Rob Machado and Dave Rastovich have the greatest styles like right now of contemporary surfers?
Michael Frampton
Yes.
Scott Bass
Then aren't they the greatest surfers? Aren't they your champion?
Michael Frampton
Yes, but I think Dane Reynolds has style too.
Scott Bass
I do too. Totally love Dane Reynolds' style. Some of it, I don't even know if... I've always thought he looked like Davey Miller, who's a guy you probably don't know, but he's a guy from Ventura that sort of has a similar style. At least I see it in Dane. But for sure, Dane Reynolds has got a great style. Super good style. And.
Michael Frampton
Of course, Steph Gilmore. Princess Diana. She's so stylish. Her timing is perfect. It gives the illusion of power too.
Scott Bass
Who's got bad style? Here we go, Michael. I'm taking over. You don't have to answer that. But there are people that you're just like, I don't want my kid to surf like that. I know that. He's getting a lot of points, but whatever. There's.
Michael Frampton
A lot of surfers on tour that have inconsistency in their style. Sometimes I really do enjoy Adriano. But sometimes I'm just like, dude, just loosen up.
Scott Bass
Connecting the darts too much, not flowing between the darts.
Michael Frampton
Sometimes it looks like he's out there just trying to literally compete rather than surf. And then the pooh stance. So he fits the criteria and gets scored well. But I'm not going to watch the replay of that. But I'll watch the replay of Joel Parkinson.
Scott Bass
Because almost too smooth for the judging.
Michael Frampton
He's just always smooth and consistent.
Scott Bass
Which is why surfing is not a sport. If the greatest surfers in the contest aren't moving through. But then the argument is, why even have the contest? Why not just claim Joel's the winner every time? So this is why we love them. Because they've got to catch the good waves and they've got to do their thing.
Michael Frampton
Well, the competition surfing drives progression. When did you start competing?
Scott Bass
I started competing in high school. On the high school surf team. Why? I'm sure there was ego involved. I'm sure I wanted to be seen. I sort of cloaked myself in this identity as a surfer. And I wanted to be seen as one of the better ones. And so to do that, to be looked at by my peers as one of the better ones, a way to do that is to amass a certain amount of results and trophies and, hey, look at me moments. And so sadly, not sadly, but the ego is a big part of it. And getting acknowledgement from my peer group is a big part of it. And that's not necessarily a healthy thing. I think when you're a kid, it's okay. I think it's just like anything. Too much of anything is bad.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Well, if we go back to it. Do you think David Rastovich and Rob Machado would be as good as they are now on alternative equipment if they hadn't learned how to surf the wave in the pocket on performance shortboards?
Scott Bass
No. Because I don't think it matters what kind of board you're on as long as you're in the pocket.
Michael Frampton
I disagree. I mean, you look back at Rasta, the way he was surfing a performance shortboard. If he could have done that in competition, he would have been world champ. Yeah. If he hadn't had that background and he'd only surfed fat fishes, I don't think he would be surfing those fat fishes the way that he's surfing them now. That's because you can ride a fat fish in the pocket fine, if you know what you're doing.
Scott Bass
Probably true. You've changed my mind.
Michael Frampton
But you can ride a fat fish just flat and down the line fine, and it works. There's so much leeway. But if you're on a performance shortboard, there is only one way to surf that board, and that's on rail in the pocket. If you're not on rail and in the pocket, it doesn't even work. It's like a performance shortboard forces you to surf the board on rail all of the time, close to the power zone.
Scott Bass
It's kind of relative, though, isn't it? When you think about like Rabbit Bartholomew, or the guys that were riding single fins but trying to progress as radically as they could, Shaun Tomson, that mid-70s era before the twin fin really took over. I mean, those guys jumped to the better board and surfed well, and you could argue that they can get on a fish and still... So I don't know if the... I agree with you that those guys... Rasta rides alternative equipment incredibly because he was in tune with surfing at a very young age. I'm going to suggest to you, regardless of the equipment that he was... He just so happened to be on really great equipment because that was the era he was in. But Wayne Lynch was on freaky equipment, and he can do all that stuff. Is he Dave Rastovich? No. But I think there's some... you have to put it in context.
Michael Frampton
I see what you're saying. But I think if you wind back the clock and you gave Shaun Tomson a modern high-performance shortboard, I think he would have been better.
Scott Bass
Yeah. I see Shaun surf on his tri-fin now and again. Maybe.
Michael Frampton
You look back at some of the old footage of Kelly when he was on those tiny boards. He had to surf behind the whitewash. He was surfing so far back. His board was so small. You had to be right where the wave was hitting the bottom, right in the pocket. Otherwise the board wouldn't have worked. And then you get used to that, and then all of a sudden that gets ingrained. And then you jump on a different board, and you've learnt all these new lines because you were forced to by a crazy rocket board.
Scott Bass
Yeah. I think there's a lot of validity in this. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
I think of the Bunny Chow from Channel Islands.
Scott Bass
Yes.
Michael Frampton
That surfboard forced me to surf in the power zones.
Scott Bass
Yeah. There was no other way.
Michael Frampton
It's the kind of board that if you drive out into the face, it just dies.
Scott Bass
Right. So that board forced me to be... because it's still a groveler board, but it's just got the right amount of curve and rocker that you can't get away with surfing it like a fish.
Michael Frampton
Right. You can't run out onto the zone, and you won't have any planing speed, and you'll just fade out.
Scott Bass
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I guess what we're agreeing on is that no matter what board you're on, you want to be in the pocket.
Michael Frampton
Right? Most people aren't, though.
Scott Bass
Well, yeah. But that doesn't mean they don't want to be. They just can't.
Michael Frampton
Most people don't even surf a surfboard on rail.
Scott Bass
Yeah. I might be that guy. So you have a real affinity towards surfing on rail.
Michael Frampton
I mean, it's hard, man. It's really hard. Just the feeling is so much different.
Scott Bass
The... I mean, that seems kind of... but at certain points, you have to be on plane to get it on rail. So you're saying rail to rail.
Michael Frampton
Rail to rail. If you want to go fast and push your body, if you're not on rail, there's nothing to push against. If the board's not at a 45-degree angle to the water, you have nothing to jump off. Yeah. And if your technique isn't spot on, you can't get the board on 45.
Scott Bass
Half the board, or the other half of the board, or...
Michael Frampton
Just recently, I really... because I was getting footage done, and photos, and I was just all up in... I spent a week down in Puro Surf.
Scott Bass
Where?
Michael Frampton
El Salvador.
Scott Bass
With Jesse?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, Jesse was there. And I just focused... there's good waves and filming, and I just shortboard. Just focused 100% for a week on trying to get a bottom turn. A proper bottom turn.
Scott Bass
What board?
Michael Frampton
I was on a Rook 15.
Scott Bass
A what?
Michael Frampton
A Rook 15. Just the standard Channel Islands performance shortboard.
Scott Bass
How big?
Michael Frampton
6'0".
Scott Bass
How wide?
Michael Frampton
19". Like... I had to put a lot of focus and a lot of effort. And when I got it...
Scott Bass
37"?
