Holly Beck is a former pro surfer turned holistic surf coach and surf therapist. This is an in depth discussion about how surfing affects our psychology and vica versa.
https://www.surfwithhollybeck.com
https://www.groundswellcommunity.org
https://surfmastery.com/mens-life-coaching
A short episode featuring my favorite tip from Tom Carroll - Look for the detail on the wave. Pay close attention to the finer details of the wave, the wind chops, the secondary swell, the backwash, every bump, nook, and cranny. Look at the way the light reflects off of every small ripple, look to see where and how water is moving and where it is moving most so you can generate speed.
Episode 2:
iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000363823238
Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Vy2AwetfV04oHJeNK56Z3?si=8v2ocwxbS1CC2TFnsH6jiQ
Artist and creator of The Spirtited Man - Van Neistat and I discuss surfing, art, culture, mastery, flow + more.
Van makes artistic and entertaining videos that are philosophical, funny and inspiring.
Links to some of his work:
https://www.patreon.com/spiritedman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz_ETXDqdCU
https://spiritedman.com
How I dramatically improved my bottom turn in 8 days.
https://surfmastery.com/workshops
Devon Howard explains mid length surfboards, appropriate conditions for use, correct technique, the right size for you, their limitations, history of, how to duck-dive them and much more.
@devon_howard.
https://www.instagram.com/devon_howard/?hl=en
Inspiration:
https://cisurfboards.com/products/ci-mid
Devon surfing
Torren Martyn
Mikey Feburary
Alex Knost
Machado
Transcript
Michael:
Started and this is where I fade in my conversation with even help
Devon:
My legs are not super strong because I'm a longboard surfer and longboard surfers don't. We don't get down real low and compress out of things like a short board surfer. We're not using our quads or tush as much. I think we use more of our feet and our calf. You know, everything in here and in here is pretty strong because you're always if you think about longboarding you're really upright in your on one foot or the other because you're walking. When you when I go to one foot, I can feel my feet really dig into the floor. You know, and I think if I'm short boarding my feet are apart. My feet are strong, but I feel like more is going on. Here in my quads. So it's its just interesting how you your body develops based on the type of surfing you're doing. You know, if you're not as maybe well rounded, some people surf short board and longboard regularly you know they've got to cover it, but
Michael:
It’s an interesting segue into longboarding and how it can come from the feet. A lot.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
There’s something I've noticed now because I started longboarding about a year ago. And I got a nine three sort of performance ish longboard. And thought I was long boarding. And then last time I met you said, you suggested getting a different kind of board and I got a nine eight log from Wayne rich.
Devon:
Oh, nice
Michael:
And you cannot impose your will on that board.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
Because he just wants to do what the waves doing.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
So you have to listen to the board and the wave.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
And if you go and try and do your short boarding, or even performance, long boarding techniques, then the board just says no, and just stays we're doing so then yeah, I'm finding I have to really be aware of what my ankle was doing.
Devon:
Sure.
Michael:
And listen to the wave with my ankle.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
And then trying to cross tip that's a lot harder than I thought it would be as well.
Devon:
Sure.
Michael:
So I'm definitely becoming more aware of my foot and ankle years I learned to ride a traditional style longboard.
Devon:
Yeah, it's something I didn't think about a whole lot when I was younger, but then in more recent years, people have asked, How can I knows write better and then like, wow, okay, well, let's start thinking about this and just walking around on the floor, trying to show someone a technique that you start realizing like you just said, there's a lot going on in your ankles. In all those. When you wiggle your toes, you see all those things moving in your foot, like they're all talking to one another. And I remember there was a guy 30 years ago at Cardiff. He made a balance board he was a chiropractor, he made a board call the chango board, and there’s been a million different balance boards. His was really simple. It was just like a one of those softballs. You go and hit it, the batting cages and a circular piece of plywood and you just cut a little hole in it. And you stood on it. Any gave me one wanted me to buy it, but I didn't bite so he gave it to me. And he said this will help your serve your longboard surfing immensely. And this guy is way older than we were like way older and he could. At the time, he was probably in his mid to late 40s which seems really old and but he was hanging 10 really well. And he was giving credit to this board. You know, like the when you're riding a wave you don't have that many opportunities to practice. But on land, you know when nothing's going on, you stand on this balance board. It will get your ankles and the metatarsal, all those things talking to one another. He would call he was describing it as like kind of firing up your engine down there like just getting things because you wake up in the morning. There's all that stuff going on with your body it's really heavy and if you've ever gone surfing and felt a little off the first few waves it takes you a few waves to get settled in. Standing on one of these boards, gets you almost often going immediately if you do it. Right before you go surfing you do it the parking lot you do in your living room. But in the back to the longboarding thing. It's having all the toes, ankles and everything. I mean you could describe it better medically but everything's communicating with one another and a lot of long boarding’s, finesse and balance and you know it's not these extreme power maneuvers, especially if you're into the traditional longboard surfing, that's on what we call a log or a traditional traditional longboard has no edge in the tail and real flat usually have a single fin and they're really stable in the water. And there's no rules but I think culturally and in the tradition of surfing, we've really valued clean, balanced surfing, you know, there's no like erratic maneuvers. And if we were to just walk around on the floor right here now and just kind of walk smoothly back and forth. You would feel everything's kind of happening down and your foot and your calf. I think if you want to learn how to knows ride, being aware of that, you could get there quicker. A lot of people want to know how to nose right now, like how can I figure it out? It's so hard. Aside from these balance boards, I would I would tell people to just pick kind of a straight line on the floor and just start cross stepping one foot over the other. And we're talking here so you can't see anything visually but there's also something that goes on as as each foot in a cross that moves forward and over the other is a shift of the transfer of the weight. When your nose riding. You don't want the weight of your body on the forward hip. So whatever's most forward, you know, let's say if you're a regular foot and you're going right and you're walking toward the nose of the board, the in that case your left hip would be the fluid hit. You really want the weight of your bodies more on your right hip and your right tush so that as you walk forward, even if you're standing on your left foot, yeah, so I'll see if I can do with this microphone. So if I'm standing the tail of the board and regular foot and I'm going right, I'll initiate the first step forward, which will put weight on my left foot into my quad. But I want to be leaning back because if I if if I go forward and I'm leaning in and leaning forward, on my right foot that's now in front of me. I'll want to keep falling forward. So when you cross step, you're always kind of a little bit of a lean like if you look at Joel Tudor are great nose writers like David Nueva. And especially you'll see this in women. Women are really good across stepping way that they're built physically, I think really helps this technique, which is the hip, forward foot so before I start cross stepping, in this case, it's my left foot, that would be the leading hip is going to go out a little bit. And then the back foot is now going to come over the front and I'm gonna do my first cross step. At this point, I'm in this sort of in between moment the weight is really here, but I want to as quickly as possible, get in move the weight and the strength of my body to this foot. So now I bring the other foot forward. I'm almost standing on one leg for a microsecond I'm standing on this leg in the weight is really in the back part of the board in the body, which would be the right hip and then it becomes a rhythm where I'm doing this over and over. So I start with the two feet together. I take my right foot and go in front of my left. That's the first cross step. And then this all happens very quickly. I put all the weight in that right foot now and I bring the left foot around in front of the other now I'm almost back into my regular stance again. But when I string them together, I'll move like this. No, you're going forward and you're in even when I come back when I walked back. I'm still keeping the weight to the back. The only time I go with my weight forward is if the board is stalling too much and I'm almost I can feel that I'm going to fall out of the wave. Then I can put a little bit more weight forward which really like push the nose of the board down and reengage but once the board takes off, if I keep all my weight forward, then the board might start sinking start plowing water. So this is why people struggle with nose riding as they're not quite sure where to put their weight of their body. And again, I encourage you to look at videos of people like Joel Tudor. If you can find videos of Casium Endour or are some of the ladies. I think they do some of the finest cross stepping. There's just something really graceful about their approach and I've never studied this is just observation but I think that the the female body with that lower a little bit lower center of gravity and the way the hips are really helps with this waiting guys have no hips, so we have to kind of push them out a little more and you'll see when you start looking at nose writing pictures, you'll see a lot of times that the forward hip is out toward the nose and that's creates this balance point. If we're leaning forward, we're sort of top heavy it's like a martial arts thing. It's harder to push someone over when they're down low and their knees are bent and they're kind of back. If they're forward and top heavy and if your lower legs ever get locked or bent. That can be that can be really dangerous too. And you'll see really, people that are really good at this their knees are always slightly bent just a little. You want to avoid locking the knees and you just want to stay loose. I think one of the good ways to get really used to cross stepping is like I said earlier, just pick a line. Like here we're on the edge of a rug. Anyone so I can just sort of just follow this and I'm doing it really slowly. But when you're really doing it you have to do it quicker. And in cross dipping, you can take really little baby steps, which is kind of cool and more difficult to do. The more steps you do to the nose, obviously more difficult. Initially when people start doing it, they it's almost like kind of cheating. They'll do like two steps. They do like these really big steps. They jump out really big to get there faster. That's fine for learning. You know, I think initially just to get comfortable. But for example, you know, if you're ever want to get to a level where you're competing professionally, the judge will look at that many steps as sort of cheating. You know, not many people have the goal of trying to be a professional longboard surfer in competition but if you you know if you want a guideline of you know, where do you want to go with your own personal surfing? I think if you're doing four to six steps to the nose, that's that's a good zone to be in. It, it looks and feels good and it's you know it's it's technically a proper nose right. The two step one is is really rushed. And it can actually kind of throw you off because you're almost leaping and jumping on the board. Just kind of disengages the trim line and can make the board a little wobbly, little shaky.
Michael:
Yeah, there's more time when nothing's touching the board.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
Jumping, right. Which is what I've been doing.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
But I've been just like shuffling not even crossed it. Just.
Devon:
Yeah, I mean, shuffling it's effective and it works. You know, there's no
Michael:
You get caught out though. Like if you're halfway through your shuffle and there's a bump at the gym. There's nothing touching the board. So you've gone. Where's the liquid crosstab and you still got that one foot there? Sure. So it makes more technical sense in that regards as well.
Devon:
Yeah, I think it does.
Michael:
And the way you described it is like it's more you're sneaking up to the front. Isn't it? Like you were sneaking try not to make any noise on the floor?