Michael Frampton
When I got it, my glutes on my front... my left leg, I had the... you know the muscle soreness when you first go to the gym for the first time in a while? It was like that. I was like, wow, I actually finally hit the body position. There's a lot of force going through your body when you... and then get it on rail on 45, you've got to be strong to be able to manage that kind of speed. But that feeling... I've always just wanted to know. Surfing is amazing, and I've seen myself surf, but I don't care. It's just fun. I'm going to keep surfing. But damn, I want to know what it feels like to surf like that guy. Because he's going three times as fast as me. And he's not losing any speed through any turn. What does that feel like? If surfing is this good at half the speed, what does it feel like? What does it feel like to surf like that? What does the connection to the ocean feel like that? And that's what kind of drives me to get better.
Scott Bass
That's cool.
Michael Frampton
Because I'm not a competitive surfer. I don't give a shit about that. But I want to know what it feels like to surf like that.
Scott Bass
Just full top speed, bang. Smooth transitions.
Michael Frampton
It's really hard to change your bad habits and your technique.
Scott Bass
Yeah, it's interesting. I guess I'm always trying to band-aid that with different boards. I'm always looking for speed. Give me a board with speed, I will control it. I will bring it in. But don't make me get on a board where I have to get it up to speed. Where, okay, now I've got the speed that you're discussing. It leads us to the whole search for the right surfboard. Relative to the conditions of the day. It's a super high-quality first world problem. I've got so many boards, which one is the right one? Because at the end of the day, I can't speak for you, but I would love to be able to surf a third as good as Dane Reynolds. In regards to down to the bottom, up to the top, down to the bottom, and all with speed. Now a lot of times the waves I'm riding, they don't even have that there. It's like Swamys or something, a small day at Swamys or wherever. It's not like a super zippy fast beach break. And to do turns, I need a board that's going to run me out onto the shoulder and carry speed through the turn. And then maybe eventually I'll get to the inside where it kind of zippers off and I'll be able to race through it. So the search for the perfect surfboard. Is there such a thing as a perfect surfboard? I don't think there is. No, there's not. There's only the right equipment relative to the waves.
Michael Frampton
And relative to what you want to do. Do you remember the movie Tin Cup?
Scott Bass
Yes.
Michael Frampton
I forget the character's name, Kevin Costner, right?
Scott Bass
Yes.
Michael Frampton
Took a 7-iron, right?
Scott Bass
Yes.
Michael Frampton
That was it, right? So he's a pro. So Dane Reynolds grabs a performance shortboard. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what the waves are like. He's so good, it doesn't matter. In Tin Cup, 7-iron is all he needs. Most of us, we need a golf bag with 20 clubs in it. Otherwise, it's just not fun.
Scott Bass
You're still at that age where you can grasp at getting better. I'm sort of at an age where I'm just trying to stay the same. That's... And I see drop-off.
Michael Frampton
A progression.
Scott Bass
I feel drop-off.
Michael Frampton
But if you're aging at a certain rate, but your surfing is maintaining, that's a progression. Is it not?
Scott Bass
I love the way you're rationalizing it. I've got a smile on my face. I'm feeling better about things. All I'm saying is that when I was 37, I was surfing way better than I am when I'm 53.
Michael Frampton
How do you define good surfing?
Scott Bass
When I want to take it there.
Michael Frampton
So there's no frustration?
Scott Bass
Yeah, and there's no thought. The idea of going, I'm going to drop in on this wave, and I want to do a bottom turn at this point and a top turn at this point. When things are clicking, everything's just flowing together, a la Craig Anderson or all these guys when you were talking about fluidity. And sometimes the fluidity is missing now that I'm, as I see myself get older. And because of that, I will go to boards with more foam because I want to enjoy my experience, of course. And once you start going to boards with more foam, then there's obviously a drop-off. And so there's... It's almost like a contradiction. I envy you, Michael. You're 37. You're doing proper bottom turns at Zunzal or wherever it was.
Michael Frampton
How do you define good surfing visually then? That's your experience, but how do you define it visually?
Scott Bass
You mean when I'm watching somebody?
Michael Frampton
You're judging someone.
Scott Bass
I love that word. So it's just about, in my opinion, it's about... You can tell when somebody's having a really good time. Like the really great surfers are having a good time. They're fluid. They're in the critical part of the wave. They're judging the wave before it even happens 25 yards down the line. And they're just in sync with it all. It's all flowing. It all becomes one. It's very natural. Tons of fluidity. And so it's sort of like this 30,000-foot level. Like I don't necessarily like granularly go, he's got to do a bottom turn at this apex of the point of the wave or whatever. I'm just looking at Dane Reynolds and Joel Parkinson and Mick Fanning and all of these guys that you and I admire. And I'm going, that guy's fluid. He's absolutely ripping and carving in the critical part of the wave with speed, power and flow. Which is just code for style. Flow or fluidity. It's just another synonym for style.
Michael Frampton
That's a good way to describe it. Yeah, you look at someone like Rob Machado, who's just... His style and his timing and the way he places his board on the wave is so good. He almost gives... He's not a powerful surfer. He's not like forcing anything. But he gives the illusion of power. And I think, same with in golf, you don't necessarily have to smash a ball to hit it far. If your swing is smooth and you time it and you hit the ball with pinprick accuracy, it's going to fly.
Scott Bass
Did you play golf?
Michael Frampton
I've dabbled a little bit. No.
Scott Bass
You're right. I spoke with Rob about a week ago and told him his surfing looks... He could be on the CT. Like his surfing is so good still. And I think he's right around 43 or 44 now. He might not have the air game of Italo and these guys, but God, he surfs good. Yeah, it's inspiring. I mean, he's straight up and you've seen, you know.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. I want to know what that feels like.
Scott Bass
Yeah. We want to go do that right now. Let's go.
Michael Frampton
You can change your style though. It just takes a lot of effort.
Scott Bass
I don't want to change my style. I'm happy with my style.
Michael Frampton
You can get better, is what I'm saying. I'm speaking to the listeners, right? If you're serious about getting a little better at surfing, you've got to put the effort in.
Scott Bass
I listened to the Barton Lynch episode. It was interesting. Do you want me to get the dog out of the way? He's like the ultimate... He's like a full-on sportsman. You know what I mean? I wouldn't suggest... My opinion is he doesn't have the greatest style, but he's an incredible competitor. And he gets the job done. And he's obviously into it. I found it fascinating. And I think the Australian culture, and maybe the Kiwi culture too, is... it's sporting in nature. The interesting thing is, one of my favorite surfers of all time, if not my favorite surfer of all time, is Rabbit Bartholomew, who's this sporting Australian that was extremely competitive, that basically forced himself to have a career in surfing before there was such a thing as a career in surfing. He has great style. What a great style. Incredible style, man. When I was a kid, I was just like, Rabbit is the man. And I was from that free ride generation, you know, 1977. I was 12 years old eating all of that stuff up. You know, Shaun, MR, and Rabbit. Those three guys, specifically. But he's this uber-sporting guy, you know. But such good style. Great style. He'll tell you, style is the most important. It's the essence of it all. You know, he looked to Lopez. He looked to Michael Peterson. And he looked to Lopez. And I'm sure he probably looked to Shaun a little bit, even though they were contemporaries. But anyway, I digress.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think style... What does style feel like?