Devon:
Yeah. Yeah. And where I come from, in a lot of people I think appreciate that kind of surfing is in in the the height of the longboard era, which was 1966. Before the short board came along the year net after surfers really valued a polished, stylish approach. It was just you know you can look to a lot of other things gymnastics, diving, you know, ballroom dancing. There's real value in the perfect form, you know, and it wasn't until say something like breakdancing came along. That really changed the way you looked. At something or different types of hip hop dancing, where you're like, Whoa, that's not that sort of elegant find form ballroom dancing or perfect form diving. But it's also but that new form can also be really appreciated. And I think that's what you have a short board surfing, you know, you have Italo Ferreira, who does the craziest aerial maneuvers of the most powerful turns but you don't necessarily equate to the most beautiful style. I mean, that's it is a subjective term that could be stylish to somebody else, but a lot of people it isn't. And then you'd have someone like Connor coffin who's on tour and there's these beautiful sweeping turns that remind us of Tom Curren or Taylor Knox and then you have another type of surfing, which is longboard surfing, you know, and I think they can all be appreciated, but with awkward surfing, what makes it unique is nose riding. And that's the one thing I get questioned on the most is how can I lose write better and so the things I was just describing are helpful. But there's a few other factors I think that are really important to know. The equipment is is a major factor. You could give yourself a serious advantage by getting the right type of board just like with a short board if you want to do errs, there are certain boards that are better at doing errs than others. If you want to catch big waves or tube riding, there's certain boards for that will same for nose riding. And like I described to you board that you would enjoy would be something that's 9-6 to 9-8 for the average size person and it's a single fin typically is the way to go. You can certainly nose write really well. Little side bites, but not as well. And the reason that you want the single fin is it holds better. It's a much deeper fin it sticks much further into the water, which allows when you're out on the very tip of the board. It allows it to be anchored and held in without the tail slipping out unexpectedly. And then you fall on your face you lose your board and called swimming. And the other piece of it that's really just as important is the design of the surfboard itself. In the tail end if you look at any shore board, or most surfboards, they have what's called edge and the edge gives you release which is why those boards turn so easily and so well. On a nose rider if you take that edge off, what happens is the water comes up and over that rail and sort of hugs it. It's almost like imagine two little hands holding onto the tail of your board while you're out on the nose on the tip. You know it's like being on a a seesaw in your ad on one end, and there's something counterbalancing there's a hydrodynamic effect that happens with the way the water runs over the rail, that if you had edge the water would come off the rail in sheath off of it, which would cause release it would drop out because it doesn't have that the water comes up and over. And it's like hugging it really and that allows you to do those crazy nose rides where you see surfers where there's the front foot or two of the board there's there's no water underneath. It's like they're just levitating. And that's part of the dynamic thing about nose riding is with the single fin and what's going on with that rail. And where you position the board. You get one of the coolest feelings in surfing, which is to be out on the front of your board. And it's like you're out on a diving board. There's nothing underneath you and when you can get to that moment that level and do that sort of nose riding. It's it's right up there with to Bing I'm sure yeah, let's say to writings, the ultimate but I would say hanging 10s Right behind it, you know in terms of what what feels good like well, I can't believe I did that. So with the equipment if you are looking to nose right better. If you currently have a longboard and it has side bites or it has edge on it. You can nose right that board, for sure. But you're going to be doing more what I would call Hain five which is where the front foots up there, the back foot, maybe a foot or foot half behind you. That's a really nice feeling. But if you're seeing surfers they're doing that or they're hanging 10 And there's elevation under the board and they're high trim speed hauling ass and kind of arching it out there. You're going to have to get this other type of word of describing. And the last piece of it aside from the equipment is going to be positioning. So there's a little misconception that you just run up to the front of the board. It's just going to start you know, sort of hydroplaning or elevating out of the water doesn't quite work that way. You can those ride on the mushy flat part of the wave. But at best you'll be doing one of those hand fives in. You'll notice that the whole time you're doing it. You're almost just sort of plowing water the water sort of gushing out the side normal sometimes shooting up in your face. It's pretty messy nose riding. What you really want to do is take off a little deeper and you want to place your board high up into the pocket into the really steep part of the wave. You honestly think gosh, I should stay away from that part of the wave. Because it's risky. I'm going to eat shit. The board's gonna slide out. But the way that the hydrodynamics of these nose writer boards is they want you to stuff be stuffed right up into the pocket, high in the wave face. So let's imagine we're on a waste highway, maybe stomach high. Let's pretend it's Malibu, or a wave that breaks like that. You can tell by looking at the way there's the curling part. There's going to be the part behind there which is just whitewater in the flats. And then in front of the curl is a flatter part of the wave that will form into the curl. So this is all about timing. And you have to sort of like when you're backdooring a tube if you're looking for too broad. You can get barreled on the takeoff. Or you can paddle a little deeper and you see that the barrel is just a little bit further down the line. And you tuck in and kind of what we call backdoor the barrel. Those routing is a little bit similar. You want a back door a section almost where you want to anticipate it. So you want to look for that section where it's going to be really steep. And, you know, as we know longboard you can get into the wave very early. So before the waves even broke, you can look down the line and say wow, I think the waves really going to stand up you know, 2030 feet down the way. I'm going to paddle in and I'm going to start walking to the nose before we even get to that section. And I'm going I'm anticipating that it's going to jack up a bowl right there. And by the time I get to the front of the board, you're perfectly timing the section so that the board is in the high curling tight part of the wave and you're on the front end of the board. And it's kind of like that idea of sending it it's like okay, I have faith. If I'm going to backdoor to to I'm anticipating that I'm going to set this up, get in the barrel and exit cleanly, cleanly. But to do that with the nose ride, some would say it's similar to hacking in the air. You know, I pumped down the line. And if I have faith in my skills, I throw my board body into the air. But I know and I'm basically telling myself and communicating with my body. I'm going to learn this thing sustained with nose riding, you have to go into the nose ride. Knowing that holy shit this is kind of sketchy. It's really steep here. But you just say no, I'm going to stand up here. You have to tell yourself that. I'm going to stand up here and I'm going to pull this off. Where a lot of people struggle with nose riding, is they walk up kind of locked in timid and thinking to myself oh my god, I don't want to fall. I don't want to fall. I don't want to fall. What happens you fall because you're so worried about not falling. You look at people that knows write really well. It looks so effortless. It's because they're they're really letting go and they've done the work to get there the work is all the balance stuff you can do in your living room. You can do it on the floor with no balance board. You can get something like the indo board or some product like it. If you're crafty, you can just make your own and you can literally get a piece of wood and a ball and screw it onto the bottom of it and you being the physio business. You've seen all the different trainers that are out there. Anything that gets your feet and ankles and calf talking to one another is good training. There's a there's a lot of cool things that you can work on yourself. You don't need to hire a coach or professional. I think the basic balance training is.
Michael:
Going to add to that just quickly as most people think that the goal is to keep the feet still like even if you just stand on one leg with your eyes closed if people start getting worried about all the twitching in the foot, but the actual goal of the balance whether you're standing on one foot or whether you're standing on a balance board is to keep your head neck and shoulders still and allow your foot to make those final adjustments.
Devon:
Yeah, I agree with that. When I was a kid, my mom said don't flail your arms around. My mom was a surfer. And I didn't really understand that. I thought maybe it was because it just didn't look good or whatever, but there's a real function to it. So if the adjustments are happening in your ankles and your knees and your feet, those are kind of like your shock absorber. And if you can leave your upper body, maybe a little more quiet. It's less erratic adjustments need to be made because if you move and flail your arms around, it kind of throws it throws you off. That's why I think people really go out longboard surfing, so beautiful and it's you see the top surfers as they're walking to the front. Their hands aren't going up and down and moving all over the place. The hands are usually low and kind of near the waist. It's like anybody that's you got a Cirque silay or the you know any of those people that do the high wire acts their their upper body movements are really minimal and subtle. And a lot of what's happening is from the waist down, you know and it is a tightrope act in a way but fortunately his surfboard is 23 inches wide. Usually, you know there's a lot of room there. But I think it's what's important is to understand that it isn't one thing that's going to help you be the best nose rider. It's understanding how all the things we just talked about work together so the balance the toes, the ankles, wake everything up before even go surfing before I even get on the board. You can literally do this in the parking lot or on the say and you don't even need a balance trainer. I love what you said about just standing on one foot is a really great way to just wake up for any kind of surfing and then hopefully you have a board that is is in the genre that's described. And then you need to have faith in the positioning like you really have to believe that I can do this is as silly as that sounds, you know, sounds like something you know Tony Robbins or somebody would say but it works you know the psychology of, of faith that you've got the equipment and you've done some level of training to get there. Then you then you start getting more comfortable. Once you've nailed a nose ride in a really critical part of the wave. You understand that? It's It's almost easier than doing it in a flat part of the wave. You trained to make something out of nothing on the flat part of the wave. You're doing all this work. You're trying to get the board to do all the work. Let the wave do the work the wave can do. Like if you think about other types of surfing you do in short boarding. You can do just about any maneuver when you have speed. It's amazing like how hard you can hit the lip or how good of a cutback you can do when you have speed. You know when that's the same of longboard surfing, speed is your friend you know you want the board trimming at the highest most optimal speed it can be. So to do that. You don't you don't want to be low in the way if you're too low in the way if you're not in the energy pocket. You get a little bit mid face and higher. You notice the board starts taking off and hauling us that's the time when you want to start rocking up to the nose. It may feel like a time where you should get in safety mode, and hunker down and go oh man, I got to get around this section. But I would say watch a lot of videos go on YouTube. Go on Instagram think about the things I've said and now look at them happening. When you watch people doing it. I think that's really what's helpful. It's surfing today, where I didn't have a lot of things to watch. I could dig up a few old movies like the end of the summer but I didn't have all this education at my fingertips. So much training can be done just have visuals.
Michael:
Yeah.
Devon:
You know?
Michael:
Yeah. One thing that helped me a lot on that note is not just watching the surfer, because that's part of it for sure. But you want to watch. When did they start walking to the nose? What was the way of doing when they made that decision, rather than just watching them and also watching what's happening with we also focus on watching the surfer in the in the front foot of the board. But what's happening with the rest of the eight foot of the board and the wave, right and once you start watching what the way the way the wave is literally hugging the most of the surfboard and just encapsulating it and then you're just along for the ride.
Devon:
Yeah
Michael:
There's the faith thing, like walk up to the nose and trust that the board's gonna stick into the wave and that the waves gonna push you along.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
And then just make just keep your head neck and shoulders still in let your feet to the adjusting and enjoy.
Devon:
Yeah. Another thing too that I've personally found helpful is where your hands are and what they're doing. If you look at Tom Curren obviously the greatest surfer of all time. Look at Tom's hands. And it's almost like he's communicating with his surroundings with the hands. You'll notice that where they the wrists are bent, but the tops of his hands come more toward his arms. He doesn't bend his hands and in there up and out. In the hands will be kind of in plane with the wave. And there's like the space between the wave and his hands always when he's doing a bottom turn. When he's doing a cutback in the front hand is always aiming where he wants to go a little bit. The backhand is sort of like a stabilizer. The backhand is always kind of close to the body. And it's like a placement and the front hand is like a guide in when your nose riding. Try to find videos or photos of myself. You'll see what I'm talking about with the hands. I'm usually doing something with the hands it is not just because it looks cool. I mean that is bonus. It does look kind of cool. But there's a function to it. That helps anchor and settle in my body into a space that's really comfortable and in. I don't know secure is the right word that I'm looking for. But you just kind of locked in and it feels right. And it it's almost like if someone came up to try to push you on your shoulder to knock you off. That position I'm in is almost like a martial arts position. I'm like, I'm not going anywhere. You know, and that helps when you hit a chop or you hit a bump. Or maybe there's a surfer paddling in your way that you didn't expect. Now you need to back pedal off the board, but maintain control. I think what happens easily is when your nose rotting is something happens that distracts you. And then before you know it, your arms look like you're rolling up the windows and you're in survival mode trying not to fall and kill someone or yourself and so I think when you have that, that hand placement, again, people will say oh, that's just posing or it looks like you're just trying to look cool, but I think there's functional hand placement that ties this all together. You know, that's sort of the last piece of it to me. So, I don't know, I hope some of that info was helpful.