Scott Bass
It feels like you're dancing to the right beat, man. You're not doing a salsa dance when you're supposed to be doing a, you know, whatever.
Michael Frampton
Give me another dance name.
Scott Bass
Hip-hop.
Michael Frampton
Thank you. Yeah, you're right. If someone goes out and tries to... On a shortboard at one foot Swamys, and tries to dance like a hip-hopper, it just looks wrong. It's out of place. You've got to choose the right board, the...
Scott Bass
Yeah, you do.
Michael Frampton
Right... outfit for the dance. Who's your favorite surfer?
Scott Bass
I love Rasta, and Dane, and Joel.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. For sure.
Scott Bass
Yeah, you can't go wrong with those guys.
Michael Frampton
Who else? Machado. Sometimes I'll watch Machado in the mirror. So he's a natural footer.
Scott Bass
Yeah, that's the only thing really that he did wrong, you know, is that he goes goofy foot. And that's sort of sad, and that's unfortunate. But thank God for mirrors, you know. The Switchfoot Bro-Am was down here last week, about 10 days ago, where you have to go switchfoot on one wave. And of course, Rob, just no problem. There's a couple guys. Curran is another guy who can go switchfoot and just looks great. And how good is Italo switchfoot?
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Scott Bass
That's incredible.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
All those guys are amazing. What has surfing taught you about life?
Scott Bass
Well, surfing, that's a good question. I don't... What has surfing taught me about life? I don't think I learned a lot about how to behave from surfing that's very good. Most of my behavior regarding surfing is extremely self-centered. It's selfish. It's a selfish pursuit. It involves a lot of ego. And most of the good stuff that I've learned about how to behave and how to be a mature man in society is from mentors that don't even necessarily surf. You know. So, I mean, certainly, you know, I mean, there's a certain sense of humility that occurs, you know. Like, when you get slapped down, you know. And I've never really thought about that. That's a really good question. I wish I had some canned response for you, but it's almost like I need to journal that out. You know, like I... As I sit here and think about what has surfing taught me about life? I mean, there's some kind of like top-level stuff like how to read the ocean. I'm very engaged in weather and meteorology and that stuff and the Madden-Julian Oscillation Index and Kelvin waves and, you know, El Niño. And so, it's made me be engaged about the world around me, you know. Why the clouds move the way they do and why the hemispheres act in the way that they act and all of that stuff.
Michael Frampton
Maybe. Okay, what has life taught you about surfing?
Scott Bass
That's a better... Well, not a better question, but one that I think I can answer easier. What life has taught me about surfing is to not be such a selfish dick. Really, you know. That it's not all about me, you know. And the sooner that you realize, the sooner that Scott realizes it's not all about him, the sooner life gets easier. You know. Life's taught me that you need to let go of all of the preconceived notions about, you know, who you are, you know. Like, I think that it's important. I think life has taught me that surfing shouldn't be my identity. The concept of a surfer. It used to be all I was about. Like, I would just love it if somebody, "You're the surfer," you know. And now I cringe. There's a little vomit in my mouth when somebody says that. I'm like, God. I wish that this person, and even that, me wishing that somebody perceived me in a different way is based in ego and the way that I want to be perceived. And perhaps I want to be liked. Maybe I'm a people pleaser. So, life's taught me a lot about surfing and about myself and in my relationship to surfing. I don't even know if I answered your question, but...
Michael Frampton
You did. But it's pretty good. It's a deep question.
Scott Bass
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Do you take some of those life lessons into a surf session and then enjoy surfing more?
Scott Bass
Absolutely. Yeah. If I can go out and outwardly go, "Hey, great wave. I saw you ripping. Go get another one," like, that's a massive amount of growth in my life. You know. Unfortunately, when I paddle out, a lot of times my default, if I see you and three other guys suiting up or paddling out, I'm already figuring out ways that we're going to get into a hassle. Like, I'm one of the elite of the mentally ill. You know what I mean? Like, I'm already thinking out scenarios of, "This guy..." I hate it when this guy paddles out. And it's all based in fear. It's all fear-based that I'm not going to get mine because there's only so many waves. And, you know, and it's just... It's super immature. And that's sort of what I'm learning about myself is that this thing, the way that I perceive surfing, the way that I've manifest surfing in my life, doesn't coincide with the way I want to be on land. You know. Like, if I'm striving to be a mature male in society and to be honest and open-minded and willing and of service to my fellow man and providing unconditional love, expecting nothing in return. All of these are high ideals, which I don't meet, by the way, on land. But if I'm striving for them. How can I then go into the water and be like, "F*** that guy over there?" And in my head be having, like, little... Waiting for the verbal joust to begin. You know what I'm saying? You probably don't like this guy. Scott's mentally f***ed up. And so I have to pause and have a little moment of contemplation before I paddle out and be like, "You know what? I'm just stoked to be getting wet. This is going to be exercise." So a lot of it's about expectations. I can keep my expectations low. If my expectation is, "Hey, I can't wait to meet somebody out in the water today and share a smile and just be like, cool, good, go for it." You know, I mean, I'm 53. You know how many waves I've caught? Hundreds of thousands. I don't know how many, but I've got my share. And so if I can just let go of all of the "I need to go perform. I've got to go do it this way." Or else, you know, like there's a lot of this default in me. That probably would be the same way if I was like a baseball player or whatever. I might have these same defaults. Just so happens that that's the way sometimes I look at surfing. You know, like it's just because of the limited resource, the limited amount of waves and the numbers of people. You know, there can be a lot of selfishness.
Michael Frampton
Surfers are...
Scott Bass
The worst. You could just say Scott is the worst. Because I'm not sure that everyone thinks the way I think. I'm a little askew. I'm a little... Like I said, I'm probably one of the elite of the mentally ill.
Michael Frampton
Well, you know, the wave pools might change that because the preciousness of a wave to yourself might not exist in 10 years.
Scott Bass
I agree. I'm excited about that. Not for that reason, but I think the wave pool thing has taken off. I just don't... I don't know. We don't know. I mean, because we spoke earlier at the beginning about how incredible surfing is, not necessarily by our performance on the wave, but just the whole nature thing. You know, like I get to go into the ocean. There's kelp washing around. There's seals popping up. There could be a great white shark that attacks me. The waves are pumping. Look at the sun just popped out. The fresh breeze. How about the smell of Trestles when you're walking in, the lavenders, all of these things.
Michael Frampton
I agree, but you can't take that in. Like golf is an analogy, right? Let's say that the only time you ever got to play golf or practice your swing was when you're on the course and there's people behind you and there's people in front of you. All of a sudden you get maybe four or five attempts at your swing, but the pressure.
Scott Bass
That would be horrible.
Michael Frampton
Exactly, but we can go to the driving range and get a lesson. All of a sudden we have this confidence in our technique, confidence in our swing, confidence in our club choice. Then we take that to the game when there's people behind us. All of a sudden you can enjoy the game and the surroundings. If the wave pools give us the opportunity to improve our technique...