Michael:
Yeah, that's awesome. It's all in the details. And neurologically speaking if the hand is ready to catch a ball, that's when it's wakening the nervous system up. If your hands over like this, it's shutting it down. Literally.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
So when you got when you'd lie in bed asleep. Are you like ready to catch a ball? No, you like, you’re soft and everything's down and you might, you know, kind of nestle into a fetal position because you rest and relax. That's and then when you're like this, you're ready to catch a ball.
Devon:
Right. Makes sense. So.
Michael:
There's also an interplay between the foot and the hand as well. Especially even short boarding you go up you want to pull your wrists right back.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
And reacts, it helps your feet to dorsi flex at the same time as well. And this is the spatial awareness feeling from the hands. I mean, your hands are the other the most alive part of your body them all your sense. There's so much there's way more nerve endings and your hands and your feet and your lips than anywhere else in the body. So feeling spatial awareness, the way the winds moving through your hands, getting even just getting close to the wave, your closest sense of spatial awareness.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
And of course, it looks better.
Devon:
Yeah. There's, Have you ever talked to Brad Gerlach?
Michael:
No, not yet.
Devon:
I don't know if he's done with it. But he's been working on this wave key. And I feel like some of what we just described, it's gotta be what he's working on. Because you'll see I've just seen limited things and he's described it to me, but where the hands are moving with the body, you know, there's something to it there. That's it. Like I don't have any training and I don't understand why the stuffs happening. I just, I'm describing that through just sort of the natural process of doing it that become aware of that that is happening. But there is a deeper connection and understanding and explaining kind of like what you were just getting into and the physiological sense of what what's happening there with that connection. And when I think when you're aware of that, it helps you helps your technique. If you're, if you really appreciate style, it's also again, it's a bonus, but it's nice to have an understanding of that those things are working together. And the end result is for me if it if it feels good, it's certainly going to look good, but a lot of the style stuff is just feels nice, you know? So styles an interesting conversation because some people I think, would argue that there's too much emphasis on it and you know, hey, surfing should be about freedom of expression. And of course it should be and it should be about explosive maneuvers should be about progress, progression, whatever that means. On a personal note, I've just always appreciated beautiful surfing, no matter what decade it's from. If I saw someone surfing in the 30s or the 1980s or 90s you just it's you immediately see it. Like I saw a clip the other day of Margot Brendan Marginson it was like a really well known
Michael:
Yeah.
Devon:
Australian surfer.
Michael:
One of my favorites.
Devon:
And I don't know if it was the NSWL or somebody put up a clip as as they're going into the bills of it. They're kind of going back in the archive and looking at you know, state of the art surf style certain points in time and I was like, man, we could use some of that. Surfing that that style that he has, he just don't see it as much. Imagine taking what Margo is doing in mixing it with some more like he tillow where they can do these crazy maneuvers. But they're putting it together with this beautiful style where they still are drawing out these lines and the body and hand placement. It's it's hard to articulate it. It's just like really good music or really good wine. You may not be he may not have a sophisticated palate. He may not have the vocabulary to describe the music you're listening to and why it's fantastic. But a lot of these things, we collectively know it when we we see it, you know you feel it or you taste it. And I think there's a whole discussion there that you could go down one day about style.
Michael:
I've asked a few people about it and ask you how can you define style in one sentence?
Devon:
Umm, I mean to me, style, gosh, it's style for me when I when I pull up to a surf break and I look a check the waves. Style is an individual's way of to be of communicating surfing. It's a backup. I don't like the way I describe that. It's funny because I never I've never just really had to think about or describe style style. His style is just somebodies personal expression of surfing. So when I look. A lot of times people serve styles parallel their personalities. You know, I've seen really radical individuals who are either outspoken, like to party, really, really extroverts and I know those people and I see their surfing styles is oftentimes pretty radical. And I know individuals that are really soft, spoken, understated and have similar styles. They're just is really kind of quiet and smooth. That's not always the case. But it's interesting that a lot of the times the way we express ourselves surfing can draw a lot of similarities to our personalities or the way we move on land. It's interesting that that's very unscientific. It's just my own personal observation.
Michael:
It's a very political way of answering the question, because because the thing is when we asked what is a good style? We’re asking you to judge someone's style on you, because everyone has style. But we're implying that some style. Some people's styles are better than others.
Devon:
Yeah, it's style is extremely subjective. And I think it's it's as difficult to answer as what, you know, what is good music, and music is a really challenging thing for people.
Michael:
I agree. But on that note, I mean, music is a great analogy because you can have a style of music that you don't like. But if it's good music, you have to admit it's somewhat stylish. And I think a better word, and I think in terms of I think styles are the right word that I'm trying to get. I think perhaps rhythm flow and Grace are words that better articulate the style that we're judging. Because the difference between a mute you mentioned it alone is so dynamic and the performance surfing is off the charts. But you can you can have it's a low doing do an aerial maneuver. And then you can have John John do the same maneuver to the same amplitude John John just did with more flow. There was less Stop, stop.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
It was more graceful.
Devon:
Yes.
Michael:
That's the short boring thing over with in terms of longboarding I mean, flow rhythm, flow and rhythm are the words for me that articulate what you're looking for and style in a better way because that's what the waves doing. It's flowing in. It can't. It's water. You pour water into a cup. It takes the shape of the cup. It can't there's nothing else water can do. So when a wave hits shallow water it has to be rhythmic and fluid and yeah, this different speeds of that different styles of waves.
Devon:
Yeah. I wonder I'm curious that I don't know much I brought up dancing earlier but what I just always sort of think of longboard surfing and dancing in a way ballroom dancing, all this different swing. There's form and I'm trying to imagine if some if someone did those styles of dance and kind of what could be perceived as a bit erratic or not polished. They don't get work, they wouldn't get work and they wouldn't get rewarded. In surfing. We seem to be more flexible with that. Not always I think the majority of people really appreciate surfing that's smooth and polished and flowing and graceful. And it seems like the perfect approach in surfing when you're looking at a style versus the maneuvers is when the come together seamlessly. So John is a perfect example of doing these really progressive maneuvers. And the reason he came on the scene and we loved him so much was that effortless style. And he comes from the skateboarding world where that's really valued. The skateboarding culture is super into style and all these maneuvers coming together with flow and grace and feeling quite seamless. It's interesting with style when you look at a lot, you know, this isn't a nationalistic thing, but because there's an easy example of Brazilian style surfing. A lot of folks will point to Brazilians as not having the best style but having really, the most progressive maneuvers. But it's funny that even within the Brazilian community, there are a few of the Brazilians that have a grace and a flow that breaks away from that. So why is that? Why is that happening? We don't in the shortboard world, though, just to be clear, we don't. Style is not part of the criteria. Yet. It is, however, in longboard surfing, so I recently accepted a role to be the tour director for the NSWL for longboard. Surfing. It's hard traditionally, it's had one event a year, and that determines the world champion. So if you're having a great day, you could be the world champion that weekend. The obvious flaw to that is are you really truly the champion on one day? Well, technically you're by the ASP or NSWL but I'd say in the grander scheme of things from a philosophical standpoint. No, it's not as strong as if you were tested over a period of time, which would be a number of events. I think the Men's and Women's Championship tour has a dozen or so a year. You don't need that money for longboard surfing, but a couple would be nice. So now, this year, we've introduced four which is going to be awesome. So but in the criteria for longboard surfing, style is part of the criteria, which is really interesting. It's the only type of surfing within the NSWL. You know, the big wave surfing doesn't have that. As far as I know, it could be wrong. Airboard doesn't have that either. They have a things. What does it speed power flow is that that's more of the focus but it would be really interesting if style came into it. And it is up for discussion. You know, and I think it'd be interesting if the law in any way shape or form longboard surfing, could or would influence that decision that that remains to be seen. But it's really apparent when you're judging longboard surfing that the style grace and control. Those are words that are used in in the criteria. And if those boxes aren't getting checked, you can't reward someone is highly, but I love it. They're in there because I think that's I think that's what people want to see. They want to see. Really beautiful, stylish, Polish surfing, but at the same time while they're doing that doing things that are mind blowing, that are extremely difficult. Hanging 10 in the pocket in basically the wave barreling on your back, and you're hanging 10 it’s pretty awesome. Just as it's awesome to see someone doing a 54 in 8 feet off the top of the wave.
Michael:
Yeah, what's the this they're in the criteria flow? Maybe they should flow speed power?
Devon:
Yes.
Michael:
Which the waiting sequence?
Devon:
Yeah. So I mean, there's some work to be done there. But again, not everyone's too concerned about it. I think that a lot of surfing fans that are in the more futuristic progressive mindset. They just want to see futuristic progressive moves and not let style get in the way of that necessarily.
Michael:
Yeah.
Devon:
I don't I don't agree with that. But hey, that's what's great about the world. It's full of opinions and points of view, right?
Micahel:
Yeah, yeah. Well, you if you're, if you're a short border in your 20s you're not. Grace doesn't really into your vocabulary a lot of the time.
Devon:
No, probably not listening to classical music. You probably don't really care too much about fine wine, but you know, a good beer and a burger will do
Micahel:
Exactly, exactly. What's the best surfing advice you've ever had?
Devon:
Umm, the best surfing advice I've ever had would be similar to what we were talking about with those rights surfing which was you're never going to be a great news writer by trying to do it where you are, which is to foreign for the pocket. Tom Wagner, who is about 10 years older than me, he makes boards in Australia. He's an American that moved over there and married a local gal. He's based in New so he makes these beautiful old boards. And he said, you need to take off deeper and I took off deep he's like No, you need to take off deeper. And he pushed me deeper and deeper and that was a game changer. I went from being an okay nose rider. Just kind of okay, too, pretty good. And he gave me the advice that you just need to believe that the board is going to do the work, have faith, which is what we were talking about earlier. So I'm passing that on anyone who's listening here. Thanks. To Tom Wagner. It was a really simple thing. You know, but sometimes it's the most simple things that can transform their surfing experience.
Micahel:
What's the worst surfing advice you've ever had?
Devon:
Let's see the worst surfing advice. Man, that's a good question. I think the worst surfing advice I had was recently I don't want to name the surf break but it's a pretty heavy surf spot. And someone gave me advice on where to paddle out. And I had been watching for about a half hour and I had my own idea of where I should paddle out. And they said no, no, no, don't paddle out there. Had to paddle out this other spot and it was the worst advice. I ended up getting dry docked, scraping by knuckles, the bottom of the board of the reef and getting blasted back up on the beach and embarrassed in front of a bunch of people. That was horrible. And I don't think the person gave me that advice on purpose. To for that to happen. I think they meant for me to go out there. But they didn't know a whole lot more about when we were paddling out that I did. And so whenever I've gone against my own instincts, I've regretted it. And my instincts told me to pat it on at this other part of the break.
Michael:
That's good advice. Trust your instincts.
Devon:
Yeah.
Michael:
Do you ever run a short board?
Devon:
Yes. Not very often. I rode a short board from age seven to about 14. And then after that I got really, really into longboard surfing. But it's rare that I run a contemporary short board,
Michael:
Which is a bit of question if it's double overhead and barreling what sort of body on.
Devon:
I ride mid links which are not short boards. So my favorite range is this sort of 610 to seven Oh, you could call them an egg but I don't really call them eggs but the board's I ride are somewhere between a shortboard and an egg.
Michael:
So it's kind of like a step up. Although..
Devon:
No, it's more leans more toward it. You could maybe call a hype hybrid, which is it looks like an egg in terms of the outline. But the rail rocker is very modern. It has a hard sort of tucked edge has a little bit of rocker. It's not too flat. But the rails are quite what I would refer to as foil. I mean they're really finely tuned pretty thin. And that, to me is the perfect surfboard. I like that more than longboard surfing, if I can ride that every day I would but we live in Southern California, it's not overhead that often. So my rule of thumb is if it's under shoulder high right along board, once it's over shoulder high head high and above. I ride these mid like boards. I do like fish boards as well.
Michael:
Yeah. If you had to choose five surfboards for the rest of your life, what five boards would there be?
Devon:
The first one would be an 11 foot skip fry. It's called the Eagle and it's a big board. I don't recommend people ride them. They're really hard to ride. And they're what I call a black belt form of surfing they're really crazy rails or they're just really hard to ride I love I love the challenge the next one would be a 10 foot nose rider by Thomas Bexon. I really like his boards a lot. The model is called the keeper. The other board I would ride is the nine nine Keeper which is just a smaller version of it. I know that sounds silly to have to have the same boards but those are the best long boards I've ever written bar none. The other board I would have would be like an eight foot or an eight six gun. Something you would ride and like triple overhead type waves and I like to ride them with us. Two plus one single fin. The middle finger to be six and a half or seven inches and the side bites would be three and a half. And so that's four boards right? And then the other one would be a 610 hybrid sort of Egg Board which would cover my needs and just about any any area and that would be the it doesn't really matter who shapes it's just that style aboard so it's a lot of big foam boards
Michael:
The right the right board for the right conditions, right.
Devon:
Yeah. I think surfing is in a really awesome place. A lot of so I'm 45 a lot of people my age and older thing surfing is ruined, and then it's over. And, you know, it depends what lens you're looking at it through. We're never going back to what it was in the 70s You know, it was an amazing thing then, and not many people did it and it was really special. And I think if you're in the fishing, you can appreciate what it's like to go to a fishing hole that no one knows about. And in, there's something special about only a friend or two that you tell about it and bring them to it after they've kind of built your trust and that's that's how surfing was for a long time. And it is I have compassion for people that are frustrated with what it is today. I'm among them. I'm frustrated too. But I've in recent years I've shifted the way I've looked at it I've I really love surfing and I don't want to stop and I've put more of an emphasis on that. It is something that we can learn to share together. In not being overly romantic about it, but having a reasonable attitude. about it. You know, just two days ago, a beginner took off pretty badly right in front of me. It was a wave I'd waited for for a while. It was a frustrating moment, but I didn't. In the old days I probably would have yelled or something you cook whatever the things you are you do. But that doesn't work. Like what was what's it's difficult because I don't want to be the police and I don't want to be everyone's surf instructor but I know that I'm good enough and I'm going to go out and get another wave. And there's another day and more waves more waves come they always do. So in that moment. I'm just learning right I talked to people and just give them a heads up hey, you know he's trying to say something encouraging. Like it's awesome out here to tell you to try to not come at someone like you're ready to just tell them off because as soon as you do that no one listens. And they're going to be defiant and who knows what could happen. You could be talking to someone who is an ex war veteran who's been through hell, and they're just maybe they're out there as part of their therapy. Now you're just kind of setting them back again. So I talk to them and say hey, you know, this is the writing the most critical part of the wave. It's, it's awesome. You're learning what I think could be really helpful for you is see this part of the wave over here and if you work on kind of getting the basics down, and when you're ready to come out to this part before you take off. It just look over your shoulder. So you know I hate for you to get run into the vice versa for me to get hurt. And you come at it reasonably they go oh, well, thanks. You know, and nine times out of ten It's a pretty good experience that I don't go home feeling like shit that person does it. And so I think what's good about surfing today is that we have more information and more knowledge. There's a lot of really good things. You know what? We've lost the year you're only going to surf with two or three people I mean that that was lost, honestly, decades ago. What I like about surfing today is we have more knowledge we have much better equipment in the surf, the surfboards are so much better. I wish I had the surfboards that I have today. I wish I had them 25 years ago. And I just think in general we especially if you live in America, this is like one of the most amazing there's so many things that we hate about this country and people say bad stuff about it. But look around you like we're in the greatest time in human civilization. I mean, we can dial up anything on our phone, and it can be in our front door in two seconds. We are going to die from simple wound. There's I mean, I could go on forever. There's so many amazing things but we still go to the negative we'll still talk about how fucked things are and I think surfing gets pulled into that, you know, surfing gets pulled into like it's worse than ever. We've ruined everything. It's like, no, that's not true. You know, it's changed. But on the horizon, we have wave pools. I was really against wave pools. I might still be I don't know. But there's a lot of things on the horizon that are going to enhance our lives and make our lives better. The world and our communities is better because of surfing. You know, am I worried about foil boards coming through the lineup and saw me in half? Yes, I am. But I was worried about subs. I thought subs were gonna kill everybody. They didn't. We're still here. The world didn't implode. We somehow managed our way through it. We're going to manage our way through foils. We're going to manage our way through the next things which might just simply be ourselves. There's just a lot more of us. But I really I'm getting a little tired of the discussions in the parking lot and friends and everything about how bad it is. And I'm choosing to look at the things that are really great about it. And that is helping my life because I work a lot and so having still having surfing is an important piece to the whole puzzle of my own life. And I think people listening probably feel the same way and so the challenge for us is finding the joy in embracing the changes without losing our shit, you know, and it's it's a test and the way that we do it is to have just a bit more compassion that who we liked. We don't Are we that special that only we can enjoy this. That's kind of crazy that we are led to believe that and I'm among the people who have thought that over time that I deserve this more than you do. That's really quite horrible.
Michael:
It's almost your first instinct as a surfer.
Devon:
Yes.
Michael:
Because you will seeking solace.
Devon:
Yes, yes.
Michael:
But it's like it's it's still there. You just have to travel. Just take two plane rides and hire a car and go to where there's no one and you'll find perfect waves on tropical islands to yourself. You're like if you're willing to travel, it's there. You can't pull up the first point and go over 60 people and.
Devon:
It’s not going away, right changing it. You know, the only thing you can do, honestly, is manage events and experiences in a one on one basis. Like you can't manage the whole lineup. So if you can, you know if you have a perceived issue with someone who just kind of has your number like two or three times, they're riding in front of you and just sculpt them and say, Hey, I see we're going for the same waves can we work it out that, you know, when I'm coming down and like pay, maybe give me the break and move on to someone else, you know, like you have to it sucks but you have to kind of just deal with things on an individual basis and try to form these newfound alliances that are literally a day to day day to day basis. And it's hard, you know, it's really hard to learn how to kind of embrace and exist within this new world order of crowds. You know, it's like because the alternative is to get really angry and to quit the leap.
Michael:
It's the wrong if you want to sit wave at first point to yourself, then you have to see that wave before anyone else sees it and you have to pull in deeper than anyone else. So essentially, the bigger surfer who spent more time in the water looking at the details in learning how to drop in later is going to get the wave. Sure. It's like if it's if you go out there as a beginner intermediate expecting just to get a sit wave at first point then it's like you're a football player, and you turn up to an NFL game and think you can just join in.
Devon:
Yeah, and that's the challenge because the way surfing was introduced to people in different way, like a different way. Now it's quite accessible. Everybody's a surfer, you know, they you get those quizzes. What do you do and check the surfing box quite easily. And the barrier of entry is really low. And before it was quite hard, nobody would teach you tell you anything. You'd come down the ocean, you know literally had your aspect to you wash you back to the beach. And not one person out there is going to tell you how to paddle out or what to do is like they'd look and laugh Good luck. But now this sort of school surf shops are so much info. But the one piece that's still hard for people to get is the the cultural norm that that's where people might my generation and older. I'm generalizing here, but that's where we struggle is. You go to a place like Malibu or any any break like it and you just look at the lineup and there's 100 people and 20 of them know what's going on. 80 of them don't. And you're still hoping that they would understand the cultural new norm but it's it's so beyond what we can manage. I just I'm like I'm I don't have the answers. I don't know what it is it's, I quit or I get super angry and getting, you know, brought to the edge of a fistfight all the time, which that that's how a lot of people are dealing with it. That doesn't end well either. I've seen people go home in the sheriff's cars. The only way I tried to do like I said is on a case by case basis. So they go well, you don't on the ocean. It's anyone's turn. I'm like well that I see where you're coming from but there are cultural norms out here just like their land. You know, and I just say simple things. Like if you go to the deli or you go to the coffee shop and there's no numbers. How do you know whose turn it is? Why just you know, that person got there before it's the same thing. You know, there's spatial awareness like you just caught away, you came out and you went by everybody. Sit down and look behind you and realize, wow, there's a dozen people here, who are up next, have the wherewithal to allow some waves to go by that spatial awareness. That's the same as if you went to the deli or the coffee shop and there was no queue. You kind of know what's going on and it's the same thing. And they go Oh, really? Yeah, but yeah, it's something
Micahel:
Yeah, well, if you want uncrowded ways, don't so first point go to Zuma. Like the ways I'm going to be as good but.
Devon:
Right.
Michael:
You'll find solace.
Devon:
Absolutely.
Michael:
In this I get I sit by myself almost every day in Los Angeles just because I know where to go. So in I'm willing to maybe walk five minutes from a car park rather than three seconds. There's, there's lots of little things you can do to.
Devon:
How dare you take personal responsibility? Yeah, you have to take responsibility. And it just the whole like complaining about how bad it is and just gave up a little while ago because it didn't change the outcome was still the same, like those people are still there. You know, so, again, you just try to work it out with people individually. If you want to serve first point all the time, you'll get to know the regular people, they'll get to know you. And they'll stop dropping it on you but they'll just drop it on the other new people. But like the point of all this is though, I'm quite excited about surfing today. I think there are a lot of really amazing things that are happening and to be freshly turned 45 and still be excited. I didn't I never predicted that when I was a kid. You know, you just sort of figured at some point you'll just be kind of fade out of it. And honestly, a lot of my friends and I grew up with how there's not many of us left. But I saw a drill tutor the other day and its like, man, we're still doing this. Like we're still surfing at a high level and we're still probably more stoked, like honestly. We would have never imagined being this excited about surfing and still looking at design still finding surfboards that can help us improve our surfing. You know, at age 38 or 9 I found a surfboard from Tyler had Zika and that transformed me it was another shift, you know where I didn't know that I could do certain things on a longboard. And that led me into a whole other path of going deeper and deeper. And even to just a few weeks ago coming up with an idea in my head with Thomas Beck's and asking him to try something. And he made himself on the code. This is pretty cool. You know, we got some really good results out of it. Some things it did better and some of it didn't. So there's a little bit of back, backup off some of the things and go deeper on some others.