Scott Bass
If they mimic the ocean, right? The one thing about the wave pool, I don't know... Have you surfed? Have you surfed any of these wave pools?
Michael Frampton
No, I haven't yet.
Scott Bass
The one thing that's missing is this idea of being able to judge the incoming swell. Because the wave pools, or at least Kelly's, is very systematic and very Orwellian and very much, "Your wave is coming in one minute." Man, there's some pressure. You feel some pressure when they're on the loudspeaker. "By the way, if you fall, that's it." You paid quite a large sum of money to get your four waves. If you fall, you're bombed. Back to what I was saying is that hopefully they will be able to mimic incoming swells in such a way that you'll be able to take it from there. Learn in Arizona and go to Blacks and be like, "Yeah, no problem. I've been surfing for years and I've got this wired."
Michael Frampton
I think it will improve.
Scott Bass
It can't hurt.
Michael Frampton
I hope it does.
Scott Bass
Can't improve the ocean experience.
Michael Frampton
I think you're right.
Scott Bass
I think you're good. I think that if you look at after the little test contest they had, I think Gabe won and Carissa won last year. They had that little test run contest. I forget what they called it. It wasn't an official sanctioned CT, but they brought some people there. The following event was in France and Gabe and Carissa won. We made this suggestion on our podcast, David and I, that this is proof that this is helping. Because they weren't on their game prior. They hadn't done very well. So that speaks to what you're saying. I think it could improve.
Michael Frampton
I was more thinking for the general public. Because the weekend warrior, that opportunity to surf a wave with no one dropping in is very rare. Let alone a wave that has unlimited power sources right there and you can repeat it.
Scott Bass
When are you going?
Michael Frampton
I don't know.
Scott Bass
You should go to Waco.
Michael Frampton
I know. I haven't planned it yet. We'll get there.
Scott Bass
I'm going in the heat of August when it's probably 100 degrees. It's going to be fun.
Michael Frampton
It looks amazing.
Scott Bass
You should.
Michael Frampton
I'd love to.
Scott Bass
Join us.
Michael Frampton
Keep me in the loop.
Scott Bass
I will.
Michael Frampton
Have we bored your audience?
Scott Bass
Have I bored your audience?
Michael Frampton
No. I've got way more questions. We don't have to do a second interview because we're running out of time.
Scott Bass
No. Go ahead. I've got time.
Michael Frampton
What time is it?
Scott Bass
I have a 2 o'clock.
Michael Frampton
Nearly 12:30. Do you think performance shortboards for the general public are dying?
Scott Bass
In California, they're just not the best equipment at most of the spots. If you go to El Porto or Manhattan Beach, occasionally you need a good board. But for a lot of the spots in California, that's just not the best board choice. If you surf Blacks every day, you need a performance shortboard. If you surf Newport Beach, you probably need a performance shortboard. But the majority of the spots require a board that's going to give you some speed. That's going to give you the ability to go out onto the shoulder and do the turn and come back into the pocket. Now, I think that, and this is... I'd like to hear your thoughts. I think that the demographic is aging. I don't necessarily think there's as many young kids surfing as we'd like to think. And think about your surf session today and the last five surf sessions you've had. Where are all the 12-year-old kids? I see a ton of guys like you and me, 37, 53.
Michael Frampton
I agree. Here in California, yeah. In Australia, the kids galore.
Scott Bass
Yeah. Good. But why not here?
Michael Frampton
I don't know the answer.
Scott Bass
I mean, it's just a participation observation. There's no data that I have that backs this up. But I'm just wondering, you know, I mean, are they all in Newport or I don't know.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question.
Scott Bass
So that could be part of it. But to answer your question, in 1995, everyone was on that super blady, supermodel, rockered out thing that Kelly was riding.
Michael Frampton
But for no good reason.
Scott Bass
No, none at all, except for he was riding it.
Michael Frampton
What I'm getting at is surfing is evolving. We're choosing better equipment for the conditions.
Scott Bass
Absolutely.
Michael Frampton
And that's the way it should be. And I think that benefits everyone in the lineup. Ultimately.
Scott Bass
No doubt. I mean, all the guys that were riding, all the guys that were 37 that were riding performance tri-fin longboards because they just didn't want to deal with the kid that was, but they wanted to rip off the bottom but catch the wave. They all immediately went to what started out as six-two fishes and ended up being five-nine fishes, you know, because they were catching tons of waves but getting all the speed that they were generating off of the longboard. Now they're getting it out of the fish. So the fish had a big resurgence, as you know, and that was sort of part of it. And now we're kind of going back. Like, you know, it blows my mind that I'm contemplating riding a five-ten shortboard tri-fin when in 1986, a six-two, when I was 26 or whatever, you know, however I was, 21 or whatever, that was, you know, six-two was the shortboard. Like, if you went underneath six feet, that was like crazy. Like, I'll tell you what. So anyway, it's interesting, right? The way it's working.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. If you could have, if you only had one surfboard for the rest of your life here in Southern California, what would that board be?
Scott Bass
It would be a six tri-fin, probably like a Pat Rawson wide point forward, wing swa, a wing pin, like a round, not a pin tail, but a round tail with a wing, wide point forward, kind of like a single fin design from, say, 1978, but with modern bottom, a tri-fin setup that I could ride in the winter, that I could ride in the summer when the waves are good, that would even float me on a day like today if I need to get wet on a three-foot day in the summertime. That would last me. But it's a great question. I've asked this question many times, and it's changed for me. It used to be a performance longboard because I could go to Porto Escondido and ride it. I could, you know... But my, what I do is shifted. Like, I'm not going to go to Porto Escondido anymore. You know what I mean? And so, for the rest of my life, if this is the only board I get, I know when I'm 70, I'll be able to paddle it around and surf at Swami and catch a few waves and, you know, go to Blacks and surf it and go to Oceanside and ride the beach break. And it's going to get me around, and I'm going to enjoy it. Like, I enjoy that board today, you know.
Michael Frampton
Let's assume same question, but five surfboards. If you had five surfboards for the rest of your life and you weren't limited to Southern California, you could go on trips. What would those five surfboards be?
Scott Bass
Okay. One would be an 11-foot glider. Another one would be a nine-foot sort of quasi nose rider, but kind of performancey. Another one would be that six board that I mentioned, right? The Rawson single pin, single wing round pin. Another one would be a Wayne Rich sort of tweener board, like not a fish, but not a high-performance shortboard. Like, wider, kind of rippable little wide board for summertime, two to three footers that'll just get me around. And the other one would be a six-three, like a Mayhem, like a Lost six-three performance shortboard that I could take to like Salina Cruz and ride the right points, or I could take to Blacks on a good day. And it's going to get me into all those positions that I hope to stay in, you know, up into the pocket. I'm going to try to rip like the pros rip, even though I'm not going to. So those would be my five boards.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that was easy.
Scott Bass
Because those are the boards I already own. They're sitting out there.
Michael Frampton
How many boards do you own?
Scott Bass
God. I own too many boards, probably 35 or something like that. But I'm in the board business.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, all tax write-off.
Scott Bass
Exactly.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. You can never have too many, right?
Scott Bass
Might as well order them.