Michael:
Very cool.
Devon:
But yeah, I think getting really excited about your equipment and understanding what it does. It's good for your surfing, you know, and there's a lot of really good board builders and brands out there that offer a lot of solutions. So if you have an idea, reach out to your shaper and ask them about it. You know, find out if that's the right way to go that back and forth is really engaging draws you into surfing even more.
Michael:
The future's bright yeah all right. Thank you so much for your time.
Robert "Wingnut" Weaver didn't start surfing until he was 17! How did he get so good, so fast? All is revealed in this episode. Wingnut also generously shares his surfing wisdom from decades of experience as a surf coach and guide.
https://buellsurf.com/
http://www.surflight.com/
Transcript
Michael:
Why did you agree to do this podcast?
Guest speaker: Wingnut
Yeah, one learn how to do so zoom. You know, I'm a huge fan of, I guess surf instruction, surf coaching, trying to help people get better at it and you know years ago I did. I started the O'Neill surf Academy in Europe, with Richard Schmidt and I did that for O'Neill, Europe, and we ran through seven countries over seven weeks. And we did 50 kids each day, five, five days in a row in each country and then we would move on. So it really helped me understand how fun it is to get people involved in our sport. And back then, you know, there was all this the brand battles whose cooler O'Neill Quicksilver, you know, Billabong, and I thought it was more important to get more people into the sport. And then the brands could later differentiate who was more important to them. But my marketing background convinced me that if I could get the kids that were under 15, dialed into O'Neill because we taught them how to surf and they can't get there without their parents. So that means their parents at the end of the year when they're buying their back to school clothing, if they're debating between Quicksilver and O'Neill, while the O'Neill guys taught my kid how to surf. So I had the pre-teen and I had the parent with the money dialed in on Neil and I had the kids hooked on surfing to the rest of their life. So that's kind of how I got involved with you know, teaching people how to surf.
Michael:
That's what you still do today. Correct?
Guest speaker: Wingnut
Yeah, so my primary awkwardly said source of income is I guide private surf trips and I do coaching.
Michael:
Do you still work with the younger? What's your typical client?
Guest speaker:
Most of my clients are adults, and then it's their children that get involved as they become more involved. I mean, kids are brilliant because they've never learned failure. Right. As you get older, you learn there's things you can't do. Or that they're hard to do. Whereas the kids like you can do it. I can do it. Right. So kids pick up any sport at any time, and they've got unlimited energy, unlimited time and unlimited resources thanks to their parents. Whereas the adult, has a job has a family has all these things. That restrict their time and ability to progress in the sport.
Michael:
Do you think that's the biggest barrier for the adult or someone coming later? And is it the biggest barrier, the time factor for getting better?
Guest speaker:
It's 100%. They're supporting themselves, their family. I mean, if you're an adult that is married, then you're immediately after your time has gone committed to your spouse, you have kids that it's even more so because it's your responsibility to provide for them to be with them to be part of their growth. Your growth starts to take a backseat the lock the larger families,
Michael:
Also, so when you're training clients, you're on a trip with them, so you get a little bit more of their time.
Guest speaker:
It's both ways, right? So I have local clients here in Santa Cruz. They're here when they're here for two or three hours. They're all mine are all focused. But when we're on a trip that it's totally different than we can be working in the morning on physical stuff. We're talking diet, we're talking where we're going to serve. We're reviewing images of the day before serve, and we'll get two or three searches a day while we're on a trip.
Michael:
Yeah, I mean, you've been doing this a long time. You must have been one of the first surf coaches to really you know, step outside of training the groom, who was the next up and coming.
Guest Speaker:
Right, right and for me there. I don't think it made sense for me to try to teach an up and coming groms First off, my specialty would be longboarding, and there's really not a career path that way. So why would you come to me for that? And there were a great surf coat. But back when I was doing it started 25 years ago, there was nobody doing that anyway. It was just abuse from older good surfers, that's how you train Groms right but the retired Pro are still existing pro he found a kid that he thought was pretty good. And he just harass the shit out of them until they got even better. And it was that abuse from a higher ranking peer that made you a better surfer.
Michael
Yeah. Yeah, there's certainly there was an initiation.
Guest speaker:
Right, right. You want it to get to the point where they stopped giving you shit, right? And that's how I think that went on. So when I started doing my first trips, it was It wasn't so much about coaching at that point, as it was about organizing a trip. Somebody wanted to go to Costa Rica for the first time and he knew I had it dialed in, somebody wanted to go to you know, Fiji, Australia, you know, the Maldives, whatever. And they came to me to put together trips, but while we're on those, then the pedantic wing that took took over and I was you know, you're doing this wrong. You're there's an easier way to do this. You know, you suck.
Michael:
Yeah, it's, that's, I mean, that's what's in the, you know, the hunting culture. It's outfitting right?
Guest speaker:
Right!
Michael:
And that's, that's the smart way to do it. I was just previously living in Malibu and that's what you know, I was always a surf coach standing on the beach filming and, and then when I went to live in Malibu, people didn't even want that. They just wanted me to go surfing with them. So I was the surf guide. And then I could talk about and for me, it was like, if someone hesitated on a wave. I would then so where else are you hesitating in your life? Now as that's the sort of approach that you have with your coaching to.
Guest speaker:
Well, let's not talk about the psychological aspect because I really have to rate raise my rates. If I got paid for how much time I talked people off the ledge of the realize.
Michael:
Well, it's I mean, any good coach,
Guest speaker:
Right!
Michael:
I think has done well.
Guest speaker:
And that's it. It's a level of trust, I think that you establish with somebody you work with, you know, it's not a one-time session, hopefully, right? That didn't come to you to figure out how to take off next to the rock, you know, at, you know, at Rock view and figure out can I get right next to it? That's a one-time thing, right? They're coming to you to fix a bunch of problems, and half of them are mental.
Michael:
Well, I think someone's surfing and the way they interact with the ocean is a reflection of what's going on in the rest of their life.
Guest speaker:
I think that's absolutely correct.
Michael:
Let's shift gears back a little bit and to ask you through your professional surfing career, you personally, do you remember any, any plateaus in your performance and your skill level that you managed to get over? And do you remember how you got over?
Guest speaker:
I think there were there were two major shifts. I think that were for me most noticeable in my career. And what run it was funny because it's not really I don't even think about it competitively like before Endless Summer, because I was just you know, chipping away at getting better and better at what how I wanted to ride a longboard, and I was competing in the club events. There wasn't a pro tour at the time. There was NSSA and things like that. But the club events were great and I was doing those and having good success with it. But I think what really happened was the experience that I got traveling around the world doing analyst summer to give me a broader experience with waves, wave types that I'd never seen before. And so I had to figure out how to ride waves. I mean, I grew up riding long boards in California, right? That's a pretty limited style of wave. I'm going to see beach break sometimes big beach break when we have a good swell and otherwise point breaks. So it was a really limited experience that I had. I mean, I did live on Oahu for two years. And so I had a little bit of Hawaii and North Shore experience, but in the summer to getting to go to places and I think this is what kind of patterned my career was I got to serve G land with Gerry Lopez, I got to share surf Jeffrey's bay with Shawn Thompson. So I was given the guide in tutelage of the best ever that had served that place. So that immediately elevated my game, because I wasn't there just figuring out how do I ride this wave better I was told how to ride the wave better. And so that one coming out of endless number two, I think I was 10 times a better surfer going in and going into it.
Michael:
Interesting. Yeah. So it's not just experiencing different waves, but getting to surf those waves with people who already already knew it already made the mistakes that they saw you about to make and they
Guest speaker:
And literally literally G land is a great experience because Jerry would sit out there with paddle call and I and a set would come in and say right like pat you go in number two, I'm going to go and number three because it's better wing that number four is not too shitty. You can have it and Laird is going to take whatever he wants. So everything was like he he set us up on waves that we should be able to succeed on. And for me, what is the number one thing I do when I'm guiding people is it's wave selection, right? We've seen enough waves to know whether that wave is going to be mapable all the way through for the skill level of the surfer that we're working with. Right? Kelly can make anyway but you're not Kelly are a unique one that has a little bit of a softer angle, softer edge and you're gonna make that one and you will learn so much by making it and then when you want to challenge yourself I'm like, go for it. And you'll find out why you didn't make that wave and we'll talk about it when you come back. So I think being set up that way for me by having Shawn do that by having that do that by having Jerry do that. It helped me figure out a great way to help people serve.
Michael:
That's, I mean, that's priceless experience for sure. And is that a lot of what a lot of your coaching is just helping clients with a wave selection.
Guest speaker:
It starts with that right? You know, you got to pick a really good way before you can have a chance to serve really well on and one of the things I see most people do wrong. It starts out with their initial positioning right. Using a lineup? I mean, you know, I, I'll say it right out front. In Australia, the quality of surfer is way higher, the skillet was way higher than it is in America, it's no question about most competitive surf lineups in the world, you really have to have your shit figured out. So it's a lot less. So it's a lot more recreational here. And the biggest mistake people make here is they don't use a lineup. When they serve, they don't figure out where the good wave breaks from, and what it looks like. And so they don't go back to that same spot where success starts. And so that's the first thing I tried to like drill in, is figure out where the mapable wave starts. Then the other work of writing it comes in afterwards, but give them a give them a starting point with a high level of success.
Michael:
Yeah, triangulating your your position. And you have to do it within.
Guest speaker:
Yeah.
Michael:
I mean, I remember I lived in an Avalon surfing little me. And, man, the takeoff zone is so small. If that if it's it comes in, you're out of position.
Guest speaker:
Right. And that's what I like. And again, for me, it's like it's like absolutely a secret gift. And I don't give it to anyone, like the normal crew that I served with, like, I might paddle past you, I still recognize you're there. And it's your turn. But I'm going to where I'm going to take off on this wave when it's my turn. So like getting people, my my guests comfortable paddling past people. I'm like, Hey, we're not Adam, say hi all this and that. But we want to sit where the perfect wave takeoff is. And they will go for their wave. And you know, you're taking turns with a smaller group, right? There could be 30 people in the water, but you're taking turns with like five or 10 that are in the best takeoff spot, right? You're not taking turns with 30 or 40 people.
Michael:
It's a really interesting point. Because I think that for the adult beginner, there's a lot of timidness that stops them doing that. And they just sit in the corner and they wait their turn, and they get the leftovers.
Guest speaker:
You did know then…
Michael:
Yeah!