Michael Frampton
As long as you've got the space.
Scott Bass
You're in the surf industry. You can write off all your boards.
Michael Frampton
I don't know about that. My background is personal training.
Scott Bass
Okay. That's right.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. I'm doing a lot of neurology stuff at the moment. So a lot of high-end performance, sports vision, high-end performance stuff, and then injury management. So the neurology stuff is very effective for high-end sports people because we're training the eyes and the balance and other things.
Scott Bass
The brain essentially.
Michael Frampton
Right. But it is phenomenal with dealing with chronic pain, especially. It's amazing how the better your eyes move, the more accurately they move, the faster they move, the more awareness your brain has of both eyes working together, the less pain you're going to be in. And the more freedom your body will have.
Scott Bass
That's pretty cool.
Michael Frampton
It's just one example.
Scott Bass
Eye exercises?
Michael Frampton
You need to assess.
Scott Bass
Yeah. It's not...
Michael Frampton
It's a very simplified...
Scott Bass
Just one blanket exercise you give everybody. Like, how about close your eyes for eight hours at night or something?
Michael Frampton
That's important.
Scott Bass
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Dark room.
Scott Bass
Dark, cool room.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. All that stuff. Yeah.
Scott Bass
Internet radio. Surf Talk Radio.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Why did you start it?
Scott Bass
Well, as you may know, I was at Surfer Magazine, and I was the online editorial director there. And this was around 2001, 2002. And I had always had a fascination and an affinity towards sports talk radio. Like, I listened to sports talk radio. I'm still, to this day, a big fan of NBA basketball and NFL football. And I'm just engaged in sport. So I would listen to sports talk radio and I'd be like, surfing needs sports talk radio. Like, why don't we have this? We could talk all day long. And of course, I'd be in editorial meetings and we'd be talking about, well, let's do an interview with Laird. And in those meetings I'd be like, we should just be recording this right now. Like, this is fascinating. You have four editors in here talking about Laird and all the way Kelly's doing this. And like, all of that stuff would, people would eat that stuff up. We need to just talk about, like, let's just have our editorial meetings be on the air. And of course, they all pooh-poohed it because they're all print guys and writers. Like, you know, like there's a lot of highbrow surf journalist wannabe snobbery going down, you know. I would literally, they are, surfers are the worst. And I would literally just go in there with my video camera and go, I'm filming you guys right now, you know. Like, we'd have meetings, I remember, for the big issue one time, the big issue of Surfer Magazine, which was a big deal back then. And I would just be filming it and just hearing all the ideas that were going on. And they'd be like, please don't put that on the internet, you know. So anyway, that's kind of where it came from. I'm like, we just need to do internet radio. Let's just talk about this stuff. You know, why are we so concerned that we have to bottle it up and only put it out once a month in print, you know? Like, that's stupid. And so I went to my boss, I'm like, let's do internet radio. And he's like, no. And I'm like, okay. And I just walked out and ordered all the equipment, just did it, you know. I was sort of frustrated. There's nothing more frustrating than being an online editorial person in the year 2000 at a surf magazine, where they're like, no, you can't have that picture. Every little picture they would hoard. And every little word and every little interview. They just wouldn't give you a dime. And you're like, you guys, there's this thing called the internet. I don't know if you've heard about it. It's going to be huge. It's the year 2000. Everyone's got high bandwidth. Guess what? It's on. Let's go. And they'd all just be super print consciousness. And it was just so frustrating. So I just kind of, I went rogue, basically. And I bought a camera. I bought video stuff. I bought all the internet radio stuff. And from there I just started doing it, you know. And then, you know, I did it for a while. And luckily, because I was at Surfer, I had all these pro surfers who just walked through the offices. And I'd go, hey, let's grab this guy and interview him, you know. And we'd do an interview. And it kind of took off. And Rob Machado actually and his uncle Ed were doing a show in San Diego here on an FM station. It was called Off the Lip. It was basically Ed, Uncle Ed. And Rob, when he was in town, would come in and do it with him. But Ed was like, hey, since you do this already at Surfer, why don't you join me? And when Rob's here, Rob will be here. But more often than not, it was me and Ed. And then one of the sales guys at Free FM where they were doing Off the Lip radio was like, hey, let's just do you over here at this sports talk place, which was another radio station that he was selling for. So then I ended up being on sports talk radio here in San Diego on Extra Sports 1360. And we did that for a while. And then eventually that, you know, that imploded. You know, there was no money there. Nobody in the industry wanted to support it, you know, because sports talk radio is—the industry is so incestuous. The surf industry. So, like, OK, here's what I want you to say about me. And if you don't, I don't want to talk to you. You know, whereas I'd be like, well, why? You know, like the thing that makes sports talk interesting is a little bit of conflict. You know, we have to have—we can't just make it all buttery and rosy and look at the great new Roxy thing, you know, or whatever. So anyway, the industry doesn't support surf talk and still really doesn't.
Michael Frampton
Why is that, do you think?
Scott Bass
Because, as I mentioned, it's just so incestuous. They're so protective. Well, it's kind of like if you're not going to put out the message that we have as the surf industry, we don't want anything to do with you because there's this evangelical notion that everything about surf has to be great. And if it isn't, don't talk about it. You know, and that—that's no fun at all. The fun stuff to talk about is the stuff that's not great. And so that's one of the reasons why, you know, and that's why there's really no such thing as surf journalism. There is no surf journalism. Surf journalism consists of, hey, Billabong's putting out a new wetsuit jacket. Let's talk about it. Can you do an article about it? No, that's completely boring. I don't want to do an article about that. Well, then you're fired. You know what I mean? There's no—the last bit of great surf journalism, as far as like print magazine, was the stuff that Brad Melekian did about the Andy Irons death. And he was completely ostracized from the surf industry after that. They couldn't believe that he would actually inquire as to the cause of death from the toxicology report. You know, like, so Outside Magazine took it and went, we will do this. Because, you know why? Because we are not funded by the surf industry. Billabong's not going to pull their ads. You know, if you did that at Surfer Magazine, you'd get a call from the Billabong people going, we're pulling all our ads for a year. Screw you. I can't believe you did this to us. And hang up on you. Not that they ever did that, but that's the kind of pressure that the publishers at the surf magazines felt. Basically, look, the surf magazines are a marketing vehicle for the surf industry. Why would you bite the hand that feeds you? I get it. It makes tons of sense. But that's why there's no surf journalism. You might get an interview with Steph Gilmore, but it better be nice and pretty. Or it better be, you know. But.
Michael Frampton
Isn't Fox Sports a marketing vehicle for team sports? Even when they're riffing on so-and-so was caught out with so-and-so doing that.
Scott Bass
Yeah, but—
Michael Frampton
Is that because of their team sports?
Scott Bass
Those sports have matured to a place where you can talk about that stuff. No, I think that if Serena Williams slams her racket and cusses out a ball boy at the U.S. Open, they're going to go, first of all, everyone saw it. Right. So it's like we have to report on this. Serena, why did you do that? And Nike can't go, I can't believe you asked her that question. I'm pulling my ads because then Nike is going to look like shit even worse than they already do with Serena doing whatever she did. So it's just so incestuous and small and our little bubble of professional surfing is so delicate and fragile and can be ruined at any moment that we've got to protect it. And if you're not going to evangelize about it—is that a word, evangelize? If you're not going to be evangelical in your framing of the story, then please stay away.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, there is a dark side to surfing.