Guest speaker:
If you're if you're down 50 yards from me, you're not getting a turn, I can't count that far, I can count to 10. I've got the 10 people around me, I'm pretty sure whose turn it is as we go back out, you know, and that and that's what I work with, go to that right spot. And then being confident about your turn, like you've waited, everybody in your circle is gone. And somebody just comes back out sits just on the other side of you and spins for that wave. It's not as turn, you know, it's you. But if you don't initiate and take your turn, that person is going to think they can always do that to you. And that's the other thing. But I I like to say that you make an aggressive first move, and it'll stop 50% of the surfers in the water.
Michael:
Yes, that's true that the guy that pedals out and takes every wave. He's doing that because everyone else lit him.
Guest speaker:
Right. Right. So don't let him go and hit the don't let him do it to you.
Michael:
Yeah, and I think it's, it's so scary because you think you're in your head, you're surfing, you're new to surfing, there's all this surface here and you you don't want to pedal past someone and sit up there because you think, oh, no, he's gonna yell at me and tell me it's not my turn. But so what if he does, and you say, Hey, buddy, I'm sitting here, I'm not going to take your turn. We, this is my spot, that's your spot. You just have that conversation with the person, right? And then they respect you.
Guest speaker:
That's, that's what people don't do. Right? Is they don't respect that other person enough to say, you know, and respect their position. It's like, hey, you know, I mean, if it's just sitting on the other side of them, I wouldn't do it. I would sit just shorter than but if you definitely want to sit 20 feet past him, you paddle by him and you go, boy, I just had a good one. You know, I hope you get one to say something that acknowledges it's his turn. Right? It's the other surfers turn. And then I'm just gonna go hang out here till you get your great one. You do that. And also the lineup becomes a lot friendlier, because when they come back out, you're like, how was it? Did you have a good one? All right. You know, hope I get one next, you know, I mean, that's what we tried to do. And you can calm the level in the lineup equipment.
Michael:
Oh, it more than that. I think that if you do that, you earn the respect. That reminds me like you funny you mentioned Laird, I used to surf out point to him and I used to love sitting on I love big boards, and I'd sit right on the boil that point dune and this will lead sets. And of course he just pedals out catches away. That's what it is that what he does. And in one day, I don't want to say hi to him and be friendly, and it never respond to me. And then one day, it was my turn and he went and I'm going, it's my turn. I went and we surfed and he came out back and he said something to me. I was like, Oh, it's right man. It was my turn and I stood my ground. And from that moment onwards, we chat were friendly.
Guest speaker:
Yeah.
Michael:
I earned his respect by standing up whereas if you don't do that, people like lead will run all over.
Guest speaker:
They will just eat you down there right. So what is apex predators, right I call us apex predators. Right, we know what the good wave is you can take any wave you want at any time. So and we see other apex predators, we understand them. And then we've got to be nice to the other surfers in the lineup to a certain extent. But like I said, if you're going to sit 50 yards down the line, it's, it's going to be you're just too far away. You might as well come up and grab me and look little bit because then you're in that circle of 10 that you know 10 Or 12 that are going to get the wave So position and the company in taking your position is important.
Michael:
And then also you may Before like traveling around and surfing all these different waves that reminds me I remember the first time I went to Cloudbreak and Padlet like I hadn't served thing like that before in my life and it was double overhead Cloudbreak and apparel again and I looked down and it's crystal clear water and it's two foot deep and all you see is Coral Reef and the way It's moving so fast and you just think There's no way it's too fast it's too heavy it's too to shower What am I doing here and then Have a letter like You finally take drop you commit and then You go over the you know this plateau You serve Cloudbreak and it's amazing and you get used to it But the cool thing is when you go home you surf those waves that are a little slow So are you So much more comfortable tight the wave slower time slows down And to me that was a Big plateau and my server too is traveling to some of those spots
Guest speaker:
And I think you know I break is a good example and it happened for me When I lived in Hawaii and I did familiarity breeds contempt If you sit out there long enough Looking at That way that scared the shit out of To win you have to have the boat it'll start to look Like you might be Go to do it and you'll see something Like I I'm as good as same if not better and he didn't die I am like I could take off there I like you just watch it enough that you're like I can do this and say It slowly pulls you into it And yeah when you come home you feel like Superman. And it's like nothing can kill me. Yeah trust me slower than Cloudbreak when you get home.
Michael:
Yeah I remember the first time I went to Feel the water to and it was it We need to seek and swell and it was The thing is you want to to so many Ever surfers out there just having a Craig and you realize Oh they don't get a good it some of them would get washed in and whistle but…
Guest speaker:
A pistol survived so like even the worst wipeouts not battery Cloudbreak actually He has a pretty you know if it's low tide problem but you know I mean when when we made the movie There we filmed at low tide right As the light was perfect so we had implique dry reef inside of us This was before the jetski era So I everyone I am paddling in less than a foot Have water I'm trying to pull my arms flat underneath me so I can So you know traction I get on on the tail of my board so I can get the nose up and try to do a while Brought her client and then paddled frantically trying to get out over sets It was absolutely terrifying.
Michael:
And you're on a low boat.
Guest speaker:
Yeah There's no duck died I mean O'Connell With duck diving and he was stuffing his poured into the reef yet pieces of curling up bottom of his board I mean it was like at that point they didn't Even surfer that low tide we're talking 27 years ago Got Kelly had had This was a lot Long time ago I mean I was I watched Cal He and Tom push each other deeper and deeper and deeper I mean Jeff Clark and Jeff Jeff booth Sam on the side you know he was definitely deeper the bad night but like he would talk about how amazing where they were taking nobody had pushed that far up for and boot he was one of the you know early Cloudbreak guys It's just one those two guys was amazing.
Michael:
Can't imagine with any other plateaus that you can remember in Europe Efficient career.
Guest speaker:
Right so after that I think it was the time that I spent Mark Martin has said So Mark was is one of the best surfers in the 90s 60s early United States he was part of that free nice degeneration came out of harbor surfboard And because you was not a participant in the counterculture of drugs kind of got left out of that seven These serve History thing but Mark was One of the best serve History The Transition era and so Mark ended up becoming more Professional and kind of getting out of the surf industry But he came back when Robert August talk him into coming back and making surfboards for Robert August and He was always an idol of mine but Because the train are so special and what he wrote harbor surfboards in his style was always something that really appealed to me So with Robert bringing more back and we started doing these trips to Costa Rica I got to start With him personally and I got to really watching steady A a really powerful thing Will fan pocket stop Out of surfing that really appealed to me and He was a phenomenal nose writer So spending those two or three years after the movie with Mark sir On a regular basis with him down at Coast rica it kind of opened up my eyes different equipment and you know he just explained to you To me that I didn't understand and so My surfing gun better out after that so that was it movie 92-94 Okay out so by by 2000 I think my surfing had really reached brand new level of work All right where I liked it going to be
Michael:
so just so Surfing with other surfers
Guest speaker:
With somebody and again you Some people can learn by reading I'm a very visual learner I can see someone do it I mean heatedly like gravitate to watch them and study them in Surf with them I think I did that early on my career when I was you know career when I was learning how to surf and You've heard there are a bunch of really great surfers in the black is era area I did not know who they were at the time I didn't realize how good they were in the old We're all lexicon of surfing But so like Kenny had a really rate drop me Don was the best news writer I saw all these guys had things that I wanted you know to get better app and I I would just dog them whenever they paddled out And I would just hang out with them and watch and watch and watch until I figured out how they set up a tour and how to set up a note Whether positioning was opponent has studied it by Watching so I did that when I started here Going out with more than seven.
Michael:
okay so you're So if nerd at heart analyzing things.
Guest speaker:
I'm a historian junkie for the equator man who was writing right at What wave and how things were being done.
Michael:
David Reynolds talk to me and then to about watching people that That's about watching the details tourism
Guest speaker:
It's the little things right you I mean you want to see like how How'd you know are they forward on the board are they new Are the tail you know are they on the end side rail outside rail where's the weight shift where's our hands upper body didn't move at all but you just see what his knees did And there's all this stuff going on There's less than Move it up on the board when you're ready smaller boards but with a bigger board words I mean you're moving constantly there's These shifts side to side Front to back there's all this stuff going going on and then you're trying to keep the upper body completely quiet while it's going on As opposed to smaller boards It's a complete wind up in Release the upper bound It is so important in The whipping and turn Are the board sent home Were the boards this way and the upper body is already transit isn't around to where the next destination is so it's a completely different style of watching with the with the box It does when you're looking at how it's somebody is writing a longboard versus a smallboard.
Michael:
Did you start Short boarding?
Guest speaker:
I've never written a short board What was your firstborn I was gonna say as my son has taken my longboard away from me and made me go is now I know why Trump voters were angry rate we're up to here and 50 degrees Water I'd be angry too My first surfboard was a 960 a sweet surfboard that you Used to be a cocktail Tiki sign in bar that my wrestling coach gave I started surfing when I was 17 years old.
Michael:
Oh, you started late.
Guest speaker:
I was a body surfer I grew up Newport so I bought serve but I didn't serve till I got that board.
Michael:
17!
Guest speaker:
Yeah
Michael:
How old were you when in the summer?
Guest speaker:
How old am I now
Michael:
Getting your first sale At 17 How old were you When in the summer was
Guest speaker: 26
Michael:
Interest started.
Guest speaker:
26
Michael:
I mean you got increased It'll be good in quite a short amount of time most surfers.
Guest speaker:
Remember But remember that I'm a professional athlete again I think I have the right had the advantage of of understanding what because I literally was body surfing at Big Corona beach And in Newport Beach since I was probably 10 or 12 years old So catching waves understanding waves I was ahead of
Michael:
Interesting and that is the foundation of suffering.
Guest speaker:
You know is In a good way of can I catch it which way isn't gonna go all that stuff and that I had.
Michael:
Yeah it doesn't get any more intimate then bodysurfing
Guest speaker:
And then I'll So now you've got a surfboard you can catch a wave Without can catch any way Get that one and I can get back One can get the third wave of the set after the first one.
Michael:
Yeah, interested in my by second child when he was when he was about three he's started just grabbed a bodyboard And we'll just go body voting and then this year So is six and a half this year I never pushed him into surfing Do you want to drag your body forward that's fine Code as long as you haven't Fun at the Beach that's right perfect And then and he just started standing up on his body load into expense and I picked dog in his body And then the ending a couple of months ago he just I A short board my 10 year old rides and he just grabbed it went out and just is First wave on a surfboard just say surfed it all the way and it's like oh I love fence.
Guest speaker:
All right, and I think I think there's a better success rate if you let them come to it at their own speed. You know, like, again, my kid caught his first wave with me on a board when he was 18 months old. And we always bring the toys down to the beach. And then I stopped bringing the board because he didn't, you know, didn't use the the foamy that I had formed, you know, for five years. I'm like, and he's like, where is it? I'm like you want to you bring it down to the beach. But even body eats went out when I was surfing in the body surf next to me super comfortable in the ocean. It just took him a while to want to get on a board. And I think you and I have both seen enough fathers ruin their kids, by forcing them, you know, making them have a horrible wipe out. They don't even want to know about it for five years. So you got to let them come to it at their pace. And if you're really lucky, there's a neighborhood mob that wants to serve. And if they go with the mob, they'll at least you know overcome their fears. Because the same pain is happening to all of them at the same time. So it's like Oh, it must be okay. But if if I push them on a wave and he eats shed “dad!” but if his friend tells him to go and eat shit they come up laughing right so you can't be you know you can't control it too much.
Michael:
No you can't yeah that was I had when I first said My first first child that was the advice was given to me just don't push them into it just they Just have fun yes safe experiences around the world.
Guest speaker:
24 years later my son is a a State Park lifeguard You know and he was the lifeguard at have room for Christmas so he he got into it He's good at it now.
Michael:
There's nothing more joy here with your family So there are some other big news stakes you see in that sort of intermediate adult begin to learn.
Guest speaker:
You know with With the intermediate you know When you're dealing with an adult Like for me I think everybody He wants to go to to smile before Too early right It's almost corny like out of there Really assert you know Hollywood stars Movies and it's called North Shore whatever right where he makes the guy ride from the big board work his way all the way down shortboard until you can do the successful Turn On a seven foot board Start with a nine foot data set foot you're not going to go down to a six foot Before because the The same you know situation In the same positioning the same In dynamics of that turn applause I nine foot eight foot Seven foot six foot you going to be able to do a lot more turns with the six foot board but there's Still going to require the same process and until you can prove you can put The rail in the water activate Fans compress to the turn accelerate out of it with a knife aboard you're not going to be able to do what successfully on eight seven or six everybody gets caught up with the Like can I duck dive this What do you want to do today you want to duck die 40 waves or do you want Right 40 waves But I think I think riding is more fun than duck diving.
Michael:
Yep agreed and that's so I wish I'd known what net When I started because I know I started on a toothpick short abroad and then Oh gosh was probably about five years ago Pope Francis I interviewed him and and he said He said to begin an old law Okay I just did it I was like I was living in alibris in my old law was a custom wayne rich.
Guest speaker:
Again good luck I'll tell you that
Michael:
Yeah well that's the right way there's a way in which right there I just like I couldn't believe I was having so much fun And I just exclusively work. The longboard for ages And then when the waves start turning on a job on my short board and I was so shocked about how much money At a short border I was Haven't never even served a shortboard for months what is it you know my wife’s.
Guest speaker:
It teaches You were the energy is on a wave I mean Writing a waste on the highway is super complicated Finding the energy in it how to feel How to make that make two 150 yards on a knee or waist wave you really dialed in energy feels like an all that information that transfers from the board to your feet to your ankles you know all those Small twitch muscles that figure out how to get speed its way easier on a waste to chest to head high wave you that's got all the energy in the power but now your body understands it You know how to make that same I mean I think Mickey Munoz says one of the one of my eyes have I want to live my life and he's always said there's no bad waves Just bad equipment choices If you're not having fun you didn't choose them right equipment to have fun. You know you bring out you know your skin shortboard on a waist height day you’re you're going to be you're going to you're going to hate every minute of it but you grab a mid July grab grab a longboards Grab a glider and you're just going to have a Smile and rabbit 10 foamy you are going to giggle your way 200 yards of fun more people people need to be willing to do that and not focus on oh I've got my new 6-2.
Michael:
Totally when it When it's knee high and no one and I'm giggling because I've got I live on foot divider and there's no one else all right so I have to catch up 100 ways and I have the time of my life It's the best
Guest speaker:
I had jedno make me a hot girl I love endless 11 foot we went up to the surfing heritage relational thinking that we took templates he talked to his dad got an old gun blank and I have this bitchin you know 10-10 hot girl with no fin and we'll get minus tide appear in Santa Cruz words to foot negative tide the entire top of the ocean solid seaweed it's all kill and there will be a head high well running where you cannot put bored with fins in the water I can't because I don't have those damn fans and I mean I I can go forever on this curl and it's just I mean like the Elia thing it's kind of the same the water is too cold here I'm going to be on a quarter inch thick piece of paper that's five feet long. It seems fine I'll be on top of the water but that unlimited speed that fun that you can get from point and shoot and click finding and dropping in the pocket It's just amazing and it's liberating right You're not thinking about turning you're not saying you're just thinking can I find these views with the lines that just shoot me down the lines and the I wave can be the greatest thing in the world.
Michael:
Oh yeah yeah you're right once you have the right equipment there's so much you can just paddle over there and surf with no no surfing there's 100 people there You're over there just kidding whatever novelty waves and that's the bit.
Guest speaker:
Two or three spots here long pleasure point well the wind breaks it's kind of good than it is It's a deep spot and you can't make it through on a surfboard that stands up again well that The ultimate stand up paddle place the guys that are smart enough to go surf those spots, they come out of the water exhausted grinning because they actually cut three waves that was always the same way because it disappeared when it hit that whole stood by back up and they were able to like stroke through it because 11 foot board wrote it again for another 50 yards hit the deep spot pedal through and then go again and I'm like those are the three smartest guys in the water right now because they're getting the right away but nobody else can with no competition it's like hats off, after you guys you know figuring out how to use this limited resource what's out there like what's hot tide nowadays Not even breaking that perfect line coming through the foilboard guys have that completely licked now I'm like congrats selections you're winning you'd like to we can't serve and you are last heard from getting four waves in I think there's all these ways to figure out how to have fun in the sport so let's not make it harder on ourselves by oh gotta ride this 5-10. Remember driving up and down the castle coast to coast you know I live in Santa Cruz My family's down in Newport, you're pulling I'm checking the surf all the way down the coast and I I would watch 10 guys paddle for a wave and no one catch it and then just like either watch it for like two sets for them like they're still in, they're not smart enough to put the right board Water they're so caught up in that You know littler is cooler yeah sure if it's you easy to carry but it sucks or too bad.
Michael:
It's only in surfing can you imagine if you went down to the local tennis court and there was there was 10 people playing tennis with no strings on their racket.
Guest speaker:
Even a golf yeah the pros play with blades they played with these really hard to hit clubs. You would have a miserable time if they handed those to you and you had to try to play around the golf coast so yeah make it easier not harder to foam is your friend you you can even have a small board that has extra foam you to have the center be a little thicker good everybody's calling I don't like oh I only ride 28 liters or 29 liters. I’m like if you were out deserted island you know and a 6-10 showed up would you not ride it because it's 40 liters you know the only surfboard not found my liters not going to write it I'm just gonna sit here watch the perfect waves till I get rescued you know don't let that dictate how you have fun how you grow as a surfer how can you have fun each time you go serve If you're fortunate to have two or three boards to choose them please choose wisely.
Michael:
Yes, you can never own too many surf boards.
Guest speaker:
We might discuss that spouses might discuss add even more So going back back into coaching and training I always paddle out with the aspirational board underneath me. I want you to ride the nine-foot board. Alright, the eight-foot board. If the conditions are perfect, catch a bunch of waves on the eight-foot board, but if it goes to shit, get back on the nine-foot board. I have that board with me because I don't surf when I'm working with someone. I'm not there to catch waves. I'm there to make sure you get waves. So we can trade back and forth the board that you think you want to ride. Oh, I think I want to try a quad I'll have the quad you have the thruster, or you know all have the twin fan you have the single I mean, we play that game so that the student can start experimenting in the exact same conditions what those two points will do. Another reason why it's better to be in the water. Than on land.
Michael:
I struggle with the not catching any waves thing. I mean, it's one way to..
Guest speaker:
Stop it. Stop it while you're there. But yeah, yes, there is a point where it's good to demonstrate what you want them to do. I grant that but one of the things one of the things that has made what I do successful is I'm not taking two waves out of a set. When I'm working with a client. I'm giving him my wave him or her my wave and usually it's not the a plus wave out of the set. I want to let the apex predator have that. He knows that if I was in the water, I beginning it but when that person comes back out and I'm giving the A or A minus wave to my client, they're gonna let me do that because I'm not going to take another wave. So it allows me an ability to work in a busy lineup, and I'll be accepted. I'm only I've had a lot of good waves so I can let a few go. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt. I'm just saying that that's part of what I want. You know, and again, like I agree with you, it's important like if I want them to see how the shoulder rotation should be how that turn should be done. You know, I will wait because they have to finish their way they have to be paddling back out and then I will try to catch something that I can illustrate that point on for them.
Michael:
Yeah, no, that's that's a good point. I always I quite I do like watching the surfer from closer into the shore. So sometimes I'll catch a wave and watch them to get that view because sometimes when you're looking from behind the wave, you don't get to see their technique.
Guest speaker:
You can't see where they failed, right? I agree with you. I mean, it's a little bit easier. Like when you're watching when you're trying to analyze what somebody is doing on a smaller board and how they're that they're not compressing into their turn. They're not doing that. You can't see that from behind. Right. I completely agree.
Michael:
Yeah, sometimes I'll even catch a wave and just stand on the tail in the foam and just go and I'll watch them from from there.
Guest speaker:
Yeah, I will do that all the time. Whereas I will, you know, catch that wave with them. And so that I can talk them through like or shoulder and I think that one swing thought you know, one thought per session until they master it is like you were trying to fix one thing, right? So all I'll be paddling next to him as they're going for that wave. And I'm like remember your shoulder remember your shoulder, you know, trying to get them that's the only thing going on in their head, and then I'll catch that way behind him. And if they're not doing it then I will start to verbalize to work that hey, dumbass use your shoulder.
Michael:
Can you think of any, any life lessons that you've learned directly from surfing?
Guest speaker:
Oh, sure. Adaptability. I mean, the ocean changes all the time. I think that's the number one thing that we get from being surfers is our ability to quickly adjust to changing circumstances. The tide, the wind, the crowd, everything's changing on us and we have to adapt to ride that wave as best we can. And we have to be fluid and easy with it. And overcome a mistake, you know, like hero to zero right? You have a great wave your top of the world. The next one you pearl on takeoff and gets pitched over the falls. Shake it off. Shake it off or go in. And it's like, wow, that one was on me, wasn't it? You know, and you come out laughing. I mean, one of the things always controversial is I served without a leash 99% of the time. But usually there's nobody between you and the short right? There is a group where you're taking off but if you eat shit, there's nobody between you and the beach. So the only penalty is that you have to go for a swim. And it's that swim that allows you to contemplate what your mistake was and figure it out. Especially if the waters 50 degrees. Really want to know why you are up to your neck in fifth degree water. Because I think if you have a leash on you eat shit. You pull your leash in, got your board and you're paddling out and you're thinking about your next wave. Try to get out of the way and thinking about your next week. You spent no time considering the mistake that put you in the water. Whereas if you're swimming, you have that contemplate that time to contemplate what the hell just happened. Like what's the point one of my guests wipes out? When they come back? I make them rewind the movie like what happened? What happened? Why and they have to click it back to a leash with the rail the third this you know what they did wrong. We don't spend enough time thinking about our mistakes when we're paddling back.