Scott Bass
It's the best side. Ask Chas Smith. It's the greatest side. He's doing some surf journalism in sort of a fun, witty, cheeky, bomb-thrower type of way. Yeah. That's why everyone eats it up. They love BeachGrit. I go to BeachGrit. It's fun, it's amusing, it's sort of lighthearted, it's very tongue-in-cheek.
Michael Frampton
Does it ever taint your surfing experience?
Scott Bass
What's that? BeachGrit? No.
Michael Frampton
Not necessarily BeachGrit, but just learning or delving into the dark side of surfing. Do you think that affects your surfing experience?
Scott Bass
No, not at all.
Michael Frampton
Because I think a lot of—the thing is with a lot of other sports, I'm just going to guess, but let's say that 50% of people that watch basketball don't play it. And certainly don't play it on a regular basis. Maybe they played it when they were younger. But surfers, it's the only reason that we watch surfing is because we're surfers. People who aren't surfers, I can't imagine—what is it, 1% of people that watch surfing that aren't surfers maybe? I don't know. It's just—I guess it comes back to what you said, it's just not a sport.
Scott Bass
It's not really. I mean, it's an athletic endeavor that we like to see one guy do better than the other through this process of subjective judging. And I enjoy the heck out of it and I talk about it a lot. It's really the only thing we can report on.
Michael Frampton
But it's not even relatable for the general public. At least something like gymnastics—it's relatable because everyone has a floor. Everyone knows what it feels like to hang off a bar. Like, it's totally relatable and it's amazing. My God, that guy just did that on a floor. That's amazing. There's no way I could do that. Whereas the most general public, they watch surfing. Yeah, he did a squat and he went—did that. I could do that.
Scott Bass
That looks easy. I think that speaks to your thing about the wave pools. While there's a race to get as many of these built and get as many new people into this culture as possible so that we can get more people engaged in the sport.
Michael Frampton
Probably most of them would just—I mean, at 10 years' time, let's say there's four wave pools in the San Diego area. Most of the regulars probably wouldn't even bother going in the ocean because surfers are the worst.
Scott Bass
Surfers. Are the worst. There's going to be a wave pool in Coachella Valley in the desert within a year. That's sort of the kind of market that we need. We need one in Vegas. We need one where there's not—and when I say we, I mean the surf industry and the WSL and these people that are trying to promote surfing to the general public. They need to be in places where there aren't already a core fan base so that they can grow the fan base. I think that the dark side of surfing is really the only fascinating side of it. I mean, what are the greatest stories in sport? What are they really?
Michael Frampton
Well, I guess it's—you know, we put athletes up on a pedestal. And the only thing that brings them off the pedestal is going, okay, he's really good at that, but he's pretty bad at—he can't even maintain a relationship. He can't string a sentence. There is a dark side to it because the only way you get that good at something is by being very focused on it and only doing that thing for a lot of the time. So of course that's going to ruin your relationships because you're always doing that. And that's true with all great athletes. I think a lot of them, as they mature, they realize that and they fall back on the time they put into the sport as a younger athlete. But a lot of them don't.
Scott Bass
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
A lot of them. And the strange thing is we hold them up as role models.
Yeah. Like some quarterback who's amazing and has had 18 concussions and can't string a sentence. And then he loses the plot, hits someone, and we go like, that role model—he shouldn't have been a role model. Yeah. He's an animal who's had 18 concussions. You should appreciate him as an athlete, not necessarily as a person that you want to be like in normal day life.
Scott Bass
I agree. That just kind of speaks to our culture in general, right? Yeah. Why isn't there a Jonas Salk shirt that I can buy that shows my stoke for Jonas Salk and his ability to create a polio vaccine? You know, like, these are people that we need to lift up, right? Yeah. And that just sort of speaks to the consumerism, capitalist culture that we live in.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think if the dark side of surfing was highlighted, we would have a more balanced perspective on the athletes sometimes as.
Scott Bass
Well. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I don't know if you read Chaz's book. He's got that new book, Cocaine and Surfing. I haven't read it yet. He makes these crazy leaps that cocaine and surfing have this love affair from way back, and it starts in Peru, and because the first surfers were in Peru, even though they weren't considered surfers, but they did ride waves in after fishing. Anyway, so what he's basically saying is that it's not necessarily that cocaine and surfing have a love affair, but the best thing about surfing is acknowledgement of our dark side, that there are drugs involved, that it is a self-centered pursuit, that it's kind of selfish, that it's very myopic. And what the WSL, and he specifically mentions Paul Speaker, are trying to do is gloss over all that and just make surfing this NFL thing for the general public to wrap their arms around and go, look, isn't this wholesome and great? And that's okay as long as you acknowledge the dark side. And I think Chaz's major theme of that book is to, look, acknowledge the dark side. These guys were drug dealers. Surfers have always been outlaw bikers. For decades, we were looked at as the scum of the earth. And all of a sudden, within three years, you're going to turn around and make this polished turd and go, we're really lovely. You're going to love us. Enjoy the new WSL. So Chaz, that's kind of the theme in his thing is, look, acknowledge the dark side, man. This is who we are. If you don't acknowledge it, the whole thing's going to blow up. You can't hide it.
Michael Frampton
The problem is we don't acknowledge it ourselves.
Scott Bass
And we never have. Like I was mentioning, Surfer Magazine not going to do a story on drugs and surfing.
Michael Frampton
But even personally. I agree. Have you ever missed something that's important to other people because there was a swell?
Scott Bass
Absolutely. I've done some hideous, selfish stuff.
Michael Frampton
We don't admit that to ourselves.
Scott Bass
I mean, everything we do, every decision that we made was based on where am I going to get the next wave? And I blame John Severson, Surfer Magazine, volume one, issue number one. We're in the back. He says, look, the ultimate dream is to find the perfect wave. Go find your wave. Ever since then, we've been hooked on this concept of we've got to go find the perfect wave. And there's only one of them. And there's scarcity. My God. If you better. And so my entire life has been geared around, well, I'd like to go to Indiana University. But I'm not going to because there's no waves there. So I'm going to. So every decision—who I marry, where I date, where I eat, where I live, the car I drive, how I dress, the way I talk—everything's been dictated by one thing. The pursuit of riding waves. It's horribly sad. It's horribly self-centered. It's extremely myopic, as I mentioned. It's immature. And it's shackling. It's a ball and chain. I want to be rid of this thing. Liberate me, Lord. Let me go to Indiana and enjoy.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. I think even as surfers, we give other surfers a free pass as well. Because if you look at golf, right, look, if you go and play golf with someone that you want to go and do business with, and if they lose the plot on the golf course, you're going to second guess them as a person. But if your buddy is out surfing and he acts like a selfish surfer, you're still going to riff with him in the car park. You give them a free pass, don't you?