Michael:
To true yeah, yes surfing without a leash does.
Guest speaker:
What I when I moved to Santa Cruz, it was one of the only reasons I was tolerated. Right? And we're talking over 30 years ago, and I'm on a longboard at first peak and pleasure point and I'm the only one out there that's under 50 on a longboard and even the old guys won't start first peak. But I was tolerated because I would swim. If I ate shit. I was gone. And I was gone for 15 minutes looking for my surfboard. And it was like you're not using I wasn't using a longboard as a tool to catch more waves. I was riding it because I appreciated that style and aesthetic. And I stayed true to it. So like I said, when I lost it, it went in sometimes I went into the rocks, and I was gone for two days because I had to repair the board. So that allowed the crew that was here to accept me.
Michael:
Yeah, that's a good good point you make two is for the longboarders listening. Ask yourself that question. Are you writing a longboard so you can catch more waves? Are you riding a longboard because you like longboard.
Guest speaker:
Right and here's the here's a dead giveaway, right? You ever see somebody on a nine foot board and they haven't waxed? You know, the top three feet of the board. That guy's a jerk. He's only out there to get no way of fuck that guy. Don't let him do that. Right. So obviously there are situations where there's people in the shoreline. So if your bird goes in, it's going to hit him. You should wear leash, or it's 100% going to go into the rocks every time if you lose it you should probably wear a leash. But if there's no penalty to the equipment or to other humans, you should really try to when you get to a certain level where your consistency is pretty high to ride that board without a leash so you don't get entangled because if you're truly trying to wander around, walk further back and feel that freedom of the foot work that a longer is so fun to ride forward. Then do it without a leash so that you can really trust yourself and learn to trust yourself. Like if I see anybody in you know chest high waves or smaller wearing a leash and I kind of know where they are and I know it's not really a dangerous situation. I give them zero credit for the waves of writing for the risks they're taking because they're not taking a risk. They're not committing to that knows ride in a pitch and waist high mountain way with a leash on there's no risk. So I'm a bit of a harsh critic on that subject, but that's the way I am.
Michael:
No, I like that. And it's also when you don't have a leash. You have to finish your wave properly to.
Guest speaker:
I for me, surfing is absolutely like gymnastics or ice skating because the Olympics just started. There's the takeoff and there's the kick out and there's the performance in between that first move into a wave whether your fade left before you go right and how you kick out in control of your board. absolutely vital. You're finishing that wave with a statement what skip fries 80 years old and he finishes with dry hair. I mean, that's commitment to picking your way and knowing what you're going to do all the way to the end. And to me that's that's really the ultimate statement and how good you are.
Michael:
Yes, surfing is an art form.
Guest speaker:
Absolutely for me and then it's the only expression that I have right? Can't saying there's no painting there's nothing at all I've all I've got is a certain story. It's really important to me, I really value, the takeoff and the kick out and everything in between.
Michael:
Yeah, and I think when you have that attitude, it's it's a detail, footfall attitude, and that crosses over to the way you surf the wave as well.
Guest speaker:
Right? Really, any it's kind of it's how you finish everything right even in life. You know, do it with you know, thoughtfulness, right? How is this going? To end how I've started this endeavor? How is it going to finish?
Michael:
Yes, every surfer is worried about how they look in the carpark Am I holding down the beach, and then they just jump off a wave and let the leash go. And it just almost spoils the whole thing. If I'm wearing a leash, I'm still trying not to use my leash.
Guest speaker:
Hey! I don't trust leashes. I tell people that all the time. It's like, I hope you're a good swimmer because you know at some point the leash is going to break when you do that. And you are a long way from the shore. You know like I absolutely they're great to have I don't trust them at all. Guys that I would say to me sometimes like, you know, you should have a leash. You know, you just ate shit. I'm like, if I have a leash wiping out next to you. I'm going to my board is gonna hit you and him and him. I mean it's a 10 foot board and a 10 foot leash. It's a 20 foot swath of destruction. If I don't have a leash, it hits the water and it goes and now it's 100 yards away. So you don't want to have a leash on a longboard and a guy that eats ship right around you. It just stays there like a karate chop trying to kill everybody.
Michael:
And I can spring back at you to.
Guest speaker:
Absolutely.
Michael:
Where do you think so things going? It's blown up in the last couple years with COVID and everything.
Guest speaker:
It's growing and I think it's growing in and it'll be interesting to see and I want it to in the best wishes that I have that people will go from the foamies to quality surfboards to understanding you know, the effort that is made to build a surfboard to build the products that we use. I mean, you I see people that are that are buying a $700 wetsuit and they've got a $99 surfboard you know, it's kind of the other way around. Well, that's just gonna last you one or two years that if you buy a good surfboard, like the Wayne rich behind you, it's gonna last you 25 years and then your kid's gonna be riding it. I mean, I have boards that are older than I am. Right so surfboards last so I think this new generation of surfers is going to come to understand I want them to come come to understand how much effort is put into the equipment that we ride and the environment that we ride them in. So for me, we have a huge influx of new surfers. And if they all understand that and understand the environment and how important it is, then it's a good thing. I mean yes, the waters crowded, but if it's crowded with, you know another million people that are going to care about taking care of the environment. I can live with that.
Michael:
It's a good message is there anything else that you would like to talk to the demographic about?
Guest speaker:
Never surfed in Santa Cruz. It's it's dangerous sharks the worst place to ever go. But yeah, no, I mean that's really that's really the message that that I think that I want that I feel better about with the people that I bring into surfing is that the understand more about kind of a limited resource that the ocean and the near shore environment is and how important it is to take care of. And it's nice that you know people do that they see that they understand it and they try to be a part of that.
Michael:
And equipment wise I think that this is the difference between $100 Costco board and a wayne rich custom.
Guest speaker:
I mean, unfortunately those boards at Costco produces disintegrate. So rapidly and are so environmentally toxic. It's hard. I mean, I find these were fun. I get it. But those are like the worst of the worst. They literally disintegrate and peel apart and are the worst polluting things I've ever seen. So I think a more environmentally friendly, foamy safe board. I mean, when I was learning how to surf, it was used boards that had been repaired 25 times open fractures on the rails that would cut you and it was horrible, right? Hard to learn. So now we have foamies and there are higher quality levels of foamies, right, the Costco being literally the lowest technology in the phony way of going and I think cap surf makes a really good one. And there's a whole bunch of them that are out there that are great. And they're they're actually all virtually all made the same factory, but the more expensive they are that means the better materials and the longer the last. And I think that's our responsibility is to try to find things that last. Not that you can return at Costco in three months if it broke, breaks, but that it lasts you for three, four or five years. And that's a good lifespan. But either way in rich in the last 25 to 50 years.
Michael:
Yeah, I mean it is it is nice to learn on a soft top. It's a little safer and for everyone involved. But I mean I've got I've got a soft top but it's an INTP.
Guest speaker:
Rainbow colors on those. It guys are amazing. There's a guy Jim Richardson in Hawaii, who has a company called surf light and he builds a foamy where he builds an EPS like, like like a snowboard inside. That's the rocker and and gives it the flex and then he puts EPP which is boogie board foam. He glues that around it. Buggyboard foam does not absorb water. EPP doesn't evolve. So he skins it with the EPP and then he puts another little skin on the outside. This surfboard looks like an average foamy, but you can cut it in half it will not absorb water at all. I've had one for 15 years of ways the exact same as the day that I got it and it's got claw nails for my dog in it. It's been thin cut, it will not absorb water, but the problem is as a foamy it cost the exact same as a brand new custom surfboard. But it's a foamy that I taught my kid on i I've got probably 20 People that have talked to all their kids on it and it's indestructible. So surf light, you know there are solutions to the foaming problem. We just have to be willing to pay for Jim Richardson. Look it up. He's in Hawaii.
Michael:
Yeah. Yeah. For listeners. I'll find the website. I'll put a link to it in the show notes for listeners. Yeah. Is there any other anything anywhere else you'd like to point people and the surf industry?
Guest speaker:
No. I mean, I think there's great quality out of manufacturers from from board shorts to wetsuits, to surfboards that are out there, and it's it's looking in the community that you live I like to spend my dollar level like you got to rain rich, right? If you're in Malibu, Ventura, Santa Barbara, what a phenomenal shaper to get a surfboard from you're in Northern California. We've got our half a dozen of great local hardcore guys that have been here forever. Nick Powell and Trini from source. We've got Travis Reynolds. You know, we've got, you know, just great guys that are up here. And that's what you should do. Because it looks good when you walk down the beach with a board that was handmade in the town that you're at.
Michael:
Yeah, yeah. Not only that, but now you're progressing from a soft top to a to a hard longboard. If you wouldn't go to wayne rich custom. You're never going to grow out of that boat, no matter how good you get.
Guest speaker:
And as I like to point out to people, you know, if you get a brand new, six, two, and you ride it all year long, it's gonna disintegrate. And be done at the end of that year. You get a brand new nine, two, and you're gonna have it for decades. So literally, there are exponentially more long boards in the world than there are short boards because the short boards disintegrate and die every year 50% of the phone made every year is over eight feet long. So half the boards every year are over eight feet long and those boards survive. Yeah, there's there's got to be less than 5% that die that first year and getting broken or whatever. 75% of those short boards are gone by the end of the year.
Michael:
I do have I love short boarding and if the waves turn on, that's what I want to be on. To me. The waves hardly ever justify being on a short board.
Guest speaker:
But again, you're playing the game the way I exactly like it where you're applying the right equipment to the wave conditions. So they're in good shape. When you're ready to ride them, but it's like oh, it's only this I'm going to ride that board. You know, that's why you want to have that's where the quiver comes from right?
Michael:
In my opinion is if you are not if surfing is not a sport and a career for you. There's no need for you to be on a short board all the time.
Guest speaker:
All the time. Correct. Absolutely. It's great to have him it's great to know how to ride him, but you want to have those other tools that you can have more fun with. We're out there to have fun, right?
Michael:
There's something I really like about you is whenever you see you surfing or talk about surfing or look at anything from you, it's there's always an element of fun around it. And
Guest speaker:
Why would you be doing it? Why would why would I still be reading about the next trip I'm doing in three weeks going down to Costa Rica if I didn't think it was gonna be unlimited fun.
Michael:
Unlimited fun. I love that.
Guest speaker:
We like to say endless fun, but that's just a play on the on the movies.
Michael:
Yeah, that's a great place to leave it. Thank you so much for your time and really appreciate it.
Guest speaker:
Cheers. Absolutely enjoyable.
George Stoy is a professional surf and alpine sports instructor who has developed a specific way of teaching surfing. In the early 2000's George's curiosity led him to look at other sports with more established coaching frameworks to bring into his surf school.
We discuss what it means to be a coach, the role of the coach, the eclectic nature of individual surfing motives, surfboard attitude, performance strands and much more.
We talk about the science of wave energy & how to use it by moving correctly. How getting closer to this energy affects the nervous system and why we keep running away from the waves power. And all the training to put it all into practice is here:
https://train.ombe.co/?via=surfmastery