Scott Bass
You do. And I'm just—my own experience, my own, which is a horrible example because we've acknowledged that I'm mentally ill. But the reason that I would give that person a pass is because I look better than he does now. And on the golf course, I might not be—I might be like, God, I don't want to do business with this guy. He's a nightmare. Whereas in the water, in the surf realm, it's like, I'm better than he is. And maybe that's just me. Maybe that's how sick I am.
Michael Frampton
I hadn't thought that through, but there's something there.
Scott Bass
Yeah. Scarcity.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it must be. It has to be scarcity.
Scott Bass
Fear. Fear is the fabric. It's the thread that runs through the fabric of.
Michael Frampton
Well, that's the dark side of the preciousness of a wave. But that's why surfing is so unique and draws us in as well.
Scott Bass
You know what's great is the Hawaiians. Like, the Hawaiians have no sense of scarcity with surf. There's like, whatever, bro, there's going to be another swell. There's always waves. And it really is a part of their culture because they grew up—I mean, true Hawaiians, like Hawaiian Hawaiians. You know, not like haole Hawaiians that have lived there for two decades. There's plenty of scarcity amongst those. But I've met real Hawaiians that it's almost in their DNA. It's almost—and I think it is genetic because it's been—that the ocean and the concept of energy and the concept of waves constantly coming. And there's not this ethos of scarcity with them, with the real ones, you know.
Michael Frampton
Can you think of a role model, a surfer, who's a role model for being a balanced person as well as a.
Scott Bass
Conserver? Yeah, there are plenty of good ones. You know, there's guys like that you would—I could—there's a guy named Sam, I think his last name is Pai, or Pai, Sam Pai, P-A-E or something like that. Anyway, he's a guy I knew. I haven't seen him a long time, but he's a guy that comes to mind as just a super gentle, sweet, kind, loving, considerate water person. You know, so there are plenty of people out there that don't run their lives on the fear of not getting enough. And there are plenty of surfers like that, you know, they're out there. But they're extremely evolved, you know, like they're—for whatever reason, they didn't ever have to buy into the notion of, there's only a few perfect waves, bro, the perfect swell's coming. You better get the right board, you better gear up, you better make sure you're there. It's gonna be offshore in the morning, and you know, you're just like, so much anxiety. If you don't get it, you missed it, you know. Do you feel this? Sad, isn't it? Sad.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. When you were with Surfer Magazine, you spent a lot of time with some really good surfers. Yeah. Was there anything ubiquitous with all of those surfers? Like, what is it—is there anything you can point to that—why they were so good?
Scott Bass
Well, some of it might be this sort of drive that we're talking about. This single-minded, single-purposed, one road, one channel, I'm extremely focused on getting the next barrel. And everything in my life is geared towards making sure the next swell, I'm on it, and I get a lot of the waves that come in. So there is sort of a singleness of purpose, I think. Like, you look at Jamie O'Brien—I mean, Jamie was groomed to be a pipeline master. And that was his purpose, and he met that. And a lot of—and that's great, by the way. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's a neat thing, but I don't—you know, I don't know. When I think of great surfers, I think of guys like Rasta, who are evolved as human beings. And Rob's like that. Rob's an evolved human being. Dave's really evolved as a human being, you know what I mean? Like, he's got his shit together. And so I don't necessarily think of great surfers in the framework of, like, he's got the most trophies, or he scored the best points. Like, in fact, Andy Irons is a great example. Like, incredible surfer, great surfer, but is he a great surfer in my conception of what a great surfer is? Well, apparently not. I mean, he's no—you know, sadly, some demons took him, you know? Now, in the water, he's insane. I mean, talk about spark. And I mean, he's probably one of the best ever. Maybe the best ever. Maybe better than Kelly, as far as just raw—put him out there, and watch this Tasmanian devil go crazy. Like, he's just so exciting, you know? Andy was. But like a ubiquitous—like a one kind of thing that runs through all of the great surfers—I don't know, I don't really think surfers are that great. But again, I'm kind of thinking that...
Michael Frampton
Well, I was more meaning the highlights of them, of the surfing. Is it their ability to focus?
Scott Bass
Yeah, I guess it's their drive, you know? I guess it's their—that single-mindedness, you know?
Michael Frampton
But then of course, there is a dark side to that. Yeah, you see with Andy, he's one of the few that has been exposed to that.
Scott Bass
There is. There's a huge one. Yeah, we were exposed to his story. Yeah. Yeah, I think everyone's just a little bit different, you know?
Michael Frampton
And I'm sure there's a lot of other surfers that have similar stories.
Scott Bass
Like, I think of Clay Marzo, and I think, well, surfing probably saved him, you know? But I don't know the guy. I don't mean to speak—I shouldn't speak of people that I really don't know the full extent of what their story is. But what I've been told through the surf media is that, you know, he was certainly—he's certainly a better human because he gets to be in the water a lot. He's happier with himself, I guess I should say. That's what I've taken in.
Michael Frampton
I think that's why all of us are surfers, isn't it? We feel better once we've been for a surf.
Scott Bass
Absolutely. There is no doubt. We kind of started the conversation with that.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, we look forward to the next swell. I'm a—surfers are the worst, but surfing is the—yeah, the dark side and the light side.
Scott Bass
Happier husband, happier father, you know?
Michael Frampton
Best.
Scott Bass
Exactly. It's a two-part bumper sticker. The key is to just be liberated from... Can you be liberated from surfing? Like, are you going to quit? How old are you going to be?
Michael Frampton
I guess that...
Scott Bass
Will you be comfortable with yourself? What are you going to do, bowl? Maybe a lawn bowler? Maybe go to the pub and roll some bowls?
Michael Frampton
I enjoy doing that. Yeah, I guess—no, surfing's always going to be there, I think.
Scott Bass
Till the bitter end?
Michael Frampton
Why?
Scott Bass
I don't know.
Michael Frampton
Not?
Scott Bass
I've assumed that myself.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Scott Bass
I think it's an evolving relationship.
Michael Frampton
It is. Just like any other relationship that you have to something or someone.
Scott Bass
How old will you be when you own an 11-foot glider, Michael?
Michael Frampton
I'd—
Scott Bass
Good answer.
Michael Frampton
Like to get one now. I'm fascinated by that, actually. I only just discovered longboarding last year. Cool. That's the best. I wish I'd started a long time ago. Yeah, yeah.
Scott Bass
It's a lot of fun.
Michael Frampton
It just opens up those days when you're excited about those days. It's one foot and no one's out. All right. Yeah. Let's—yeah, the right board for the right condition.
Scott Bass
Go. Yeah, exactly. That's Mickey Muñoz, right? There's no such thing as perfect waves, just the perfect board for the conditions. I sort of butchered it, but that's Mickey's famous line.
Michael Frampton
Despite, surfers are the worst, surfing is the best. The ocean is unpredictable, the people in the lineup are unpredictable, but there's one thing that's consistent in surfing, that never changes, that's always there for us. It's essential. It's the surfboard.
Scott Bass
The surfboard, the philosophical icon of enduring youth. That was a setup for my marketing pitch right there for the Boardroom Show. Think about it. You're 90 years old. Let's say you're—even today—you're 37 years old. You're Michael, you go on a surf ride, you pick up a new Channel Islands, you put it under your arm. How old do you feel? Yeah. 15, like a grom. Like, you're just so psyched. You're just like psyched like a 15-year-old grom with your first surfboard. Surfboards have that ability to just make you feel so much—like I said, they're the icon, philosophical icon of enduring youth. As an old man, we're going to be able to pick up a surfboard and be so stoked. Just like, you're going to be able to pick up that super light glider and just be like, my God, I can't wait to ride this board. Let's go surfing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Your imagination just...
Scott Bass
It goes off with the surfboard. It's crucial.
Michael Frampton
It is.
Scott Bass
Do you remember the—I often say, look, we have no idea what kind of clothes Nat Young was riding when he won the 1966 World Championships in San Diego. But we know his board was called Magic Sam, and he was absolutely ripping on that thing. And when you think about, you know, some of Kelly's victories or some of Andy's victories, there's just moments in time are sort of plotted along the timeline by surfboards and surfboard design and famous boards like Tom Carroll's snap, that insane Rawson with that classic Tom Carroll spray job, you know. And that's just one example of many, you know—Tom Curren and Maurice Cole, reverse V cutback from the Tom Servais shot. There's just so—you know, surfboards are a part of our timeline. They're part of telling our story. They're part of our culture and they will be forever, you know. And that's kind of cool. And it's important that we don't lose that and that we don't let the surfboard become a widget, you know, a part of—like it's more than a commodity. You know what I mean? It's a part of our fabric and the people that make them, all of these people that we just mentioned—Matt Biolos, Pat Rawson, Reno Abellira, Dick Brewer. I mean, the list is endless. This is legends everywhere, right? They're all board builders. These guys are board builders. Mark Richards, four-time world champion, built his own surfboards. That'll never be done again. It should be, though. What if we have a tour where you have to build your own board? Think you're a surfer? You want to be a pro? You're going to have to build your own boards. We don't allow you to ride anything other than boards that you built yourself. That would be cool. It's just a little wrinkle to throw. I just thought of it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's probably part of the reason why he won. He was so connected to his board. He knew—he literally knew every curve and scratch. Yeah. Because that was his.
Scott Bass
Yeah. And he'll have that forever. He's a world champ that built all his own boards. It's pretty cool. Guy's a legend. Great style, unique, super unique and fluid.
Michael Frampton
So on that note, you better tell us what the Boardroom Show is. Because it's probably something.
Scott Bass
The Boardroom Show is when we bring together the surfboard manufacturing industry. It's kind of like our trade show. Every industry has a trade show. This is ours. And it's open to the public. It's a consumer event. And we bring, like I said, all of the surfboard builders. And it's an international show. We get board builders from all over. You know, Europe and Japan and Mexico and—and of course, California, Hawaii. We honor a shaper at each one. And it's just a big fun festival to celebrate the surfboard and its importance in our culture.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I had a great time.
Scott Bass
It was good seeing you there.
Michael Frampton
It's educational. It's inspiring. Like you said, even when you look at it, that's a strange looking board or that's a beautiful looking board. You hold it—it just sparks your imagination and inspires you to go surfing. Buy another board, which is an investment.
Scott Bass
How many boards do you have?
Michael Frampton
I've only got like six boards at the moment.
Scott Bass
I like the way you said that. I've only got... You're lacking. You're in need of more. You're not inadequate, Michael.
Michael Frampton
Feel inadequate. No, but I think broadening the quiver to suit a broader range of conditions better is good for your surfing.
Scott Bass
What are your boards? What do you have?
Michael Frampton
I've got a 9'3" Kennedy longboard. I've got a 6'6" step-up Channel Islands Proton for the waves of Goliath. That's good. And then a standard shortboard 6'0" for when the waves are good but not solid. And then a small wave performance shortboard groveller. And then I've got that Gary McNeill twin fin. And I've got the Andrew Kidman single fin.
Scott Bass
Cool. What's your board for Waco, Texas?
Michael Frampton
Probably the Bunny Chow. Yeah. Looks like a Bunny Chow kind of wave.
Scott Bass
I'm confused. I don't know what to ride. I don't really have the board for it, I don't think.
Michael Frampton
A small wave performance shortboard.
Scott Bass
Yeah. I don't really have that. I bought one and it's not big enough. It's not doing it for me. So I've got this tweener fish thing that Wayne Rich made me that I think I'm going to bring.
Michael Frampton
It looks like the kind of wave that you could ride any performance shortboard. Yeah. Plenty of draw, plenty of power there.
Scott Bass
Yeah. Matt's making me a board at last. Maybe it'll be done in time. We'll see.
Michael Frampton
Sounds like you've got plenty to choose from.
Scott Bass
Yeah. Too many, maybe. That's the problem.
Michael Frampton
That's what you want to do too. What do you want to do? I want to rip.
Scott Bass
I want to do what you're doing in Zunzal. I want to go bang with style. I—to Tom Curren. That's the vision I have. I'm like, okay, that guy surfs great.
Michael Frampton
There you go. There's the answer.
Scott Bass
Skimboard. Isn't that what he's riding these—
Michael Frampton
Days? Yeah. It's amazing. You've got the Boardroom Show, but you've released a new show, a new podcast.
Scott Bass
Yeah. Boardroom Show Podcast. The idea is to interview people in and around surfboards, surf travel. My feeling is surfers really only care about two things because we're myopic and selfish: waves and the equipment to ride them with. That's really the only two things that matter. The Boardroom Podcast revolves around that thought. If you have anything to do with waves and the equipment to ride them with, let's talk. I'm learning as I'm going. I've noticed that when I used to do interviews at the radio studio, I felt more in control. Now that I'm going—like you have come to my home—and when I'm going to people's businesses and sitting down and setting up, I don't feel quite as comfortable as I thought I would feel. I've been doing this for a long time. I've been talking in front of a microphone since 2005. It's a new beast. I'm still trying to find my way. I've been doing this for a while. You're probably pretty comfortable with it.
Michael Frampton
I know what you're saying. It's definitely more... I think that's part of the reason why Joe Rogan is so good at what he does. If you envision going to his studio and sitting down in his studio with his equipment, the pressure is on you. Exactly. I'm sure once you start talking with him, a lot of that falls away. You just know you've got to be on your A-game.
Scott Bass
Yes, you do. When you arrive at somebody's scene, you've got to be on your A-game. Are you on your A-game today? I don't know. We shall see.
Michael Frampton
Scott, we should do this again.
Scott Bass
Absolutely. I would love to do it any time. I'm not sure if I bored your listeners or not. They certainly learned way too much about me that I want them to know. You've got to be honest. If you can't be honest, then you're not going to grow. I need to grow. A lot of growth needs to occur, apparently.
Michael Frampton
That's true for all of us. It's like a fruit tree, right? If you stop growing, you're ripe and you rot.
Scott Bass
Yes. You've got some rotting fruit and I've got some new loom.
Michael Frampton
Always got to be growing. Keep it balanced. Well, until next time, thank you for your time.
Scott Bass
Alright, thank you.
33 Surfers are the Worst - a chat with Scott Bass
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.